My Country (South Africa) is headed for Civil War...

Originally posted by ANNED

Start Internet sites and spread rumors and fake stories that pit one group against another.

why the hell would anyone want to do that!
we want solutions, and for the madness to stop, not start wars!
jeezzzz!!!

reply to post by GerhardSA

I wonder what rumors we could spread to start black civil war (based, I assume on tribal affiliation)? Hey Zulus, everytime you buy a beer the Xhosa barmaid takes a wee in it? Hey Sothos, the Vendas are bewitching you with AIDS? Ha, ha - no most South Africans are street savvy by now.
Although, violence always provokes (as we had with the Inkatha-ANC war in the early 1990s), but violence can also backfire.
No, we should focus on reducing violence, no matter how hard fighting the anger is - and it's been a long anger in SA for whites to behold.

Originally posted by nazgul1
The title of the tread proves that parallel universes exist. The South Africa I live is not heading for a civil war. Do you really think that we black South Africans want to kill whites? Get a life man! (and stop listening to radio 702, try some Led Zep)

The vast majority of South Africans (black and white) are going about their lives normally. They interact with each other daily with no real problems.

The reality you live in, is not reflective of the rest of the country.

Amen!

Once again we see a good example of mass hysteria. The far lefts and the far rights are at each other's throats (so what's new?) and suddenly we're on the brink of civil war?!

A minority of blacks and a minority of whites hate each other. Always have. Always will. Someone will step up to fill Eugene T's shoes (and this person's appearance is long overdue). Take Malema out of the picture and it's just a matter of time before someone else takes his place. It's the way of things. Opposite poles. Nothing we can do about it (them)...

South Africa will always be on the brink of civil war in someone's eyes. In the 60's we had the Sharpeville massacre. Somewhere someone said "this is the beginning of a civil war". It didn't come. In the 70's we had the Soweto uprising. Somewhere someone said "this is the beginning of a civil war". It didn't come. In the 80's things were getting so bad that Botha declared a State of Emergency. Somewhere someone said "this is the beginning of a civil war". It didn't come. In 1990 Mandela was released from jail. Somewhere someone said "this is the beginning of a civil war". It didn't come. In 1994 the first "democratic election" was held. Somewhere someone said "this is the beginning of a civil war". It didn't come. In 2009 Jacob Zuma was elected president. Somewhere someone said "this is the beginning of a civil war". It didn't come.

We can go through the (recent) history of South Africa, and we'll find the political situation almost at breaking point at any given moment. From the day Chris Hani was assassinated, to the day Eugène Terre'Blanche's cronies drove a car through the World Trade Centre, to the day Eugène Terre'Blanche's cronies tried to invade Bophuthatswana in a beat up old Mercedes...

Politics is simply something that goes hand-in-hand with "South Africa". Full stop.

Meanwhile the majority of us are trying to go on with our lives. We don't hate anyone. We go to work. We go home. We relax in front of the telly... And in that moment the media fills our heads with images of the left-wingers or the right-wingers swinging angry fists and somewhere someone thinks "Oh no! This is it..."

Actually it's the same BS. Just a different day. South Africa is no more headed for a civil war than it was ten years ago, twenty years ago, or fifty years ago...

So, in conclusion. Yes, Julius Malema is bad news. If he gets his way, there will be a civil war and a genocide. But we're not there yet. Stop worrying about him, because by worrying about him, and talking about him you're empowering him. He WANTS you to fear him. Don't give him that pleasure.

reply to post by Gemwolf

A good post and sentiment, I find.
But are you sure there was no civil war in the 1980s and early 1990s? The End Conscription Campaign slogan was certainly "No conscription for civil war" when the troops were forced into the townships around 1986, and the states of emergencey. The pre-election years were certainly civil war, some say organized by a third-force. The days of Boipatong, St James Church, Heidelberg Tavern, Bisho and countless other massacres. We had civil war from 1986-1994. Maybe because of the relative segregation between communities suburban whites didn't notice it so much. But boy, we had a harsh civil war.
Thousands of people died and the country stood in flames. Inkatha members attacked the townships from their hostels with machine guns, and vice-versa. They even attacked the ANC headquarters at Shell House and we had machine gun battles in Joburg. That was civil war.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Subjective Truth

 

Erm, but before they get round to eating each other: we taste a lot better. Apparently we taste like chicken.

