Massacre in woods that brought war to Moscow's metro

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
I'll give Russia just as much sympathy as Israel on this matter.

So the innocent people that died as a result of this are somehow justified because of this story? Gotcha.. Glad to see the good side of the human spirit from time to time, ya know.. just to feel alive.

This story, as well as the bombing are both tragic, but whatever helps you sleep at night I guess...

I assume that it is an explainable psychological condition for people to try and justify the terrorist attacks and somehow reverse the blame on Russia and the victims - especially people outside of Russia unconnected with the Chechen conflict. However should a similar terrorist act happen in their country, then they will expect others to side with them and to offer them condolences rather than blaiming them.

Terrorist attacks are just that - terror against civilians. They are not justified in any way. They are certainly not legal. Whatever motives they have, pale in comparison to the terrible nature of their crime. It doesn't matter where the terrorist attacks happen - US, Russia, UK, Spain, Indonesia, China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc. Even if they happen in the country whose leadership you don't support - if they target civilians they are no better than if they happened at your front door.

This hypocrisy is sickening.

Originally posted by Damian-007
They're all as bad as each other...!!

The Chechnyans are just as bad as the Russians when it Comes to mutilating the bodies. Thing is the Chechnyans do it while the Person is still alive and the Idiots film themselves doing it.

So, I don;t have sympathy for either side. I have no idea why Russia just doesn't get on with it and wipe the Chechnyans out, once and for all. Then peace can return. Russia does have the capability of Destroying the Chechnyans and I wonder sometimes why the Chechnyans just don't give up. Isn't eveyone after Peace? Let's face it, if the Chechnyans get what they want, then What? What are they going to do then? They'll still be Poor and live in Crap..

There will be no peace until one side is obliterated, simple as that..

Wow, I've never seen such compassion before! Hitler would be proud.

I think that if people like you were wiped out, then maybe there could be peace in the world. I mean, isn't that what everyone wants? Peace?

Honestly, what gives anyone the right to decide if a race should be wiped out?

As far as the massacre in the woods goes, unfortuately, there are bad apples in every bushel, and when they do something horrible, everyone suffers. It's a terrible and vicious circle....

Let's put few points in perspective ;

There are about 1 million Chechens in existence .

Chechniya is a really small landlocked nation .

There are about 150 million Russians in existence .

Russia is one of the world's largest landed nation .


This war ( Russians vs Caucasians ) have been ongoing for such a loooooong time .


Terrorism is not acceptable .

Under no circumstances !!!


Untill Russia gives up lands of All Caucasian Nations , this madness , this terrorism is not going to stop , unfortunately.

Originally posted by 23432
Untill Russia gives up lands of All Caucasian Nations , this madness , this terrorism is not going to stop , unfortunately.

Gives them up to whom? What do you mean All Caucasian Nations?

There are many peaceful regions and autonomous republics in the Caucasus that have no problem being part of the Russian Federation, and in fact benefit from it. This includes Krasnodar, Adygeya, Cherkessia, Stavropol, Kabardino Balkaria, North Ossetia-Alania, and most of Dagestan and Ingushetia. And the Caucasus region isn't just populated by non-Russian ethnicities. The vast majority of the region is, and has been historically populated by Russians. Don't mistake the entire Caucasus region because of the actions of a small faction of trouble makers.

Also if you didn't know - Chechnya did have a shot at independence. It was de facto independent from 1991 to 1994, and again from 1996 to 1999. It deterriorated into a anarchy and criminal state, with constant infighting by different warlords. It economy was reduced to drugs and arms trafficking, kidnapping for ransome, and raiding neighbor regions and republics. While Chechnya was "de facto independent", it attacked Russian territories of North Ossetia in 1992 and 1993, and Dagestan
in 1999.

The problem is that when Chechnya was self-ruled, those who came to power were radicalist militants. They wanted to spread the struggle for independence to neighboring republics, regardless of the fact that those republics wanted nothing to do with them.

