Wikileaks Video Released!!

I think a solution to this problem is a competent and sufficient education system of the entire public, coupled with the elimination of alluring incentives from the benefactors of war.

Just brainstorming here. Must think prevention in my opinion, or else scenarios such as these will just keep 'rolling in'.

reply to post by Gumerk


While I love a conspiracy as much as anyone, I highly doubt this was a hit. There was no reason to assassinate Namir Noor-Eldeen (as far as we know).

Plus, the context of the entire video does not suggest a planned hit, but rather a "heat of the moment" attack due to stress and prior combat engagement.

Originally posted by guidanceofthe third kind
reply to post by nvprose1

 

Spare me. I can see a camera slung over someones shoulder from at least 35 feet and tell the difference. You are trying to tell me that at the equivalent distance, or closer, an apache pilot cant? You must be nuts.

But yet, the Apache was not 35 feet away...

Okay, so I want to take a more objective look at the footage. I've watched the video again and I believe this tragic occurrence is a combination of genuine misunderstanding and an overzealous few in the military who want to shoot because they think it's fun. Look at this pic of the footage early on. You see two guys with straps over their shoulders.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b6ed2458734a.jpg[/atsimg]

So first, keep in mind these troops have been over there for a long time now and they've seen a lot more insurgency than you and I have seen. They know what to look for. Seeing guys with straps on their shoulders in a group in public probably set off alarm bells.

You also have to think about one other thing - why were war photographers in this area to begin with? Probably for the same reason the military was - this particular area was hot! So let's assume the area is hot (hot with insurgent activity), a crowd appears and you see men with guns and two with shoulder straps - we'll get to the guns next.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/175e47ba7d95.jpg[/atsimg]

While the still frame of the above pic doesn't look like much, in the video you can tell that these objects are clearly rifles. The appearance of guns in a crowd adds to the tension. It's what happens next that send the helicopter guys into a tizzy.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cb33b1f116c6.jpg[/atsimg]

The camera guy, Saeed, peers around a corner with a huge telephoto lens on a camera to get a shot of something. Remember we've already established that this must be a hot area, hence the reason why the war photographers and the military are here in the first place. From the air, it's not really clear what this is. But if I were a chopper pilot who was used to seeing RPG carriers take the same stance from around a corner with an RPG launcher, I'd be on red alert, too.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/47c0d3f1a028.jpg[/atsimg]

Another shot of Saeed with his telephoto lens and the shadow it cast.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8146a5a48292.jpg[/atsimg]

Here's a zoom of Saeed with his telephoto lens in the above pic. Now I want you to look at this pic here. This is not a pic from this event:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/096ce33f9ce6.jpg[/atsimg]

Notice the bottom of the RPG launcher. I've grayscaled the image and blurred it to match what the black and white image in the chopper cam would look like. There's a striking similarity between a telephoto lens and the bottom of an RPG launcher, especially when the image is blurry. Do you see how a mistake could have been made at that point?

Now, that being said, this is the point in the video where I start to lose faith in some human beings.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/761344203797.jpg[/atsimg]

The above still has the guy's single word summary as he surveys the carnage they've just unleashed - "Nice".

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bb3442c11a7f.jpg[/atsimg]

Now when the van comes up, I honestly CANNOT make out that what is circled in red in the pic above are children. I can't tell that they are even people until they start moving because the quality of the video is so bad and it's in black and white.

[continued]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f1b0c4567b29.jpg[/atsimg]

At this point, the military guys sound trigger happy. They've wiped out the crowd and shouldn't expect to be in any immediate danger, unless they honestly thought someone was going to scoop up a weapon off the ground and open fire with it. Highly doubtful as the people from the van were carrying wounded, not equipment, into the vehicle.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8b32b89d9492.jpg[/atsimg]

Statements like these make be shake my head in disbelief. It's one thing to be smug about capital punishment in this country, but it's quite another to take sheer delight in the deaths and carnage of war. I'm not sure if the guys making these statements are/were suffering from combat fatigue or are just genuinely that lacking in heart. But to me they aren't fit for duty again until they see a shrink. Of course these events were two years ago, so who knows what happened to them.