For some reason this deeply worries me.

Originally posted by halfoldman

 

That was civil war.

No, that was just a bit of african style fun.

But you're right, how "intense" must a civil war be to earn the title?

The sporadic nature of the violence doesn't mean it's peaceful in between?

reply to post by halfoldman


I'm sure we can call what happened in the 80's a civil war. As I typed the post it occurred to me that by definition there has been an ongoing civil war in SA for more than 90 years...

Definitions of civil war on the Web:
a war between factions in the same country

Definitions of war on the Web:
the waging of armed conflict against an enemy; "thousands of people were killed in the war"

But if you think about it: compared to real wars, those were mere scuffles. Our boys that went to the Border will smile and tell you that we have no idea what a war is. Jews, Bosnians and Ugandans will laugh out loud at the thought that we'd like to call it civil war...

We've seen some horrible acts of violence against our fellow South Africans (black and white) - and we still see it on a daily basis. You’ll find hate. You’ll find murders. But it’s not war.

reply to post by Gemwolf

Well what happened in SA was largely labelled "black-on-black" violence. It was Inkatha vs. the ANC (some said Zulu vs. Xhosa - but that's an oversimplification). Most of it took place in Natal, that was definately the focus of the violence.
The whites had nothing to do with it directly, although there is proof that they armed Inkatha and there are rumours of the hostel dwellers being driven into the township with police vans.
For its size SA is still a sparsely populated place outside the urban centres, and apartheid planning made sure the townships were distanced from white suburbs. But it was a really paranoid feeling back then, especially after Chris Hani was assassinated (an inside ANC job organized by the CIA, blamed on a clueless Polish patsy).
Whites didn't escape the violence completely. APLA attacked several civilian white targets, and I remember a girl from college who was at the St James church when the killers came. Every person in that church would have been executed if two guys didn't have fire arms. She got away with a slight injury from a nail bomb, and I remember that she started smoking after that. Another APLA attack on a Bahai congregation in the eastern Cape killed everyone, except the black members, who were told to leave.

Originally posted by nazgul1
The title of the tread proves that parallel universes exist. The South Africa I live is not heading for a civil war. Do you really think that we black South Africans want to kill whites? Get a life man! (and stop listening to radio 702, try some Led Zep)

The vast majority of South Africans (black and white) are going about their lives normally. They interact with each other daily with no real problems.

The reality you live in, is not reflective of the rest of the country.

I could not agree more with this!!

What the hell is everyone talking about here?

I get the impression that all the South African expats (traitors) are writing these crazy comments because they have come to the realization that they ran away from a non existent problem and are now trying to fuel a race war from abroad so that they can now justify there miserable existence overseas and say "see we told you so".

Yes there are hotspots such as Ventersdorp and if you are gonna start quoting crime statistics spare me the propaganda that is once again generated by sensationalism and mass hysteria.

I honestly have yet to see the signs of civil war as we are all going about our normal daily lives here at the moment and I live in Johannesburg.

You expats need to seriously get over yourselves and go sit in the pubs and rather forget about the slice of paradise you voluntarily gave up when you abandoned ship.

Stop fueling the media with nonsense and stop throwing stones from the other side of the fence.

Dammit we have one of the most beautiful countries in the world and some of the most incredible opportunities to continue making it a success.

Edit: Removed by author.

[edit on 8/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I saw your post before you removed it - so I'm going to respond in any case.

Yes, SA has a very high crime rate - but it's simply not true that it's mostly/fairly race related. Yes, there is a problem with murders on commercial farmers - these are (mostly) race related. But compared to the other crimes they are but a drop in the ocean.

Whites and blacks are hurt by crime alike. SA is in fact (and in no way am I proud to say this) the rape capital of the world.

Statistics

Looking at it from that point of view we can perhaps deduce that we have a sexism problem and not a racism problem?

The idea that only white people suffer under crime or black criminals target only white folks is ludicrous.

Perhaps a general look at race and crime in society in general is in order?


[edit on 8-4-2010 by Gemwolf]

reply to post by Artificium

I honestly have yet to see the signs of civil war as we are all going about our normal daily lives here at the moment and I live in Johannesburg.

Well, when you think with this logic-

"In Zimbabwe you have addressed the land question. In South Africa we are just starting. We are happy today we can account for 300 000 new farmers, compared to 4 000 farmers that were there. "We hear you are going straight into the mines. That is what we are going to start doing in South Africa. We want the mines.