If Chechnya is given full independence, the same radicalist Islamists will come to power. In that case it will not solve any problems for Russia, not by a long shot. The rebels in Chechnya would not be content with indepence. They want a Jihad struggle throughout the Caucasus, and they are doing it for money - received from sponsors in the Middle East. If Russia lets Chechnya loose, then it will become a "you give them a finger and they take the whole arm" sort of thing. It will not stop the terrorism and insurgency, just as it hadn't in 1991-1994 or 1996-1999.




Make no mistake - Russia is not dealing with your typical separatists here. These are Islamists, who see their objectives in a far bigger scope than just Chechnya. According to the current leader Doku Umarov himself, their goal is to create chaos in all of the Caucasus. These militants see themselves as a part of larger global struggle, which includes groups like the Taliban, Al Quida, and Iraq insurgents as their allies.

Russian commandos do the killing and as revenge the Moscow metro is bombed killing innocent victims. It appears to me that this is a failed logic. Real revenge would have been directed at the Russian Commandos and since once again we see those that seeking revenge on those that had nothing to do with the Russian Commandos actions. This to me smells of false flag.

Originally posted by mckyle
Russia needs to get rid of the monster - Putin - and replace him with a lesser monster.
Putin's Russia - AKA - Stalin's Russia.
Gorbachev was their one moment of sanity.

I disagree with you..Putin is so far the best person in power in Russia till date. He is everything a leader should be.

Originally posted by broahes

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
I'll give Russia just as much sympathy as Israel on this matter.

So the innocent people that died as a result of this are somehow justified because of this story? Gotcha.. Glad to see the good side of the human spirit from time to time, ya know.. just to feel alive.

This story, as well as the bombing are both tragic, but whatever helps you sleep at night I guess...

people like yourself really don't know how to read I guess.

Right now you look like and idiot, I suggest reading and entire post before posting comments based on ignorance

Originally posted by maloy
I assume that it is an explainable psychological condition for people to try and justify the terrorist attacks and somehow reverse the blame on Russia and the victims - especially people outside of Russia unconnected with the Chechen conflict. However should a similar terrorist act happen in their country, then they will expect others to side with them and to offer them condolences rather than blaiming them.

Terrorist attacks are just that - terror against civilians. They are not justified in any way. They are certainly not legal. Whatever motives they have, pale in comparison to the terrible nature of their crime. It doesn't matter where the terrorist attacks happen - US, Russia, UK, Spain, Indonesia, China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc. Even if they happen in the country whose leadership you don't support - if they target civilians they are no better than if they happened at your front door.

This hypocrisy is sickening.

"This hypocrisy is sickening."

Well since you put it that way... Maybe we should petition NATO to commence immediate sanctions against the Russian Government for Acts of Terror against the children of Chechniya.

After all, the article explains that the bombing of Moscow was in retaliation for the Government sponsored murder of 4 Chechiniyan Teenagers - and that in COLD BLOOD...

Before spamming your ignorant agendas based upon a choice to remain blind of EVERYTHING involved, get a clue, and learn how to read.

Originally posted by December_Rain

Originally posted by mckyle
Russia needs to get rid of the monster - Putin - and replace him with a lesser monster.
Putin's Russia - AKA - Stalin's Russia.
Gorbachev was their one moment of sanity.

I disagree with you..Putin is so far the best person in power in Russia till date. He is everything a leader should be.

lol... I could have sworn the Russian President was Medvedev, not Putin. am I wrong here?

Originally posted by maloy


Gives them up to whom?

To Caucasians , obviously .

What do you mean All Caucasian Nations?

Russian Federation Citizens who are of Caucasian Stock and their respective nations



There are many peaceful regions and autonomous republics in the Caucasus that have no problem being part of the Russian Federation, and in fact benefit from it.

All though I agree that the status quo is good and mostly working . I would wager a 10 ruble that the Chuvash , if giving the chance , would want to stand up as slighty different then Russians .



This includes Krasnodar, Adygeya, Cherkessia, Stavropol, Kabardino Balkaria, North Ossetia-Alania, and most of Dagestan and Ingushetia.

I am an Adygean


And the Caucasus region isn't just populated by non-Russian ethnicities. The vast majority of the region is, and has been historically populated by Russians.

