What Really Happens In A Gunfight, page 2

reply to post by semperfortis

---

I will admit in some scenarios it is near impossible to think of another way, such as the one you passed off to me. But without a detailed description of the area and what is in it I can't really do much can I...

In panic you will most likely start to shoot back... If that was what you were looking for?

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

---

No panic.. It's what I do..

Open street, no cover, early evening with plenty of light in front of a building but not near a door.

I will answer this for you

There was no other option.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not a stupid man and can usually see other "options" when they exist. Trouble is, the statement "There is always another option" is NOT always true.

Self Defense is just that.

Without a firearm, without the mind set to use that firearm, in the above scenario, my wife and I die. Just that simple.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your concern for life; but in a real world, the one we live in, those options are not always there and sometimes a person has to do what they have to do to stay alive.

Semper

reply to post by Freq Of Nature

---

You are right...but, people with CCW's are trained not to use their weapon unless deadly force is threatened or presented.

So, with this being the case, if I have to use my gun, then there is a damn good reason why...no one wants to go around shooting people...and those that do deserve what they get.

I'm going to put one of my posts from the Memphis gun thread here. I think it might be interesting to people like Freq.

You want stats I've got them.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics

In 2007 nly 15% of all violent crime occurs at school while over 1/3 occurs at home or near the home. 80.7% of the time the offender initiates the violence.

Here is the good stuff. 65% of the time when the victim uses self protective measures they help or improve their situation. The result of using self protective measures is the avoidance of injury or greater injury 52.4% of the time. 18.4% of the time it scares away the offender. That means that over two million victimizations are avoided or nuetraulized due to the ability to use force. 2.3% of those that resisted used a weapon.

That means more than 40,000 people protected their life with a weapon. Of the 40,000 people that used a weapon 13,920 used a fire arm. If you add in the 607 justifiable homicides in the same year you have conservatively 14,727 cases of firearms stopping violent attacks. That is a significant number more than the 10,129 lives taken with guns that same year.

That is my conservative reading using the statistics. I know some people that report higher numbers. I count only threatened with or attacked offender with weapon. Some people include things like captured, scared, or persuaded attacker. If you add in those numbers it gets to be hundreds of thousands of people. Because of the vauge nature of the reporting I feel those categories can not be included even though guns are some times used in those situations. (The number 40,000 makes my numbers even more conservative. However, it makes the math much simpler.)

So how does the simple truth that more people are saved by guns than killed strike you?

If I hadn't intentionally limited myself the number would be 88,147 people that sucessfully used a gun to defend their self or another person. That is found using the BJS data available here. Plus I added the number of justifiable homicides according to the FBI's statistics for the same year.

Also I only counted incidents with a single attacker. I completely forgot to add in the incidents with multiple attackers.

reply to post by MikeNice81

---

Great post thanks for the add good stuff there...

But once again we have to stress this all comes from good training, learning from from others who have been there done that and are still here to tell us what worked...

when it happens it happens so fast you don't have time to think or look up a reference, you react with instincts honed through practice and training...



[edit on 10-3-2010 by DaddyBare]

reply to post by DaddyBare

---

I completely agree that training is an absolute must. There is no substitute for knowing what you are doing and being prepared. The best gun is the one you know how to use.

My point was more for people like Freq that act like everytime a gun is pulled somebody gets killed. Most times nobody gets hurt. Honestly most of the time it prevents injury. Guns are about 800% more likely to be successfully used in a defensive manner than they are to maliciously take a life. The ratio doesn't change much even if you add in the other 642 accidental deaths caused by guns.

Articles like the one you posted help us ensure that these ratios continue to favor the honest citizen. Thank you BD.

reply to post by Beinion

---

Drops head in shame,,, sorry

to make up for it let me throw out yet another useful link
Beginers guide to stopping power

Originally posted by DaddyBare

reply to post by Beinion

---

Drops head in shame,,, sorry

No worries, Marine. I understand how it's easy to get caught up on a topic you're passionate about, and I for one am glad to see that people still care about the 2nd Amendment.

to make up for it let me throw out yet another useful link
Beginers guide to stopping power

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Beinion]

reply to post by Acid_Burn2009

---

I will try to answer your question about "not hearing the shot that hits you"(paraphrasing)

I have been shot 3 times, and blown up once. 2 were "grazing" wounds the first was in combat, under "machine gun" fire, to pintpoint the exact shot that grazed my arm, can not do it, too many rounds too fast, and I actually did not even know I was hit.

the second was a home invasion, (girlfriends house in NH.) that one I heard and felt, (grazed inner thigh, 1 inch below "family jewels")

the third was 14 years later, also a home invasion, but in VA. the intruder was actually shooting at my dog, the round went through 2 sheetrock walls and hit me in the side, dropped me like a sack of taters.. that one kinda fuzzy about, but I don't really remember"hearing" it..