They (whites) have exploited our minerals for a long time - now is our turn to also enjoy our minerals. "Today they are so bright, they are colourful - we refer to them as white people. Maybe this colour came as a result of exploiting our minerals. "Perhaps if some of us can get the opportunities to these minerals, we can develop a nice colour and look like them," said Malema to wild cheers from the Zanu-PF crowd.

www.thestar.co.za...

So, Malema blatantly threatening to claim white farmer's land, is not signs of a war?

You need to wake up...

Here is yet another article on it... www.timeslive.co.za...

[edit on 23/01/2010 by jinx880101]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
I have to wonder if a Race war was to erupt in South Africa, what would the rest of the world do?

I could certainly see it igniting old tensions here in Australia.

It would spark 1 or 2 violent incidents at least.

reply to post by bobs_uruncle

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle

I hate to tell you, but that's what CI was doing between the Zulu and the Xhosa (and the Sotho). It's an old trick, pit your enemies against each other and then send in a clean-up crew. While you're at it sell weapons to both sides professing you support only one at a time and lend them the money to buy the weapons. That way, it doesn't matter who wins the battles, you win the war.

This is Rothschild 101 re. Waterloo and Napoleon, or Churchill and Hitler if you prefer (with a little Prescott Bush mixed in for ol' G Dubyah).

Cheers - Dave

My thoughts exactly. Only Thing is SA is not your average or normal country. We've gone from Pariah state to Shining Example to the weird and confused kid that seems to be developing learning problems the older he gets..

The population mixture of SA is unique as are it's assets and and the structures that holds them.

How will this affect the normal people in SA?

On the subject of Hypothesising what a South African civil war would look like if it did happen (Which it won't) I think it would resemble the Lebanese civil war (which was very ugly indeed).
-Started with a High profile Assassination
-Many different cultures and factions
-Plenty of resources to control to keep factions financed
-A half interested West

Way over simplified maybe but personally I see many paralells

well, then expect the Gold/Diamond mines to be under seige by the global puppet masters. ... as they are of upmost strategic value,


buy gold futures now to sell, when the SHTF in the S.A. battle zone.

Originally posted by jinx880101
...

So, Malema blatantly threatening to claim white farmer's land, is not signs of a war?

You need to wake up...
...

[edit on 23/01/2010 by jinx880101]

Malema may be under the impression that he is speaking for the government or as the next president. Yes, he's very dangerous, and if he's given enough power there will be war. But if you take a careful look you'll notice that the ANC is quietly distancing themselves from Malema. And not only the ANC, but the country in general. No one is blind to his agenda. Sadly his followers are increasing in numbers thanks to the media (it opens the door for people that shares his point of view)...

The PAC:

ANC Youth League president Julius Malema is getting some fabulous press by saying stupid and irresponsible things. So what to do if you are Malema’s political competitor? Say more stupid and more irresponsible things of course, and all the better if it’s about him personally. Like, for example, “we will kill you”.
...
At a media conference on Friday this all burst open, and Mphasha reportedly said: "We are saying to Malema to apologise within five days or we will injure him to death... He will either end up in a hospital or in a mortuary."

Source

The University of Johannesburg:

"The university has refrained from commenting on Mr Malema's statements until now because we wanted to authenticate his comments," vice chancellor and principal Ihron Rensburg said.

"This has now been done and the university wishes to distance itself from Mr Malema's statements."

The institution supported the right to free speech and encouraged it on its campuses but "it neither condones nor encourages comments that are potentially inflammatory, provocative and defamatory".
Source

Cosatu:

A warning uttered recently by Zwelinzima Vavi, Cosatu general secretary, should ring alarm bells for President Jacob Zuma, even though Vavi, an ideologue par excellence, might have been motivated by more than comradely concern for Zuma and his administration.

Addressing the South African Municipal Workers Union, Vavi warned that the credibility of the Zuma administration with the poorer sectors of the black community is in danger of evaporating and, concomitantly, the patience of residents in woefully or badly served townships is approaching breaking point.
Source

The ANC:

ANC Youth League president Julius Malema’s racial outburst at a student rally will be taken up with him by the ANC, the party said.
...
Mnisi said the African National Congress did not promote racist utterances.

“We wouldn’t appreciate any statements against any member of our society, including whites… they are also South Africans,” he said, adding that the Freedom Charter said South Africa belonged to all who live in it.
...
“All that we are saying is that any derogatory, undermining statement whether to opposition parties or our own people, we disapprove of them,” he said.
Source

And so on and so forth.

We may not have the most efficient leaders in the history of time. But they're not as stupid as you may think.

On a side note: Be careful what you wish for...


[edit on 8-4-2010 by Gemwolf]

Gemwolf, excellent reply, BUT.

At what point does crime become SO organised as to be endemic? It's not poor blacks from soweto taking the cash vans. That's trained military.

Where is all that cash going even? I've heard several "rumours" of private training camps ... true or false, i cannot confirm, but are private militias possible in SA? i would think very likely... and if you have a private army, you need large amounts of cash.

Add to that the Nigerian scurge, drugs, prostitues, and anything else illegal. And the millions of war scared veterans of the Congo and elsewhere in Africa that have made their own "groot trek" south?

The systematic dismantling of the military and police, both permanent and volunteer really does give the impression that this chaos is engineered, and that the flames are being intentionally fanned.

The other truth of course, is that race to us means black and white, whereas to them it becomes xhosa, tswana, zulu, tsonga, somali, etc. When the victim could be any of 20 different races, who is really counting racist incidents vs anything else?

I do agree that woman are the most badly off in the whole fight. With the children, old people too, and anyone else who is weaker than the men ...

Dont know about a full-out civil war, but there is a lot of tenshion in the country from what ive been reading.

news.bbc.co.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Also, im sure I read that they've threatend to cause most trouble during the world cup.
They better not though, because that will bug a lot of people world-wide who've been waiting to watch this for the last 4 years!

[edit on 8/4/10 by Esrom Escutcheon Esquire]

reply to post by harryhaller


I'm not sure which of my replies you are replying to - but I gather that it's in response to my post about race and crime. (I fear we may be wandering too far from the topic?)

(Just for clarity - the post that Dark Ghost removed suggested that crimes are generally race motivated, to which I responded by disagreeing.)

That said - I agree with you. There are no clear statistics when it comes to race - especially ethnicity (Xhosa, Zulu, etc.). With the recent Xenophobia problems we saw in full colour that (hate) crime amongst black people are not uncommon.

And I also agree that a lot of our crime is the result of organized crime or "syndicates". And most of these syndicate leaders are foreigners. In my opinion local criminals do crime to survive (this does not forgive it - especially not the violence we see with these crimes) and the rest come to South Africa to get rich. Most probably because of the lack of a police force and a law system with a back bone.

Cape Town are becoming a hot spot for human traffickers, Durban and Cape Town are great head quarters for drug lords, where Gauteng is typically infested by hi-jacking syndicates and 419 scammers (fraud). And in most cases you will find that the guy at the top of the chain is a foreigner...

But as I said. That's a bit from the point. The bottom line is that the crime problem is not a white against black or black against white problem.

Originally posted by Gemwolf
reply to post by harryhaller

 

I'm not sure which of my replies you are replying to - but I gather that it's in response to my post about race and crime.

But as I said. That's a bit from the point. The bottom line is that the crime problem is not a white against black or black against white problem.

Yes, the race and crime post.

I agree entrely on it not being racially motivated in the whole.

I can only point out that we westerners don't entirely understand the concept of tribalism as the africans do. Especially with regards to leadership.

I disagree that it's foreign. The foreign criminals are the Rothchilds etc. And the occasional other crime syndicate taking advantage of the chaos.

What i'm pointing to though is the ANC using crime to it's own advantage. Both through tendtrepreneurship to finance the "gangs" and the political connections to keep safe. See Selebi, and Shaik(s).

So we cannot see crime: robbings, hijackings etc, as seperate from the political stage. Malema is part of that. I believe his recent zim trip was to obfuscate Zille's plees to the world bank. Again, politics, crime and self enrichment via state apperatus are linked. What i KNOW is that everybody is talking about Malema, and ET, almost no-one about the billions in bad loans we're about to be given.

The ANC does not want white farmers, or citizens for that.
The ANC does not want opposition, or to be questioned.
The ANC does not want to ever leave office.

What would you call it, if a ruling minority, essentially declares war (even if through neglect) on everyone else? Is that a civil war? Or is that a dictatorship?