Eric Lawyer-Firefighter-911 was a Criminal Coverup

reply to post by hooper


Can you show us where you got your information? All the reports of discovered human remains say they were found in the locations of the crashed plane. The Pentagon, Shanksville, and the Twin towers, all the remains were found where the planes crashed. According to you, the human remains were thrown clear. Can you show us where you got this information?

Originally posted by REMISNE
If the fire was hot enough to destroy the rest of the plane it would have been hot enough to destroy DNA evidence, same as with the Pentagon.

this is a standard lie that "truthers" use. They make up the claim that fire destroyed the planes, ignoring the fact that it did not destroy all of the planes. They refuse to look at the evidence showing pictures of the wreckage of the 757 that hit the Pentagon, as they know that evidence destroys their made up conspiracy theory!

You know,
As I write this, there is a message above the posting box saying in part "make every post matter" something I try to do. in the thread itself, at the bottom there is also a message saying, "That due to member demand, this forum is under close scrutiny" a message seen in all 9/11 forum/threads. But there are some posts that are clearly misleading in regard to the statements as expressed in the video, as to written, linked statements inferring the same exact source, without any moderators note. I'm not talking about interpretations of dialogue in posts, but posts which are deliberately misrepresenting, and left to stand.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by smurfy]

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by REMISNE
If the fire was hot enough to destroy the rest of the plane it would have been hot enough to destroy DNA evidence, same as with the Pentagon.

this is a standard lie that "truthers" use. They make up the claim that fire destroyed the planes, ignoring the fact that it did not destroy all of the planes. They refuse to look at the evidence showing pictures of the wreckage of the 757 that hit the Pentagon, as they know that evidence destroys their made up conspiracy theory!

Mind if I ask how much DNA was collected from the places you claim that plane debris can easily be found? Just asking because when looking at the places they claimed to find the DNA, we see that it was supposedly in places where the plane no longer existed. Perhaps I missed something. You bringing it to light would be great!

Originally posted by evil incarnate
Mind if I ask how much DNA was collected from the places you claim that plane debris can easily be found? Just asking because when looking at the places they claimed to find the DNA, we see that it was supposedly in places where the plane no longer existed. Perhaps I missed something. You bringing it to light would be great!

Sure, have a look at
www.cstl.nist.gov...

They collected enough to identify all the passengers and crew on board Flight 93 and 77

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by evil incarnate
Mind if I ask how much DNA was collected from the places you claim that plane debris can easily be found? Just asking because when looking at the places they claimed to find the DNA, we see that it was supposedly in places where the plane no longer existed. Perhaps I missed something. You bringing it to light would be great!

Sure, have a look at
www.cstl.nist.gov...

They collected enough to identify all the passengers and crew on board Flight 93 and 77

I did not dispute whether or not people were identified. What I asked about was the placement of where those parts were found. Your link actually contradicts your claim so let me ask you again.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the DNA was found in places where plane parts also survived? Your link shows them collecting DNA mostly where the plane had completely vanished. Did my question confuse you?

Originally posted by evil incarnate
I did not dispute whether or not people were identified. What I asked about was the placement of where those parts were found. Your link actually contradicts your claim so let me ask you again.

Yes, that Edson paper only seems to "muddy the waters" with yet more questions and contradictory information.

The Edson paper appears to have been written in 2004, but was one of these Laboratory Information Systems Applications (LISA) actually developed and used back in 2001 for the Pentagon and UA93 investigations? I couldn't find the answer to that question in the paper- it was quite vague on that part.

This was interesting though:

B. Data Management

2. Case and Sample Tracking
Virtually all aspects of forensic science are bound by
the common principles of chain of custody. For this
reason, it is imperative that any LIMS be able to manage
and track evidentiary materials throughout their lifecycle.
LISA tracks packages, AFDIL cases, and evidentiary
specimens, as well as evidence retrieval and storage
information throughout the testing process.

I did not find any of the Sept. 11-specific chain of custody information and/or its release in that Edson paper though- perhaps I missed that part. The paper did spend quite a while discussing technical details and some identifications done by the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL), including a B-52 shot down during the Vietnam war.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
reply to post by hooper

 

Can you show us where you got your information? All the reports of discovered human remains say they were found in the locations of the crashed plane. The Pentagon, Shanksville, and the Twin towers, all the remains were found where the planes crashed. According to you, the human remains were thrown clear. Can you show us where you got this information?

Huh??? All the human remains at the Twin Towers were found were the planes crashed? 1000' feet in the air?

As for my "information", read any of the accounts of the first responders, people that assisted with the clean up, the coroner, etc. I am not going to repeat commonly available material.

Remains at the Twin Towers were found (and are still being found) dispursed throughout the collapse zone. Human remains at Shanksville were found spread out around the impact zone. Human remains at the Pentagon were generally more contained due to the nature of the impact and the building.

reply to post by hooper


First of all, the plane debris came down with the DNA and the rest of the buildings so yes, the DNA was mostly found in the same place as the vaporized plane. I guess you thought something was still floating above NY?

As far as Shanksville and the Pentagon, you just said the same thing I did. Thanks for reinforcing that.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
reply to post by hooper

 

First of all, the plane debris came down with the DNA and the rest of the buildings so yes, the DNA was mostly found in the same place as the vaporized plane. I guess you thought something was still floating above NY?

As far as Shanksville and the Pentagon, you just said the same thing I did. Thanks for reinforcing that.

I've got to be careful. If I said that the remains were found "where" the planes were found that could mean anything that someone else would want to read into it. "Where" could mean Pennsylvania, Somerset County, the east coast of the United States, the Northern Hemisphere and inversely someone could argue that I was implying that the remains were all found in their plane seats.