Originally posted by OrphenFire
reply to post by Gumerk

 

While I love a conspiracy as much as anyone, I highly doubt this was a hit. There was no reason to assassinate Namir Noor-Eldeen (as far as we know).

Plus, the context of the entire video does not suggest a planned hit, but rather a "heat of the moment" attack due to stress and prior combat engagement.

So you're agreeing that it was not intentional as to what everyone else is saying here?

Myself, I saw absolutely nothing in the video that would cause me to believe any of these people were armed .

It is clear , that they were aware of the helicopters' presence , as is evidenced by the fact that more than one of them looked DIRECTLY at it in the video .

And yet , not one of them so much as even 'pointed' at it .

If you couldn't tell that those were clearly not rifles strapped over those guys' shoulders , then you sure as hell have no business being in command of a gunship !

Take a real close look at the two guys who pause by the utility pole . One of them takes his 'non-AK-47' and stands it on the ground and starts to take the straps loose that holds his 'non-AK-47' together . It is clear to me that this was a camera tripod that he was in the process of 'unfolding'.

Now, for those of you who are surely going to tell me that I am full of sh*t , well I want you to look again . Really CLOSE. Stop the video and tell me how 'tall' this 'non-AK-47' is compared to the guy who is SETTING IT UP !

It clearly comes up to his torso section.

My AK-47 , fixed wooden stock , does not even come up to my waistline . It is just a little over 34" . NOWHERE near the length of this guy's TRIPOD.

This is a DISPICABLE thing that these VIDEO-GAME cowboys did .

They were not under fire. They were not engaging any hostile enemy combatant .

This was MURDER.

I hope they get exactly what they deserve .

Originally posted by lagenese
reply to post by Reign02

 

This is not a war, it's genocide, pure and simple, and many of these soldiers are brainwashed to kill, kill, kill... This madness must end.

[edit on 5-4-2010 by lagenese]

It is not genocide dude........ we are not killing every Muslim or Islamic person..... your post is dumb and you should learn a thing or two about what really goes on in Iraq. Judging by your post you have never been. WE DO NOT KILL everyone and everything.... you are ignorant

Ok ... my apologies if this sounds condescending for it is not meant as such ...

Many of you aren't using sound reasoning and/or gleaning the meaning of today's WL release.

Namely that hindisight and video analysis aren't required to evaluate that fateful day's events.

There is one inescapable truth that speaks loudest of all ... and that is simply that:

The military doesn't withhold information or lie about Righteous Kills!

There's only ONE valid reason for them to do so and that is that THEY know it wasn't!


[edit on 5 Apr 2010 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by sos37


Your posts are greatly appreciated. Very good critical analysis of what could be going through these soldiers' minds.

I do not doubt that they are alert and a little too stressed by being in a combat situation. But as you point out, the engagement of the van is mainly what baffles me.

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by Reign02

 

As a military myself, I have to say you are partially wrong.

Yes, there was a RPG among them, some were armed. And the guy in the van was stupid for stopping with children in his van. He was stupid because he tried to be a good person in a time where everyone was being bad.




BUT there are ROE (rules of engagement).

You CAN'T fire like you want, and the joke that this gunner and his superior try to make by asking each-other if they are supposed to open fire, just to keep in record that they talked between them "asking for permission" is just stupid.

The gunner is pumped up in adrenaline, and is completely (in lack of a better word) unprofessional and unethical.

From the attitude with which he analyzes his targets and is completely trigger happy, to the fact that he doesn't even care to where he is shooting (in case many people have forgotten about it, there is a house where they keep firing at, which, they don't know if it's full of insurgents or full of innocent people).


But mostly, what concerns me the most, is the ease with which orders are given without any respect for ROE's.

