Massacre in woods that brought war to Moscow's metro

Massacre in woods that brought war to Moscow's metro

www.guardian.co.uk

Without warning, Russian commandos hiding behind a hillock opened fire.Adlan, 16, was with his brother Arbi, 19, and their friends Shamil Kataev, 19, and Movsar Tataev, 19. Shamil and Movsar were both wounded. Adlan was shot in the leg, but managed to hobble into a ditch. He hid. Arbi also attempted to flee, but men in camouflage fatigues caught up with him.

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According to the human rights group Memorial, Arbi was forced to drag his two wounded and bleeding friends across the snow. Shamil begged for his life. But the solders were impervious. They placed a blindfold over Arbi's eyes. And then they opened fire: executing Shamil and Movsar on the spot. At least two other garlic pickers suffered the same fate: Ramzan Susaev, 40, and Movsar Dakaev, 17. According to his relatives, Dakaev had pleaded to be allowed on the trip with the others. Wearing a bright green fleece, he took a photo of himself in the woods with his mobile phone. It shows him proudly posing against a craggy backdrop of cliffs and trees covered in snow. A little over 48 hours later his body was discovered.

Normally this atrocity on a cold day in February would have raised barely a ripple of attention had it not been for the terrible events in Moscow this week. In a video address on Thursday, Chechnya's chief insurgent leader, Doku Umarov, said Monday's suicide attacks on the Russian capital's metro were in revenge for the killings of the garlic pickers near the Ingush village of Arshaty. He claimed federal security service (FSB) commandos had used knives to mutilate their bodies of the dead boys.

Russian victims huh?....

I'll give Russia just as much sympathy as Israel on this matter.






www.guardian.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

They're all as bad as each other...!!

The Chechnyans are just as bad as the Russians when it Comes to mutilating the bodies. Thing is the Chechnyans do it while the Person is still alive and the Idiots film themselves doing it.

So, I don;t have sympathy for either side. I have no idea why Russia just doesn't get on with it and wipe the Chechnyans out, once and for all. Then peace can return. Russia does have the capability of Destroying the Chechnyans and I wonder sometimes why the Chechnyans just don't give up. Isn't eveyone after Peace? Let's face it, if the Chechnyans get what they want, then What? What are they going to do then? They'll still be Poor and live in Crap..

There will be no peace until one side is obliterated, simple as that..

Originally posted by DarkspARCS

Russian victims huh?....

I'll give Russia just as much sympathy as Israel on this matter.

There are many folks in every country that have absolutely nothing to do with, and no control over, anything that their governments, law enforcement, military, etc, do or say.

They get caught in the middle of anything like this, and suffer for it.

Which then causes more to take sides and perpetuate the violence.


Sad circle.

reply to post by DarkspARCS


I can't believe how cold hearted you are. We should be grateful that things are not that bad in this country. But if tensions rise between militias and our government you might be seeing articles like this in our own news papers. My sympathy goes out to those caught in the crossfire in every nation. Alas there will always be collateral damage.

Russia needs to get rid of the monster - Putin - and replace him with a lesser monster.

Putin's Russia - AKA - Stalin's Russia.

Gorbachev was their one moment of sanity.

Unusually, Ingushetia's president Yevkurov quickly acknowledged that several innocent civilians had been killed in February's special operation. He added, however, that security forces had succeeded in killing 18 rebels, and said that the operation had served to increase the stability of the region. Both Chechnya and Ingushetia's rulers have paid the families of the dead teenage boys compensation.

This says it all.

They killed "several" innocents, but proclaim victory for the 18 rebels killed.

But its ok....the families were paid off. I guess human life DOES have a dollar value.

reply to post by Damian-007

The Chechnyans are just as bad as the Russians when it Comes to mutilating the bodies. Thing is the Chechnyans do it while the Person is still alive and the Idiots film themselves doing it.

You have to admit the Chechnyans do it in the right manner, at least they don't hide it and make the matter more complicated. Unlike other powerful nations these groups tell the world exactly what they, and exactly what they will do if they don't get what they want..

I applaud their honesty, but not their tactics, although I believe their tactics have more to do with attention seeking, which they have no other means of gaining..

Palestinians are doing the same, trying to gain attention in regards to their situation, and they got that attention, look at Israel now, not many in the world have sympathy for the Zionist government any more..

reply to post by Damian-007


Key point of difference?