About the Russian existence in Caucasus , I would say that they have arrived at last milennia .

Historically speaking , Maikop Culture is Caucasian .



Don't mistake the entire Caucasus region because of the actions of a small faction of trouble makers.

I do not mistake them at all . They are all ' my people ' , the mountaineers .




Also if you didn't know - Chechnya did have a shot at independence.

I did know . In fact I knew Dudayev's Turkish Contacts too . Their so called shot at the independence was doomed for failure .
And the main reason was that it did not suit Moscows ambitions .


It was de facto independent from 1991 to 1994, and again from 1996 to 1999. It deterriorated into a anarchy and criminal state, with constant infighting by different warlords.


Surely , when Cahar Dudayev was taken out by a Russian Mig fired missile , somebody back in Kremlin was already sending out instructions to the warlords in the area .

If Dudayev was not assasinated , Chechens would of had their soverign state .




It economy was reduced to drugs and arms trafficking, kidnapping for ransome, and raiding neighbor regions and republics.

All true , unfortunately .
But not surprising at all .
War breeds chaos in any society .
Besides , it's a way of life for some Chechens and others .



While Chechnya was "de facto independent", it attacked Russian territories of North Ossetia in 1992 and 1993, and Dagestan
in 1999.

They still are trying and as soon as they get Dagestan , it is over for Rodina .unfortunately


The problem is that when Chechnya was self-ruled, those who came to power were radicalist militants. They wanted to spread the struggle for independence to neighboring republics, regardless of the fact that those republics wanted nothing to do with them.

Right to self determination is supreme .

I mean all Caucasian Nations would been EU members today , only if they had the same treatment of eastern European nations who once were in USSR like the Caucasian nations .
What is good for the goose is also good for the gander too .




If Chechnya is given full independence, the same radicalist Islamists will come to power.

this is true in the short term .


In that case it will not solve any problems for Russia, not by a long shot.

It is not Russia's problem first and upmost . It is the problem of other Caucasian nations to start with .

They will have to solve the so called problem . Unless if you are saying that they are the problem , surely , it is in the interest of non militant Caucasians to come to an understanding with their militant neighbours .




The rebels in Chechnya would not be content with indepence. They want a Jihad struggle throughout the Caucasus, and they are doing it for money - received from sponsors in the Middle East.

Also true . The only force to stop these wahabist warmongerers is to deploy the local sufi & nakhsibendi traditions .
Not Moscow's militia .



If Russia lets Chechnya loose, then it will become a "you give them a finger and they take the whole arm" sort of thing. It will not stop the terrorism and insurgency, just as it hadn't in 1991-1994 or 1996-1999.

Non Russians , if they decide to leave the RF , should have the choice .
Like how it is in EU .



Make no mistake - Russia is not dealing with your typical separatists here. These are Islamists, who see their objectives in a far bigger scope than just Chechnya. According to the current leader Doku Umarov himself, their goal is to create chaos in all of the Caucasus. These militants see themselves as a part of larger global struggle, which includes groups like the Taliban, Al Quida, and Iraq insurgents as their allies.

I am under no illusion as to who they are and what they want .


Caucasus region should be turned into a Benelux countries like structure and Russia should instigate the process .

Russia should make a deal with Turkics and Persians and let Caucasus become independent and weapons free .

IMHO , That is the only way to stop what you fear most .

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
Well since you put it that way... Maybe we should petition NATO to commence immediate sanctions against the Russian Government for Acts of Terror against the children of Chechniya.

What the hell does NATO have to do with this? NATO is the last organization on earth to have any rights of commencing sanctions against anyone - its jurisdiction starts and ends within the borders of its member nations.

And what terror against Chechnyan children are you talking about. Terrorism is the intentional targeting of civilians, and as terrible as collateral damage is it does not amount to terror.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
After all, the article explains that the bombing of Moscow was in retaliation for the Government sponsored murder of 4 Chechiniyan Teenagers - and that in COLD BLOOD....