He just asked his superior to open fire....what the hell of permission is that?...

You are in the military but judging by your post you must be one that doesn't leave the base when you go downrange. Insurgents stay within the population so that they can hide and cower in people's houses so when they do get killed or injured more than likely we will injure civilians in the process. It is called strategy for propaganda dude.... That is all they can do to try to get the population on their side...

Originally posted by guidanceofthe third kind
reply to post by nvprose1

 

Spare me. I can see a camera slung over someones shoulder from at least 35 feet and tell the difference. You are trying to tell me that at the equivalent distance, or closer, an apache pilot cant? You must be nuts.

oh sorry i didn't know you were a combat veteran...
what was/is your rank, MOS and branch?

reply to post by sos37


Right I just watched the video again and at this point I honestly think the heli cannon shooters are already SECOND GUESSING their killing and therefore want to make sure there are no survivors as witnesses!!

That's why their freaking out -- swearing F!! -- to make sure they can "engage" a van with no sign of weapons, etc. The van is not there to pick up weapons -- because there are NO WEAPONS.

And the dudes with the CAMERA BAGS are clearly not carrying weapons yet that is the whole first claim of weapons. We've got two guys with weapons -- yet the camera bags don't look like weapons at all!

So after it's claimed the camera bags are weapons then the tripods must also be weapons as well.... But after this innocent group of civilians gets mowed down in a massacre then the soldiers start to realize -- subconsciously -- that they were no weapons.

And so the van must be destroyed as well.

35 feet?
Not on this trip.
M230

muzzle velocity 2,641 ft/s
Shots fired / view of rounds impacting target over 1 second later on viewfinder
Helo was over a half mile away.
Effective range 1,640 yards
Max Range 4,920 yards.

Originally posted by Clisen33

Originally posted by OrphenFire
reply to post by Gumerk

 

While I love a conspiracy as much as anyone, I highly doubt this was a hit. There was no reason to assassinate Namir Noor-Eldeen (as far as we know).

Plus, the context of the entire video does not suggest a planned hit, but rather a "heat of the moment" attack due to stress and prior combat engagement.

So you're agreeing that it was not intentional as to what everyone else is saying here?

No I do not think this was an intentional hit or assassination on these men. I think it was a horrible mistake by the pilots and gunners.

For the Xth time: especially the attack on the van. That was murder.

Finished watching the 18 minute version. I can't describe how I feel, Basically it involves feelings of nausea and utter disgust. I'm shocked at what I just watched. I tried to watch this at work, but had to stop. I just finished watching it at home.

I can only imagine the last moments of those murdered (they were murdered). It's amazing that the lucky ones died instantly. Not sure what I can do, other then sit and reflect.

This video is just a small small part of what has and is taking place there. This war has been going on for the better part of a Decade, and yet we are still there with no real plans of exiting. What was started with Bush's Administration continues with the Obama Administration... And sadly it will not end in the foreseeable future.

I've seen other videos and have heard accounts of things like this taking place. It's sickening to see it. Eye opening, cliche as it is, can't even describe the implications of this video.

The fact that the Military has publicly lied about the incident is even more gut wrenching. The spin machine is in full effect as this enters the MSM. What does that say about other incidents? Volumes.

It's almost as if our Military has the motivation and lack of human empathy that Nazi Germany had during WW2. What have we let them become? Really?

I don't think I will be able to forget this video for as long as I live. The sound of the Pilot/ Gunner whining for the ability shoot more is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. Then laughing at the carnage and mocking the wounded children is too much.

THIS IS EVIL.

The Van being shot while the occupants were trying to rescue the wounded was just too much. Those involved with the initial actions and cover up must stand for trial. Something...

THIS IS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY in full view.... And yet, Tiger Woods 24/7.

I guess they finally found WMDs in Iraq. Sad thing is it was our guys.

