What Really Happens In A Gunfight, page 1

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Topic started on 10-3-2010 @ 07:23 AM by DaddyBare

I can tell you from personal experience that 90% of the time you learn your in a gun fight only after someone is shooting at you... and no two gunfights are ever the same.

For many years, we have been taught that armed confrontations occur at very close distances (often times at arm's length), that few shots are fired and the person involved usually misses. These statistics were compiled from the FBI's Officer Killed Summary, which are released on an annual basis. Note that the operative word here is killed; these are officers that lost their confrontation. Have you ever wondered what happened with the officers that won? Did they do anything different to help ensure they would prevail?

I've seen one FBI stat were just over 90% of shoot outs occurred with in 10 feet the the PMA study showed the average distance being more like twenty. both studies do agree that in said gun fight only 10% of the shoots fired hit their intended target.

From all these reports the one and only valid conclusion that could be made, that one clue to staying alive, is that all the survivors had one thing in common... they kept the front sight within their cone of vision!!!

If you want to read a really good in-depth on this subject go to this article by Handgun Mag

read it study it make it your bible, just maybe something you learn will give you the edge

[edit on 10-3-2010 by DaddyBare]

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:35 AM by Asktheanimals

thank you for the link DB. I carry concealed and (happily)have never been engaged in a gunfight. I carry a ,380 ruger which I'm very accurate with at 20 feet. It has no real sights on it, so it's just a point and shoot type weapon. My reasoning for carry this particular gun is based on the fact that most times you woild have to use it you will be closer than 20 feet from your attacker.
Naturally, I'm interested to know all I can on the subject. I'm certain you know your business on guns so I'll stop back by after reading the article you linked. Thanks!

OK, just read it. Very good read. It reinforces what I was already thinking - namely that my Ruger LCP, having a low-profile front sight needs some spicing up. In fact, I just ordered night sight paint and was going to paint the back of the front sight and add two dots to the rear. I will have to drill holes in my gun (EEK!) but I'm good with metalwork and can make a clean job of it. That should give me the sight picture visiblilty I'm looking for in low-light situations.
After going to the range last weekend I've decided to dump my keltec P11. What I discovered is that being a small guy (135lbs), any pistol with a double stack magazine doesn;t fit my hand well and is uncomfortable to shoot. It left the first knuckle on my thumb raw from shooting it. Even with the mag extensions it doesn;t fit so If I want a 9 for carrying I will have to switch to one with a single stack magazine.
My last concern is that since my pistol is Double action only, the long trigger travel will slow down my response. I think I need to work on draw shooting so that I can begin to take up slack on the trigger as I draw. I always carry hollow point ammo so I'm carrying the best I can get.
Coincidentally, I went to our NRA banquet last weekend. We raised over $50,000 this year and set a new record for money and attendance. Thanks Mr. Obama!

Great article. Everyone who owns a gun should read it. S & F

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Asktheanimals]

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:38 AM by Freq Of Nature

Ask yourself why you need to be firing that gun in the first place?

What a waste of life

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:45 AM by DaddyBare

Just to add somemore detail on the LEOKA reports
these stats are from 2008 last years should be out in mid May

■41 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty in 2008.
■22 of the slain officers were employed by city police departments. Of these, 12 were members of law enforcement agencies in cities with 250,000 or more inhabitants.
■Line-of-duty deaths occurred in 19 states. Twenty officers lost their lives in the South, the Nation’s most populous region. Nine of the officers died in the West, 9 died in the Midwest, and 3 officers who were feloniously slain were employed in the Northeast.

■9 officers died in 2008 from felonious attacks during arrest situations.
■8 officers died during traffic pursuits/stops.
■7 officers died while investigating suspicious persons/circumstances.
■7 officers died during tactical situations (barricaded offender, hostage taking, etc.).
■6 officers died in ambush situations.
■2 officers died during investigative activity (surveillance, search, interview, etc.).
■1 officer was killed while handling, transporting, or maintaining custody of a prisoner.
■1 officer died after responding to a disturbance call.

■35 officers were killed in 2008 with firearms. Of these, 25 were killed with handguns. (A breakdown of the types of weapons used in these slayings is provided in Table 27.)
■4 officers were killed with their own weapons.
■4 officers attempted to use their weapons; 11 officers fired their weapons.
■19 officers were slain with firearms when they were 0-5 feet from the offenders.

