What Really Happens In A Gunfight

Basically its always a crapshoot,youre either crapping or shooting OR BOTH.

I might add that the first muscle you use in a gunfight is the one you train the least,your arse hole,and I'm not kidding ,just wait till you hear the first shot even if you think you are expecting the bang its the INTENT that puckers you up.

[edit on 10-3-2010 by one4all]

Any criminal that get into a gun fight with the cops is a nut case.
they know that there is little chance to get away with it.

But criminal that get into gun fights with civilians are just as likely to be as surprised as the civilian.

They think they are committing a crime on a unarmed civilian until SHTF.

Your time from drawing to first shot needs to be the bare minimum.
even if you just fire the first shot into the sidewalk at his feet.(You might get lucky and rickashay one into his legs. That would hurt)

Don't give him time to think.
Don't give him to react.

And don't give him time to aim.
And don't stop firing till he is down and out.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Thanks for the personal note...
I didn't mean to drag my story into this but I got a little.... excited...
anyway since you went out of your way I'll offer something special just for you... here's a few thoughts on your 380 from the grand master himself Massad Ayoob...

Now we're getting into some decent stopping power. The three or four best .380 JHP rounds have better stopping power than ANY bullet fired out of 2" barrel .38 Special snub-nose. All of the Big Five make good hollowpoints for this caliber. The Remington 88 grain JHP is the most reliably-feeding hollowpoint but slightly less effective than the Hydra-shok or Cor-Bon. Reliability is crucial, and thus you must test the rounds before carrying.

I recommend the following two cartridges above all others:

-Federal 90 gr. Hydra-shok (P380HS1 H) - the best standard-pressure .380 JHP load, period.
-Cor-Bon 90 gr. JHP - the most powerful .380 hollowpoint, bar none.

These are the two best .380 loads, and I recommend them for these guns:
SIG/Sauer P230, Beretta 84/85, Browning BDA, CZ-83, H&K P7K3, Walther PPK and PPK/s. The Russian, East German, Chinese and Bulgarian Makarov pistols are apparently perfectly reliable with the hot Cor-Bon, and the strong all-steel construction of these guns should stand up to an infinite amount of these potent rounds. I have heard that the Colt does also well with the hot Cor-Bon JHP, which you should definitely look into if you own a Colt .380. You have better stopping power than any .38 snub-nose revolver (the long-time favorite concealment sidearm) when you load your .380 with these two rounds.

Other good .380 ACP jacketed hollowpoints:

- Remington 102 gr. Golden Saber BJHP (GS380M) - Another excellent .380 load (the BJHP stands for "Brass Jacketed Hollow Point"), the heaviest one available. I prefer the Cor-Bon and Hydra-shok, but many (including Sanow) like this new Remington round for its deeper penetration. I'll stick with the Cor-Bon and Hydra-shok, but the choice is yours.
- CCI-Speer 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP A good all-around hollowpoint.
- Remington 88 gr. JHP (R380AI): A good high-velocity hollowpoint that feeds well in: Colt Government Model .380, H&K HK4, Taurus PT-58, older PP and PPK, Bersa .380, Beretta 70s, Makarov and Hungarian FEG. These are all good guns that might choke on other hollowpoints but they will probably feed the Remington fine. This hollowpoint was redesigned in 1993 and gives excellent performance while retaining its rounded shape for positive feeding. If your .380 chokes on other JHP loads, try fifty rounds of the Remington 88 gr. through your gun and see if it improves.

.380 ACP hollowpoints to avoid:

-Winchester 85 gr Silvertip (X380ASHP) I really cannot recommend this weak and jam-prone round. It works reliably in a few modern European guns (e.g. SIG 230, Beretta 84F), but every load named above offers better performance. The Silvertip will likely jam in any American-made .380 automatic. Russian .380 Makarovs and PPK series guns may jam with the Silvertip, as well. The .380 Silvertip was once state-of-the-art, but has since been superceded by superior designs. It is also quite expensive. Look elsewhere.
- PMC-Eldorado Starfire 95 gr. JHP This round is similarly weak and jam-prone.
- Federal 90 gr. JHP (380BP) (see below)
- Hornady 90 gr. XTP-HP (9010) Both the Federal 380BP and the Hornady XTP-HP never expand and may jam many guns due to their truncated-cone bullet nose profiles. Pass by these two.

See the 380 was an excellent choice

if anyone wants to read about their fav cartage click the link below
How the Rounds stack up

reply to post by DaddyBare


Thanks buddy. I wish there were choices out there for .380 ammo but there is hardly any available anywhere. It's ridiculous. It took me a month to find anything other than the magsafe at $2 a round (still good ammo, but c'mon! $$!!).
My first choice would be hydrashok (can't find). I just checked cabela's and they have cor-bon .380 available right now. Ordered something else a few days ago as it was the only available though I cant remember what brand it was. I just got all excited because I found SOMETHING!
I've been teaching the wife how to shoot and she hates all my 9mm's. The .380 has just enough kick that it isn;t too uncomfortable for her to shoot. I switched from carrying a 9mm to the .380 after reading reports on the stopping power of the cartridge which is surprisingly good.
The other factor was how light and small the Ruger LCP is (or the keltec .380 which they copied from). Most comfortable CC gun hands down.
It's good to know what ammo to avoid as well but right now we just need lots of cheap bullets to get well practiced. So far I can hold 6" groups at 7 yards but the wife often misses the paper altogether. She said she was saving the bullseye for someone else

Excellent info, thanks again.

reply to post by DaddyBare


Interesting. I was still under the impression Ayoob did not like .380 and believed it not to be worth carrying? Maybe this is a "if you must carry a .380" type of article?

I have to admit reading it made me feel better about my recent .380 purchase.

They seem to be the hot guns right now with the Kel-Tec 3AT, Ruger LCP, Taurus TCP all competing for the ~$300 pocket gun market.

Here he is in an article:

Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly.

www.backwoodshome.com...

More from Ayoob on the new 380's

The baby .380s are here to stay. Yes, they are marginal in power. Yes, I'm the guy who said "friends don't let friends carry mouseguns" But the fact is, something is better than nothing, and for a lot of people, 10-ounce .380s will make the difference in whether they can carry a gun or not, at least sometimes. There is a reason they've become so popular.

findarticles.com...

[edit on 11-3-2010 by thisguyrighthere]

Originally posted by Freq Of Nature
reply to post by Prof. Skrewloose

 

There is always another way that doesn't have to lead to death!

After your response though I'm not going to waste typing any more on this thread!

LOL we aren't living in candy land if you don't meet violence with violence you are dead. in some cases taking the moral high road leads underground. if someone broke into my house i would shoot them in the chest and sleep like a baby soon afterwards.

reply to post by DaddyBare


One really good round was left out of that article. The newer Corbon DPX bullet was left out. It has been highly lauded by many shooters despite the premium price.

Here is an article that compares it with the old Corbon, Federal and Golden Sabre .380 rounds.

Bersa .380 with Corbon DPX

I do have neither the money nor the temperature-controlled setting to use 10% ballistic gelatin. For that reason, I used two other mediums. These were water and "wet pack". The latter was plain newsprint that was soaked for 24 hours until super-saturated and allowed to drain for 30 minutes before firing. Both of these will stop bullets more rapidly than the gold standard gelatin, but some inferences can be made, I think...



Of the ammunition fired in my informal tests, the most consistent was the Corbon 80-gr. DPX and Remington's 102-gr. Golden Saber. The lighter DPX did penetrate deeper. In ballistic gelatin, the heavier Golden Saber usually penetrates between 9 and 10 inches. The 1" deeper penetration in the same medium by the DPX probably means it will get another couple of inches in the gelatin tissue simulant.

A Long List of .380 Ballistics Tests

Choosing the right bullet is almost as important as training. Some would say it is more important. I think it is all a complex equation and you need to calculate everything correctly.