The point is, that this was horrific. We need to get out of Iraq now. It's that simple. Some other points:

The attack on the Van was unnecessary.
The Children should have been airlifted to military hospital (they would have gotten better care and gotten there faster)
The bastards in the choppers were/are animals, no better than any terrorist
There was a coverup filled with lies.
The entire attack was unnecessary in my opinion (of course proper context is missing, but what I've read of the incident is showing that they didn't have cause to believe these were combatants and there was no firefight and this was not in the middle of an anti terror mission/sweep)
Why would you drive over a body on the ground? That's disturbing.

Sure I know that war is hell and bad stuff happens to good people and the fog of war, confusion of war and stress on the soldiers explains alot but this is still a horrific incident that needn't have occured.

Those on this thread who are defending the actions in this video, i find disturbing. There is no defending this action. Let's call it like it is and make sure it doesn't happen again. On the other hand, we know that all soldiers/marines etc. are not like this and are doing the best they can in bad situations.

Why shouldn't we leave Iraq?

reply to post by sos37


I agree that under an intense situation the chopper pilots could assume these people were hostile and possibly be armed. Like you stated, the pilots were in no danger and no other people appeared in danger. The pilots simply labeled the targets as fighters saw what they wanted and plead with their commander for permission to fire. They could have observed a while longer, they could have waited. The audio transmission was clear there were no available units in the immediate area so what was the rush. The rush seems to be to kill.

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029

Originally posted by jeddun
Ok, i just watched it again for the third time and i honestly don't see what everyone here is bitching about. Clearly these were scumbags up to no good. It's not unusual for war correspondents to be killed on duty, been happening ever since wars and cameras. They know the risks. I myself saw weapons on some of the targets. I feel they did a great job and got nice clean kills. Good for them. And ill say it again...this area of the world contributes ZERO, all we get from them is female genital mutilation, human rights violations and evil railings against you, me and freedom. They want us to turn back the clocks a thousand years and have all women kiss their boots..is this what you want for your children...i say they didn't kill enough...and if my comment is too much for your sensibilities...too bad...go hug a tree, move to Iraq and make a difference, rather than enjoy freedom here and complain about those 'poor bastards'.

Uhmmm.... How about we leave Iraq?

If Iraq and the Middle East have nothing to offer... then why don't we leave, save American Lives, and a $h!t load of money??? (and lord knows we need the money)

Oh wait... we need to be there for a reason... to protect Israel and Oil Reserves.


Sorry their isn't a McDonalds and Wal Mart in Iraq yet.

It's too Bad that the citizens of Iraq can't rape little boys in their Catholic Churches like they do here in America.

And I'm sorry that Iraq doesn't have High School Football on Friday, College Football on Saturday, and the NFL on Sunday...... and Hollywood to keep them distracted.



The only difference between you and a Iraqi is that you unfortunately came out of a vagina that was located in the western world.... Only if you came out of a vagina in the Middle East, then maybe you'd actually have a heart.


Or wait... maybe if you born in Germany in the 1920's you'd be saying the same thing about Jews in the 40's?




Oh and BTW... you really still think 19 radical muslims pulled off 9/11?




[edit on 5-4-2010 by Doomsday 2029]

[edit on 5-4-2010 by Doomsday 2029]

[edit on 5-4-2010 by Doomsday 2029]

Just to let you know MOST of Iraq LOVES us. We provide them with food, we rebuild schools, we rebuild roads. Funny the NEWS doesn't EVER show that kind of stuff!!! All of you anti-war guys need to do a little more research, everytime I went on patrols to the local villages around Balad EVERYONE from the villages would come out and cheer for us. The village elder would tell us if anything out of the ordinary was going on, we would give them food, candy, water, gatorade and help them with whatever we were able to do. SHAME on people like you who only see the bad things that happen over there. Believe it or not we are helping MORE than we are hurting.

If you hate America so much THEN LEAVE.....

[edit on 5-4-2010 by Reign02]

reply to post by drew hempel


I'm sure that's exactly what happened!

None of us were there, so we have no idea of what the situation was like.