They're Chechens in Chechnya, doing it to soldiers who kill and mutilate Chechens.

My sympathy for any Russian soldier unfortunate enough to have this happen to him is really very limited, simply because of that fact.

And given your advocacy of genocide... Well, that's just goddamned stupid, don't you think?

The Chechens want an independent Chechnya. Let 'em have it. Boom, peace, just like that. Not only is it a lot more moral than your idiotic idea, but it's less fiscally irresponsible, as well.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Damian-007

 

Key point of difference?

They're Chechens in Chechnya, doing it to soldiers who kill and mutilate Chechens.

My sympathy for any Russian soldier unfortunate enough to have this happen to him is really very limited, simply because of that fact.

And given your advocacy of genocide... Well, that's just goddamned stupid, don't you think?

The Chechens want an independent Chechnya. Let 'em have it. Boom, peace, just like that. Not only is it a lot more moral than your idiotic idea, but it's less fiscally irresponsible, as well.

Either way, it has to end some time and the Chechans aren't going to win, are they?

So, keep the Suffering going another 100 years or so, I mean why not. It's already gone on for a long time already.

I don't advocate genocide at all.

Killing Innocent people in Train Stations, is an attention seeking act. It gains the Attention, not only of the President, but the rest of the World as well. If that's the kind of attention they want, then Obliterate them and stop the Madness, Simple.

It goes to show how tough they actually are though, sending their Women in with Bombs strapped to their backs.

Anyhow, each to their own. Sooner or later though, the madness has to stop.

Originally posted by Pajjikor
reply to post by DarkspARCS

 

I can't believe how cold hearted you are. We should be grateful that things are not that bad in this country. But if tensions rise between militias and our government you might be seeing articles like this in our own news papers. My sympathy goes out to those caught in the crossfire in every nation. Alas there will always be collateral damage.

wow. guess I'm cold hearted now. NOPE... I'M STILL BREATHING... seem to be pretty warm actually.

ANY country that INTENTIONALLY sends out death squads to kill innocent children has ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY FROM ME.....

Now... since you SUPPORT RUSSIAN DEATH SQUADS THAT KILL INNOCENT CHILDREN...

Who's the cold hearted one?

True... as People... I sympathize with their personal injuries. HOWEVER... they all the same enable their government to act the way it does... and it came back and bit them in the a§§.

º¿ȫ

Originally posted by Damian-007
Either way, it has to end some time and the Chechans aren't going to win, are they?

So, keep the Suffering going another 100 years or so, I mean why not. It's already gone on for a long time already.

I believe they will, actually. The trouble is, Russia is pretending it's still an imperial power. Eventually the Russian government will catch on that it's a lot of things, and none of them are "empire."

Why should the chechens give up? They have a cause, that cause is winnable, and at least to their outlook, winning it is a good thing.

I don't advocate genocide at all.

Killing Innocent people in Train Stations, is an attention seeking act. It gains the Attention, not only of the President, but the rest of the World as well. If that's the kind of attention they want, then Obliterate them and stop the Madness, Simple.

Emphasis mine. Your statements contradict.

It goes to show how tough they actually are though, sending their Women in with Bombs strapped to their backs.

Shows how tough their women are. You should never underestimate a woman in a fight, much less a war.

You're a chechen woman. You've seen your husband killed fighting Russians. probably some sons, brothers, maybe even your own father. Maybe you've lost other children to "collateral damage". Your friends share similar stories. You're constantly beset by attacks from Russia's military, and economic warfare from Russia's bureaucracy. You've starved, you've bled, you've lost your loved ones.

Someone offers you a gun. odds are, you're going to take it, snarl something not intended for a PG discussion, and kill you as many goddamned Russians as you can.

The whole reason that women were excluded from wars for so long is because they're damned scary and fight dirty.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by TheWalkingFox]

Atrocities are only met with more atrocities. A heavy-handed approach is only followed by another heavy-handed approach by the other side. However, if these innocent boys as they are being described were up in the woods while Russian security services were conducting searches, then perhaps they were mistaken for insurgents? Given the Russian track record, they tend to shoot first ask questions later. Then, we have to remember that they are dealing with a ruthless enemy as well. A group that sees no fault in using women to carry out suicide attacks, hacking off heads of non-combatants, using children as a bargaining chip to make a political statement (Beslan school incident), and other dastardly behavior in a feeble attempt to prove a point.

So, some would like to claim that by using the same atrocious behavior alleged to be used by the Russian Federation security services, military, and propped-up cronies in Chechnya, Ingushetia, and Dagestan against Russia is justified, but I find no justification in that type of response. Those people that got blown up in the subway had nothing to do with what is going on in the regions mentioned above. I suppose they are guilty to the terrorists because they were just going to work and are Russian?

If what the Russians did in the woods to those boys happened in the vile way described, it is dead wrong, but that does not give the people from that region the right to kill more innocents. Plus, it only fuels the need for more Russian involvement in the region listed above. Then, it gives Russia the opportunity to continue describing the insurgents as savages and monsters in the flesh, and a self induced justification for the Russian military to use atrocities against the civilians to prove a point. Moreover, the act of snuffing out civilians by the terrorists gives the Russian government the ability to refocus the blame on the Chechens and other terrorist groups while negating their own human rights abuses in the process. To put things into perspective, the Russians are no saints in how they deal with disorder in their provinces in the Caucasus, but these scum hiding in the mountains attacking civilians in Russia are no better as well.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by Jakes51]

reply to post by DarkspARCS


Whoops, thought you meant you had no symphony for the innocent people killed, I misunderstood you. Sorry.

It takes a war widow to get our attention, when years of bloody unrest hasn't.

The spotlight has been moved, the board shifted, for the price of a single willing soldier. That is very good tactics ... in war.

Killing 4 innocents while others are watching, is very bad tactics ... in war.

I love the logic that allows years of war in preference to giving someone a homeland.

reply to post by Jakes51


While i agree with you, it is important to remember that not only are humans, by nature cruel and vindictive, but it is also difficult to be honest while judging someone who has witnessed the injustice and horror of a loved one being killed.

________________________________________________________________________

But, in the same way that the guy flying the plane into the building in Austin is no hero, the Chechen rebels are not either. Specifically targeting civilians doesn't make you a freedom fighter, nor a hero. It makes you a monster, like Hitler and Osama.

No matter how much you feel for the people of Chechnya, your humanity must beckon you to temper that emotion with the reality of how atrocious the actions are.

Using ends to justify means is among the most faulty logic man has ever concocted.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Jakes51

 

While i agree with you, it is important to remember that not only are humans, by nature cruel and vindictive, but it is also difficult to be honest while judging someone who has witnessed the injustice and horror of a loved one being killed.

________________________________________________________________________

But, in the same way that the guy flying the plane into the building in Austin is no hero, the Chechen rebels are not either. Specifically targeting civilians doesn't make you a freedom fighter, nor a hero. It makes you a monster, like Hitler and Osama.

No matter how much you feel for the people of Chechnya, your humanity must beckon you to temper that emotion with the reality of how atrocious the actions are.

Using ends to justify means is among the most faulty logic man has ever concocted.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Hey there BFT!... =)

Something to consider when people like the "terrorist" that claimed responsibility for the bombings, in retaliation for the cold, calculated killing of the children in the country that "terrorist" is from... This is most likely the mindset they used when planning for the targeting and execution of that operation...

To MAXIMIZE the shock value and to provide an equal amount of justice towards the act of retribution against the killing of those innocent children by the Russian Government... INNOCENT civilians, who were in the heart of the very country that enacted the atrocity against them were - unfortunately for them - chosen to be the sacrificial lambs for the actions of their own government.

This is sad, so very sad. But, in the act of justifiable retribution, that is what happened.
It's even more tragic when two additional children chose to strap on explosives to carry the mission out.

The Russians made the claims that the two girls identified in the bombings were this terrorist and that terrorist... when I bet you that those two young ladies that took their own lives were more than likely either the girlfriends of or the wives of those young chechnyian men that were murdered...

The "massacre in the woods" story has been making rounds in the press for some time now, and there are still some parts that are unclear. If these were regular civilians, what were they doing in the forest that is a known hideout spot for the militants? Most Chechens know well enough to stay as far away from the militants and rebels as possible. Also it is not unheard of, that civilians bring much needed supplies to the insurgents. It was never fully established if these individuals might have been accomplices.

In the case that they were actually civilians, it is unfortunate of course. This is an ongoing conflict however. Look at how many civilians the US forces kill in Afghanistan and Pakistan when they are targeting the Taliban. Do you by the same extent think that each of those killed civilians should be rightfully avenged by his/her relatives killing American civilians?