Originally posted by hooper
I've got to be careful. If I said that the remains were found "where" the planes were found that could mean anything that someone else would want to read into it.

I guess maybe if you pretend English has no rules and words have no meaning then, perhaps. I am not sure how else to interpret those words. "Where" has an actual meaning and if you do not intend to use words as what they mean, then there is no discussion to have.
Either the remainse were found where the planes were or not.

"Where" could mean Pennsylvania, Somerset County, the east coast of the United States, the Northern Hemisphere and inversely someone could argue that I was implying that the remains were all found in their plane seats.

Well, if you are playing little semantic word games, then sure. I am not. My words mean exactly what they say. Considering your logic on the wing scars and this pitiful argument, all I can say is that you should have just asked me nicely to put you on ignore and this could have been much easier for you.

Originally posted by hooper
Second, the fire was not of sufficient volume or intensity to completely vaporize the physicality of the plane. That claim is unique to the truth movement. No official has ever made that claim.

Gee, according to the official story you believe in fire did destroy what was left of the plane at the Pentagon.

Why else would they have needed the aircraft fire fighting truck with foam to fight the aircraft fire?

Originally posted by dereks
They refuse to look at the evidence showing pictures of the wreckage of the 757 that hit the Pentagon, as they know that evidence destroys their made up conspiracy theory!

The wreckage has not been properly identified as belonging to a 757.

In fact most of the evidence and the FBI official reports have not been released so anyone claiming they have showed evidence in support of the official story is being dishonest.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


I try to not play semantic games, however, you are not the only one reading the posts. I have to write to a broader audience.

Yes, generally the remains were found on or about the crash scene. But, of course we have three very different crash scenarios (I am considering both planes crashing at the WTC to be, in effect, one scene or scenario).

So what is the point? At all three scenes remains were collected and sent for DNA analysis and typing. Easier at the Pentagon because the range of possible identities was limited to the passengers and a relatively small group of individuals in the building. Easiest at Shanksville because the range of possible identities were limited to the known passengers of Flight 93. And, of course, very difficult at the WTC due to the enormous range of possible identities.

So if there was many fire/rescue personel/chiefs who thought or believed that a bomb of some kind brought down the first tower,

why then would these same people continue with the searches on the other towers.

Wouldn't they have evacuated themselves first from the scene until such a time as this could be confirmed.

Wouldn't they have reported this to their higher-ups or straight away moved their command centres from inside those buildings to somewhere safer.

wouldn't they all then be looking to find these so called bombs throughout the other buildings.

Yeah I'm sure all these rescuers had their hearts set on saving survivors or injured, but really don't you think they would look after number one first and formost if they knew for certain.

reply to post by redgy
William Rodriguez, the man with the keys, heard explosions. It didn't stop him going and opening doors and saving lives, and it nearly cost him his own life... he was trapped under a fire engine for sometime himself.

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Here is a FDNY firefighter that thought there was explosives in the buildings...

Right after the first World Trade Center tower collapsed, at 9:59 a.m. on September 11, 2001, Father John Delendick--one of New York Fire Department's chaplains--ran down a ramp to below the nearby World Financial Center, so as to escape the dust cloud. There he met with Deputy Chief Ray Downey, the head of the FDNY's Special Operations Command. Delendick asked Downey if the jet fuel from the plane had blown up, thus causing the South Tower to collapse. According to Delendick, Downey "said at that point he thought there were bombs up there because it was too even." [1]

Coming from a senior firefighter, this claim is significant enough. But it is even more so because Downey was no ordinary firefighter. Prior to 9/11, he had "commanded rescue operations at many difficult and complex disasters, including the Oklahoma City Bombing, the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, and many natural disasters worldwide." [2] As the chief of the FDNY Special Operations Command, he'd pioneered techniques for urban rescue and responding to terrorist attacks. "He was so respected, so beloved," according to CBS News, that "his men nicknamed him 'god.'" [3]

Of most importance is that one of Downey's areas of expertise was building collapses. 9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer referred to Downey as a "very, very respected expert on building collapse." [4] Robert Ingram, a battalion chief in the New York Fire Department, has called him "the premiere collapse expert in the country." [5] And Fire Chief Mike Antonucci, who was a best friend of Downey's, said he "was probably the most knowledgeable person on building collapses there was. That was his [hobby], to study building collapses--what affected the engineering of buildings, how they [would] weaken and how he could respond and stay safe." [6]

And this 39-year veteran of the New York Fire Department, who was the most highly decorated firefighter in its history, initially believed the South Tower had come down due to explosives, because the collapse had been "too even." Unfortunately, Ray Downey is not with us today, as he was killed when the North Tower collapsed at 10:28 a.m.

yes there was a lot said by all, some very heartbreaking.
Just to add a few lines that were missed from a statement made by Father John Delendick:

"As we've since learned, it was the jet
fuel that was dropping down that caused all this."

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by dereks
They refuse to look at the evidence showing pictures of the wreckage of the 757 that hit the Pentagon, as they know that evidence destroys their made up conspiracy theory!

The wreckage has not been properly identified as belonging to a 757.

Yet another "truther" lie, the wreckage has been identified as flight 77

- what is funny is even the "truther" movement considers the "Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon" conspiracy theorists too silly for even them!

Originally posted by dereks
Yet another "truther" lie, the wreckage has been identified as flight 77

TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Please show me 1 official FBI crime scene report that matches wreckage to a 757 or do not post on this subject again.

TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Originally posted by smurfy
reply to post by redgy

 

William Rodriguez, the man with the keys, heard explosions.

That is not what he said in 2001, hearing explosions is just something he made up later for his speaking tour