Do you trust all articles to tell the accurate truth? The 'Guardian' is a UK source, and I hardly expect that they know the details about what happened in the operation in question in Chechnya. The terrorists can make up justifications for their actions as they please - but they don't need them to continue their violent campaign.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
Before spamming your ignorant agendas based upon a choice to remain blind of EVERYTHING involved, get a clue, and learn how to read.

You are telling me to learn how to read, and yet you continue to make ignorant and uneducated comments about a conflict that you haven't got a clue on.

Originally posted by 23432
To Caucasians , obviously

The "Caucasians" are a mix of diverse ethnicities who have little in common other than that they all live in the Caucasus Mountains region. Not all of them seek independence, and not all of them have common goals.

Originally posted by 23432
All though I agree that the status quo is good and mostly working . I would wager a 10 ruble that the Chuvash , if giving the chance , would want to stand up as slighty different then Russians .

And why would Chuvash need independence? Have they ever been independent? Would they be better off if they were independent? Why can't a nation like Russia be composed of different ethnicities - as it has been historically? By the extent of your arguement, Russia could be split up into 100 different nations. And the same would go for almost every large country on earth.

Do you really think the Caucasus region would be more stable and peaceful if everyone got independence? Think of the conflicts it would cause with minority ethnicities within each republic. And I can just imagine the political in fighting, and wars between them for land. Given the chance for example, the Ingush and the North Ossetians would slaughter each other.

Originally posted by 23432
I am an Adygean

And I am from Krasnodar, and have lived in Cherkessia and Stavropol, and traveled throughout the region.

Originally posted by 23432
About the Russian existence in Caucasus , I would say that they have arrived at last milennia.

Still these Russians are now just as local as everyone else. They consider where they live to be their home. The population has mixed a lot, and no region in the Caucasus is homogeneous.

Originally posted by 23432
I do not mistake them at all . They are all ' my people ' , the mountaineers .

They are my people too. But you can't equate all Caucasian ethnicities to Chechens. The religions differ. So do traditions, politics, goals, interests, and historical relations with Russia. There will be a lot of unhappy individuals there if you start granting independence left and right. It won't solve anything. Russia already gave many regions extensive autonomy, and status quo is really the best all around solution for the time being.

Originally posted by 23432
I did know . In fact I knew Dudayev's Turkish Contacts too . Their so called shot at the independence was doomed for failure .
And the main reason was that it did not suit Moscows ambitions .

Moscow turned a blind eye when Dudayev arrived on the scene in 1991. Moscow at the time was not the least bit concerned about Chechnya, as they were trying to establish the new post Soviet government. For some time Dudayev and his militants were free to do anything they wanted, and did. They raided Russian army bases for weapons. They freely entered Russian territory, and had uninterrupted transport and communication with the outside. They were free do as they saw fit with their land and economy, and they quickly drove it into the ground.

Their problem was not that their actions "didn't fit Moscow's ambitions. It is that they became militant separatists on the ethnical and religious basis. They started attacking Russians who lived in Chechnya, and forcing them to leave their homes. They also quickly became enemies with North Ossetians. They resorted to stealing and plundering to sustain themselves economically.

Moscow really started paying attention in 1993, and were already too late.

And Dudayev, was actually a major part of the problem.

Originally posted by 23432
Surely , when Cahar Dudayev was taken out by a Russian Mig fired missile , somebody back in Kremlin was already sending out instructions to the warlords in the area .

What warlords are you talking about. There was constant infighting between Chechen factions going all the way back to 1991. Many warlords were opposed to Dudayev from the start. The opposition even tried to strom Grozny in 1993, and of course by that time they sided with the Russian armed forces.

Dudayev's opposition was justified too. He was never officially elected through a region-wide election. The limited scale election that did happen was mostly staged. After he became "president", he broke up the Congress of the Chechen People, and swiftly eliminated all opposition.

Originally posted by 23432
If Dudayev was not assasinated , Chechens would of had their soverign state .

By the time he was assassinated his own militants were already drifting away from him in terms of idealogy. People like Khattab and Basayev weren't content with Dudayev, who they saw as not being radical enough. By the time he was killed, these radicalists were already in control of the majority of the separatist factions.

In fact both Dudayev and Maskhadov were killed partly because they were betrayed by other warlords like Basayev.