All the stats can be found here

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:46 AM by Prof. Skrewloose

Outstanding post! About time someone laid down how fire-fights (basically) work!

Its a far cry from television and movies! The bad guys can and WILL kill you with one shot! Even a good graze can bleed out or render your combat effectivness zero!

And yes...usually never know you're in a fire-fight until someone starts shooting at you! Or someone in your party hits the ground in a pile!
Never under estimate the devistating damage a bullet can do! Especially after it impacts and starts it's tumble!

Something all you revolutionaries need to keep in mind!

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:46 AM by Solomons

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

You are correct, it would be a waste of life if some criminal shot and killed you or a family member. Anyway, cheers for the link. Surprisingly short distance actually from what i would have thought is the typical scenario.

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:51 AM by Prof. Skrewloose

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

Are you serious?

Are you refusing the right to defend yourself? Or making a broad statement about war in general?

No sane person LIKES using guns on other people. But if it comes between me or them...well F@#$ THEM! They gave up their right to live when they decided to take mine, or a loved one's away!

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 08:54 AM by Freq Of Nature

reply to post by Prof. Skrewloose

There is always another way that doesn't have to lead to death!

After your response though I'm not going to waste typing any more on this thread!

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:05 AM by DaddyBare

Originally posted by Freq Of Nature
Ask yourself why you need to be firing that gun in the first place?

What a waste of life

Must be nice to live such a sheltered life...
the last gunfight I was in happened just last year while I was on vacation with the family... walking into one of those tourist traps for road snacks, gas and a chance to stretch our legs and just like that some guy pulls a revolver..."This is a hold up"... How close were we? I literary hand my hand on his shoulder when he turned to shoot me!

Sadly I was unarmed, a mistake I will not make again and the only reason I wasn't shoot is about four of us all tackled him at the same time... start to finish, 20 seconds tops, tips my hat to those big Oklahoma farm boys out there too, saved my butt...

Of course if it happens to you feel free to explain your Pacifist love on earth views... who knows you might have time to get two or three words out?

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:11 AM by thisguyrighthere

Massad Ayoob has some very nice articles and lectures on the subject of gunfights and real world exchanges of fire. He's spent his entire career studying them and interviewing those involved and training with all sorts of 'experts'.

His videos have some nice points. He shows just some random guy and from a standing position he closes a 20' gap in like 1.5 seconds.

He also takes to task the myths or fantasies of the super ninja attacker or the super ninja defender as in "I'll just disarm him with my Akido" crap and brings it all down to the real world.

If you're the type to use torrents his videos aare around. If you'd rather read his articles and lectures are all over. If you want to take classes he has a school in NH. The Lethal Force Institute.

Here he is talking about distance in encounters:

YouTube Link

[edit on 10-3-2010 by thisguyrighthere]

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:14 AM by Asktheanimals

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

Youre so right, you can always shoot them in the leg then run away.
Those incapable of defending themselves will always lose.

Bet you don't have any children, do you?
If you do don;t you think they are worth protecting?
There isn't always "another way".
NOBODY goes looking for a gunfight.
Guns are only drawn as a LAST RESORT, when you can't leave, talk them out of it or otherwise defuse the situation.
If you choose to NOT defend your own life that's your business.
In America we have the RIGHT to defend ourselves and the lives of those we love.
I think peace is great, I'm trying make sure things stay that way!

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:21 AM by OutKast Searcher

reply to post by DaddyBare

that one clue to staying alive, is that all the survivors had one thing in common... they kept the front sight within their cone of vision!!!

I'm just wondering how they asked the ones that didn't survive to see if they kept the front sight within their cone of vision also???

I never understand when studies are done about what "survivors" did to stay alive...there is a good possibility that the ones that died did the exact same thing...and died anyway.

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:21 AM by Romans 10:9

Thanks for the article TS. Makes me wanna go hit the range this weekend and polish up.

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:24 AM by Freq Of Nature

reply to post by DaddyBare

Trust me my life is far from sheltered!

You need to look at it from the point of view of the attackers... What is driving them to do what they are doing?

They aren't the real enemy! Its this society... The economy... It caters for most people but what about the ones that it doesn't?