Both the US in Afghanistan, and Russia in the North Caucasus are fighting an almost unseen enemy. These insurgents typically hide close to civilians, who act as human shields for them. Both Chechen terrorists and the Taliban are an enemy that uses the dirtiest available tactics. Eliminating them is not an easy job, and it is unavoidable that some collateral damage will occur. Unfortunate? Yes. But this is a difficult conflict, and a necessary one.



So before you all blame Russia and state that the terrorist attacks in Moscow were justified, switch sides and conflicts to see how hypocritical you are.

Was the attack on 9/11 against Americans justified? I could draw parallels between actions of Al Quida and actions of the Chechen terrorists all day. Were the attacks in London several years ago justified? What about in Madrid?



So stop your self righteous bellyaching, you are not fooling anyone by speaking in support of the Chechen terrorists and their actions. The attacks in Moscow were carried out by terrorist against innocent civilians - ones who are not responsible for the actions of politicians and certain individuals in armed forces. No matter what you think was done to the relatives of the Chechens who carried out the attacks - there is no justification for what done in Moscow.


[edit on 4-4-2010 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy

Do you by the same extent think that each of those killed civilians should be rightfully avenged by his/her relatives killing American civilians?

You asked for it, an eye for an eye.. You kill my brother I will kill yours, I won't even touch you.. Would it hurt you if I kill you? No, I want you to feel what I feel..

That is how revenge works, pissed off people don't think logically they think emotionally..

Emotion sometimes goes against logic.. So what you need to do is read the quote of the month.. look down V

Don't blame the conflict on the deaths, blame the stubborn powers of the world.. A conflict wouldn't exist if we all learned to compromise, the problem is the most powerful doesn't want to compromise, why would it? It has enough weapons to blow up all conscious beings on this planet, so why should it compromise? When it can rule the world?

Don't tell me they are stacking all these weapons for self defence lol.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
Something to consider when people like the "terrorist" that claimed responsibility for the bombings, in retaliation for the cold, calculated killing of the children in the country that "terrorist" is from...

Cold and calculated? How do you know they were calculated? When US bombs what they think are Taliban targets in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and tens of civilians die - are those cold and calculated killings? If the relatives of those killed civilians come to the US and kill tens of innocent Americans in retaliation will you speak the same then?

It doesn't even have to be US. Take any country that is or has participated with the US in the war on terror. Do you have any idea how many civilians, including children, were killed during the past decade as a direct result of US actions? By the same extent of your concept of "justified retaliation", imagine what the relatives of all those victims would be justified to do to the US civilians?


It is easy to speak when the terror attacks happen somewhere else and say "they deserved it and brought it upon themselves". But what when the attacks happen where you live, and others say the same about you rather than offering their condolences for the terrible crime committed?

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
This is most likely the mindset they used when planning for the targeting and execution of that operation...

Mindset? What do you know about the mindset of those fighting in the ongoing conflict in Chechnya? The Russian forces are facing an invisible enemy that uses any available dirty tactics, not unlike the Taliban. Intense measures are sometimes called for, whether they are right or wrong, to accomplish needed tasks. Nobody kills civilians just for kicks - misidentification is the likely reason.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
To MAXIMIZE the shock value and to provide an equal amount of justice

Equal amount of justice according to what twisted logic? The terrorists in Moscow didn't target politicians or armed forces. They killed civlians who have nothing to do with the conflict in Chechnya, and who have no control over it. No law or social concept ever justifies retribution against a third party uninvolved in the original crime.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
INNOCENT civilians, who were in the heart of the very country that enacted the atrocity against them were - unfortunately for them - chosen to be the sacrificial lambs for the actions of their own government.

So were the people killed on 9/11 by the same extent. You twisted logic can be applied to any terrorist act, and in fact to almost any act of violence.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
The Russians made the claims that the two girls identified in the bombings were this terrorist and that terrorist... when I bet you that those two young ladies that took their own lives were more than likely either the girlfriends of or the wives of those young chechnyian men that were murdered...

No they weren't. It has already been established that they were wives of known militants, who were actively involved in fighting against Russian forces. Their husbands made a choice to take up arms and fight against them. As armed combatants they have no one to blame for their death but themselves.

The warlords who run the terrorist cells, use people like these women and take advantage of their mental state. After their husbands die, they are brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers. The women do not do this by their own accord - they do not plan the attack and do not create the explosives. They are simply pawns for some insurgent warlords who benefit from these attacks.