Edit to add:

I just found out that Winchester is now offering their Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 ammo in .380. This is the same bullet (the PDX 1) that the FBI uses in their guns. In 9mm and .40cal the bullet exceeded all testing parameters for acceptable use by the FBI. That means it was tested through metal, sheet rock, glass, and clothing. It is obviously a dependable round. I don't know how it stands up against the Corbon DPX, Gold Dot, or Hornady TAP FPD. I would be willing to wager it compars more than favorably though. If you can find a box I would recomend trying it out.

I have used the 130gr .38spl+P PDX1 load. I thought it was a good load. It fired in a reliable manner, with average recoil, and did noticably more damage through two sheets of 1/2" plywood than 128gr Fiocchi Extrema .38spl+P.



[edit on 11-3-2010 by MikeNice81]

One point to address is the lack of Ammo choices... not just the 380 but its getting damn hard to find good rounds for my .44 mag my .357 and if I didn't reload I'd never shoot my .41 mag...

Only recently did I switch over to a .40 S&W as a carry gun... even walmart can manage to stock those...

makes me want to say you can have the best gun ever made but if you cant get rounds for it.... its just a pretty paperweight

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I know the data is kind of old. However, Evan P. Marshall claimed that through his studies he found .380s better than .38s for stopping attackers.

Copy of Marshall's Findings

His study found that the most effective .380 was about 2% more effective than the most effective .38spl in 2 or 3 inch configurations.

I am not claiming that Ayoob is wrong. I just want to point out that the subject is more complicated than people think. The bullet, barell length, and rifling are all said to affect the performance of a gun. That means you can have two guns of the same caliber and have widely differing results. It also means that stepping up a caliber might not net enough change to make it worth the time and cost.

(Marshall's study uses both law enforcement and civilian shootings. This means that comparisions of effectiveness between certain calibers are problematic.)

[edit on 11-3-2010 by MikeNice81]

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
*snip*

my Ruger LCP, having a low-profile front sight needs some spicing up. In fact, I just ordered night sight paint and was going to paint the back of the front sight and add two dots to the rear. I will have to drill holes in my gun (EEK!) but I'm good with metalwork and can make a clean job of it. That should give me the sight picture visiblilty I'm looking for in low-light situations.

*snip*

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Asktheanimals]

Firstly, thanks for carrying. It's important to be ready to defend yourself and your loved ones against those who would do you grave harm. (I have an Elsie Pea as well, though not my favorite "carry" gun)

Secondly, before you go drilling holes in your beautiful Ruger, look into "point shooting" techniques, which are faster and more effective in close combat situations. Although, I did apply a little white-out corrective tape to the front sight of mine, so it would stand out a little more.

It's also important for people to consider the fact that guns, handguns in particular, are NOT designed to kill, they're in fact designed to PROTECT (your butt). So, for all you gun-haters, consider how you'd feel, unarmed, if you suddenly found yourself in a situation where it was kill or be killed. You'd feel dead. Cold and dead. And stiff with rigormortis after awhile. And your loved ones would be sad.

______________________________

"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

reply to post by MikeNice81

His study found that the most effective .380 was about 2% more effective than the most effective .38spl in 2 or 3 inch configurations.

I am not claiming that Ayoob is wrong. I just want to point out that the subject is more complicated than people think

sometimes no mater how hard we think on it it still doesn't make sense..
look at the 10mm and the .40S&W (40 is a shortened 10mm) loaded with the same bullet and velocities you would think these too guns would perform equally, do they?
nope. for what ever reason the littler brother turns out better number? no one knows why...

These type of folks that go out and commit crimes are the trash... you cannot make excuses for their actions...they know the difference between right and wrong.... really do.
They cross that line into my world... I do not (and have done this) shoot for the leg... they are firing on me...i shoot for body mass and i do not stop till they are not moving... period.

sounds harsh but they are intent upon capping me...i just balalnced the equation and it is over... I have no regrets for ending a dirt bags life on the spot... they are trying to do me... well it is self defense...

And before someone makes the usual off handed remark about shooting them in the back, if they are running..... nope, 5 shots in the chest and they are not running away any longer...

society has gotten soft on the serious criminal element and has allowed these thugs and ounks to get away many times with not much more than a slap on the wrist... and sometimes the victim is often sued because the stood up and fought... where is the logic and common sense in that one...?