You just proved to me and everyone in this thread, in your post that there are always other ways to deal in a situation such as this one.

I wasn't shoot is about four of us all tackled him at the same time... start to finish, 20 seconds tops, tips my hat to those big Oklahoma farm boys out there too, saved my butt...

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:35 AM by DaddyBare

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

There's always a lot of factors at play... but the stats do give some clues...
Only 10% of shots fired hit their target...why... someone was in to much of a hurry or to rattled or just poorly trained...

Go read the article he does break it down better than I can... and remember it's these little things that might keep you alive when push comes to shove...

Without fail, the people who remember seeing or using their front sight are the ones who were prepared to engage in combat. Good examples of this are soldiers on the field of battle or SWAT cops who know going in that they are quite likely to shoot. These folks kept sights in their "cone of vision" and relied on them when a hostile target was encountered. I have also experienced this phenomenon while working narcotics for a number of years. Prior to raids and vehicle takedowns, I would visualize in my head what I planned on doing, including where my firearm would be. This position would always be some type of high ready position where the gun and its sights were within my "cone." I found that during the operation itself, that when I encountered potential hostiles, I could shift between the actions of the suspect and the location of my front sight with little problem. The big difference here is that I was "prepared" to engage and not caught in startlement. Awareness is as important to gun fighting as is trigger control.

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:38 AM by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by Freq Of Nature

You need to look at it from the point of view of the attackers... What is driving them to do what they are doing?

From personal experience and interviews it's either for fun or to impress some other retard and earn 'street-cred.'

This notion of crime to feed the family is absurd. We have three teens up here right now waiting trial for breaking into a womans home and sawing her head off then stabbing her little daughter. Right in front of the cameras and everyone else at a hearing they started laughing and said they always wanted to do kill someone. It seemed like fun.

Street cred stickups

Robbing banks for the fun of it

People dont rape, kill, destroy, or otherwise violate other people out of need or some fantasy of social injustice.

Seriously "your honor, I needed to beat and rape that 70 year old lady, shoot her dog and burn her house down" would work as a viable defense for you?

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:41 AM by Acid_Burn2009

Closest I have ever been is about 200-300 yards, never anything close up. I guess that is why Marines train/rifle qualification goes to 500 yards.

With the correct training, being shot at triggers an instant reaction and you instantly go into fight or flight mode. I have seen some of the toughest, hardest guys fall to the pressure. Cowering behind cover, crapping their pants and what not. I am not judging them because it is normal and happens quite often. I don't care who you are, if you are not scared out of your mind when it happens then there is something wrong with you. Fear is healthy. Those of us with training or military combat experience are not immune to this fear and hope the countless hours of training will kick in.

The "Rambo" mentality is just stupid. spraying rounds in the general direction of your assailant(s) is stupid and a waste of ammo. As hard as it may be, you need to keep your wits about you.

I also carry concealed in my civilian times and have never had to take my weapon from it's holster.

Just my .02 to add to the OP's thread.

-Nate

P.S. I have heard that you never hear the shot that hits you. Anyone that can add confirm or deny this?

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:45 AM by DaddyBare

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

Let me pick a different example then one I don't like to remember...

Just over six years ago I was in a much different gun fight... didn't know I was in a gun fight until after my fifteen year old son took a 12 ga shotgun blast to his little chest! I will never forget the frighten look in his eyes and he desperately tried to keep his internal organs from spilling to the floor...

Preach all you like...
Me I'll keep learning and practicing so that something like that never happens again...

Note to reply to post by Acid_Burn2009

My son did...

[edit on 10-3-2010 by DaddyBare]

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:53 AM by Freq Of Nature

reply to post by DaddyBare

I'm sorry to hear of something like that, but its not going to change the way I look and feel at guns or weaponry!

Like I said there is always another way...

I'm sorry you have to feel this way about humanity!

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Freq Of Nature]

reply posted on 10-3-2010 @ 09:58 AM by semperfortis

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

OK, I'll bite..

Scenario:

I'm walking down the street with my wife. Some guy recognizes me as I put him in jail for a year and he has just gotten out. He is drunk and pulls a 9mm Beretta and starts shooting at me from 35 feet away.

What options do I have other than shoot back?

Die? Watch my wife die?

Semper

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