Originally posted by 23432
Besides , it's a way of life for some Chechens and others .

And that creates problems for their neighbors. Chechen taipes have constantly been at war with their neighbors. The regions was never known for stability or peace. The Russian Empire expanded through ruthless means no doubt, but it did help bring civility to parts of North Caucasus.

Originally posted by 23432
I mean all Caucasian Nations would been EU members today

Who would let them into the EU? Georgia, Ukraine and Armenia still aren't in EU, and are not even close. Do you seriously think that if all the Caucasus nations became independent that would bring about peace and prosperity? All it would result in is countless unending wars with each other, just as it had been before the Russian Empire.

And what of Abkhazia, Adjaria, South Ossetia, Nagorno Karabakh? Do you also think they all deserve independence?

Originally posted by 23432
only if they had the same treatment of eastern European nations who once were in USSR like the Caucasian nations .

Eastern European nations have a historical precedent. Before the USSR they have been recognized sovereign states with organized political system and laws. That is not the case for most Caucasus regions, including Chechnya. They were never united as an organized sovereign state. They alternated between being parts of different empires and kingdoms, and sometimes being within the realm of anarchy with each village making its own laws as they see fit.

Originally posted by 23432
It is not Russia's problem first and upmost . It is the problem of other Caucasian nations to start with .

But you realize that it will undoubtably spill over into Russia and other Russians regions. Russia can't simply fence the entire region out. Russia will be dragged back into there one way or another.

And what of the Russians that live in North Caucasus? Will they be left to fend for themselves?

Don't get me wrong - I understand your side of the arguement. But solving the matter won't be this easy.

Originally posted by 23432
Non Russians , if they decide to leave the RF , should have the choice .
Like how it is in EU ..

Do the North Irish have the choice to leave UK? Does Catalonya or Basque republic have the choice to leave Spain? There are separatist struggles throughout Europe that are not being given that right, for one reason or other.

And no non-Russian ethnicity has any region just for themselves. The population is mixed everywhere. What would happen to the minorities in separated republics?

Originally posted by 23432
Caucasus region should be turned into a Benelux countries like structure and Russia should instigate the process .

This will not preempt violence and radicalism. To do as you propose would only give the militants and the radicalists more breathing room. Civilian government and authority would not be able to coexist in the region untill all traces of radicalism are uprooted.

Originally posted by 23432
Russia should make a deal with Turkics and Persians and let Caucasus become independent and weapons free .

You know that this would never work in reality. There are factions that are interested in destabilizing the Caucasus and in continuing the conflict there. And not for reasons of independence - but to weaken Russia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan. These factions have support from rich Middle Eastern countries. Independence will not cease this radicalist movement. Turkey and Iran also won't be of much help, because their territorial and political ambitions are not unlike those of Russia.



There is no easy solution. In fact as of right now there is no solution. The safest bet is to maintain the status quo until things quiet down a bit. Of course Russia will still have to deal with this at some point in the future, and it won't be quick.

I don't think that independence in historically unstable regions would help introduce stability and peace. It will simply set the ground for further fighting. Extensive autonomy could be the solution, but for it to be stable it needs a legitimate civilian authority (which people like Kadyrov are not). This could take decades to establish.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS

Originally posted by broahes

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
I'll give Russia just as much sympathy as Israel on this matter.

So the innocent people that died as a result of this are somehow justified because of this story? Gotcha.. Glad to see the good side of the human spirit from time to time, ya know.. just to feel alive.

This story, as well as the bombing are both tragic, but whatever helps you sleep at night I guess...

people like yourself really don't know how to read I guess.

Right now you look like and idiot, I suggest reading and entire post before posting comments based on ignorance

I read the OP, as I read your response..

I love it that because you can't deal with an opinion that isn't in line with yours, you move into saying that people "like me" can't read, and that I'm just "posting comments based on ignorance". I could easily say that your response to the OP, or your response to me were deeply seeded in ignorance, but I choose not to and just let them speak for you...

Russia has a very shocking history of how inhabitants of enemy territories are treated.

WW2 is a prime example.

Hell let loose, the dogs of war!