Nope for serious crimes of murder and harming children and rape, sodomy, and several others.... a one dollar bullet is cheap and they would get the shortest trial in all of judicial history...

I put these dirt bags away all the time after the run from the law and the courts... I hunt them down and i bring them in in any manner I so choose... I eliminate the problem by knocking the piss out of them and putting them right into a cell where they belong...

I have worked with cops for years now, and I have always had a good relationship with them. They do the dirty work a great deal.... but when they cannot find the clown...that is where i come in... no court show up...i go hunting... and sadly the hunting is pretty good...

Now I also do not like seeing some guy or lady in a cell for a couple of joints... waste of cell space... use alternative plans and get the person out of there... but habitual criminals... well just remove them from existance... cheaper on the tax payers and no one has to listen to the dirt bag crying that his rights were violated... when they actually have no regard for the person they just trashed.... pathetic is what is going on .... no one made them what they are... they chose and they had a choice as to what was right and wwrong...

I wanted to toss in this video. It has some good ideas for fighting a knife wielding opponet at close range.



[edit on 11-3-2010 by MikeNice81]

[edit on 11-3-2010 by MikeNice81]

Yesterday while were we all sharing our thoughts on training and debating the rights and wrongs of self defence someone posted this YouTube vid.

It's from a brave and quite scared little seven year old boy locks himself and his baby sis in the bathroom, and calls 911 after witnessing their parents shoot in a home invasion...

the tape is a bit harsh to listen too... but a stark reminder your safety and that of your children is in your hands.



Looks to be 8 parts but the poster has only upped 1 3 and 8... I'm hoping to hear the rest later

[edit on 12-3-2010 by DaddyBare]

Shoot for the leg? Hell do you know how hard it is just to hit the target at the range, let alone a stress filled fire fight were everything is moving all around you.
Don’t believe the s**t you see on TV.

Originally posted by murfdog
Shoot for the leg? Hell do you know how hard it is just to hit the target at the range, let alone a stress filled fire fight were everything is moving all around you.
Don’t believe the s**t you see on TV.

that is why when i teach people combat shooting and self defense.. iteach them to go for the largest body mass....

reply to post by Freq Of Nature


I think your right. If armed criminals break into my house, instead of me grabbing my gun and shooting at them ill just let them rape my wife, kidnap my kids, and kill me. Because after all guns are evil right. At least Ill die like a man in your book.

reply to post by Freq Of Nature


"There's always another way"? Ok mr liberal hippie. When armed invaders break into your house try handing them a flower and talking to them,Im just sure you will end up Ok.

reply to post by Freq Of Nature


Your right again. If a child molester tries to kidnap my child with a gun, Its the economy that made him do it. He must have lost his job and is depressed. You are so blind it's sickning. Has it ever accured to you that some people are just plan evil?

Well I will simply add this:

In the military I was in 3 small skirmishes. One in Bosnia and Two in Kosovo. The reality is, NOTHING goes as planned, TRAINING WILL take over, and the hollywood portail is BS. I spent 6 years in the 75th Ranger Regiment, 2nd Ranger Battalion, and am proud of my service, but even with all that training, all the top notch gear, and my boys by my side, the fear, excitment, tunnel vision, breathing, smell, speed, etc...hits you all at once. It is a rush that can be put into words, but never understood, no matter how many times you read it. Gotta be there to truly understand.

As a Law Enforcement Officer I have been in two shootings in 9 years. Both fatal shootings, but only one was caused directly by MY round. I can tell you, all the same things as above come rushing back, but the added kick in the a@@ is knowing your going to be sued, scrutinized, and second guessed. Trust me, getting into a firefight in the military has some very good advantages mentally.

Bottom line is, a REAL gunfight sucks and those of us who train daily to prepare for them hope they never come. But we also know the day it does happen, is the day all those days of training and taking this s--- seriously come into play. Train Hard, Train Right, Train Often...if you don't, you better hope someone is looking out for you, or luck is on your side that day.

Good Thread DB!