Being "blown up" no friggin clue until I woke up in a Huey medivac...
so different circumstances equalls different experiances... hope this kinda helps...

reply to post by Beinion

---

I don;t think Freq is trying to derail the thread at all. In fact his comments bring to mind 2 questions - Why do criminals do what they do? and under what circumstances are drawing and shooting a weapon justifiable ( not only to the law but for your own moral judgement.
I do think a small percentage of crimes are economically motivated (robberies only) but there are socio-personal reasons for other crimes being commited. He's right about we DO need to be addressing those issues; abuse by family members, gang inititiation, media flooded with images of violence. I believe they are all contributing factors to those who commit crimes.
As for under what circumstances would I draw a weapon or shoot I would not hesitate if a loved one was being endangered. Were I alone and held up for money I might not even try to get my weapon, I might say "here's my money bro. I never saw your face" and give him my cash.
There's many factors that influence the final outcome and I think Freq's questions are extremely valid and illuminating.
Derailing the thread? No, he's ADDING to it.
thanks Freqofnature

Edit to add: If we all agreed with each other ATS would suck ballz and I wouldn't be here!

[edit on 10-3-2010 by Asktheanimals]

reply to post by Asktheanimals

---

I didn't really consider it from that point of view, and though I still believe they're two seperate issues, they do dovetail with one another and it does need to be considered.

All in all, point taken, and I apologize for coming off as strongly as I did.

Originally posted by Freq Of Nature
reply to post by DaddyBare

---

Trust me my life is far from sheltered!

You need to look at it from the point of view of the attackers... What is driving them to do what they are doing?

They aren't the real enemy! Its this society... The economy... It caters for most people but what about the ones that it doesn't?

You just proved to me and everyone in this thread, in your post that there are always other ways to deal in a situation such as this one.

I wasn't shoot is about four of us all tackled him at the same time... start to finish, 20 seconds tops, tips my hat to those big Oklahoma farm boys out there too, saved my butt...

So from your point of view every criminal is sane and has other options?
Not so.
There are many reasons why someone will pick up a weapon to murder someone. Ever hear of schizophrenia? A schizophrenic might attack and kill your whole family just because its thursday.
Not everyone in the world is sane and we have a right to protect ourselves from the dangerous ones.

reply to post by Darkice19

---

There is also the instances of a true psychopath that are being identified more and more. Those people completely without a conscious and sense of right and wrong.

They will kill you and your family and think no more of it than crushing a cockroach.

Not really going to be able to argue other options with them.

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis

---

the man who murdered my son spent time in a mental hospital, was sentenced to go back after the shooting... Stayed there for two years before budget cuts forced them to transfer him to outpatient status...

in other words he's back on the streets but they kind of watch him, kind of...

[edit on 10-3-2010 by DaddyBare]

Originally posted by Freq Of Nature
reply to post by DaddyBare

---

Trust me my life is far from sheltered!

You need to look at it from the point of view of the attackers... What is driving them to do what they are doing?

They aren't the real enemy! Its this society... The economy... It caters for most people but what about the ones that it doesn't?

You just proved to me and everyone in this thread, in your post that there are always other ways to deal in a situation such as this one.

I wasn't shoot is about four of us all tackled him at the same time... start to finish, 20 seconds tops, tips my hat to those big Oklahoma farm boys out there too, saved my butt...

I love this progressive attitude do you even realise how out of touch you are with the majority of people around you? Love your enemy because it is not his fault. Irony is a funny thing and when you tempt it to far.....


I actually kind of feel sorry for people like you the truth will always escape you and logic and knowledge you gain form life will always have to fit into your nice neat box.



People kill people a gun is just like a knife or a shovel for that matter it is a tool. And you whole bleeding heart thing about society is only a cover for your own short comings I believe. But your narrow mind will never allow you to see this and you will always pass the blame.

reply to post by DaddyBare

---

Very sad to hear about your son DB.
If you ask me ALL violent criminals are mental cases. Whether they realize it or not their actions wreak chaos among society and should be punished in the same manner - by keeping them away from society. Only the treatment should be different but never the length of the stay (know what I mean Earl? :@@
You sound like you have had more than your share of gun related situations. You can ask "why me ?" but the silence gets old waiting for an answer to that .
Trust that things are what they should be a God has a plan somehow, we just do our best to get along and see what's next.
Anyhow, great thread and sorry again for your loss.

Amazing French Indigo Girl in Africa (Tippi)
  Posted 2 days ago with 59 member flags

My Dad is on the NatGEO "Doomsday Preppers". And I\'m proud of him!
  Posted 10 days ago with 54 member flags

Hello again preppers and survivalist. Life changing reality.
  Posted 12 days ago with 31 member flags

Hobby or Second Income Homemade Soaps, Sundry, and Remedy Recipes
  Posted 17 days ago with 20 member flags

What Martial Art Is Right For You? Which Ones Are Effective? What Style TO Learn?
  Posted 12 days ago with 18 member flags

NATGEO Doomsday Prepper has guns taken away. Judged incompetent.
  Posted 2 days ago with 14 member flags

Lost for nearly a week, family considered eating pet. Would YOU do it?
  Posted 7 days ago with 10 member flags

Do Not Drink From The Tap!
  Posted 11 days ago with 9 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: