reply to post by kozmo
Apparently you didn’t read it either, All it did was DNA test Certain Jews, it didn’t DNA test all of them, After 6,000 years do you think there
DNA will be the same? Remember they were taken from their Lands and spread out through the world, and of course they most likely inter-married other
"races" ( i use that term loosely.) Good God you people I swear A Jew, is A Jew... They have a country now called Israel and it isn’t going to be
taking away from the unless there all killed. So get cracking on that and good luck My moneys on Israel.
DNA PROOF Jews NOT Semites!!!, page 2
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 03:27 PM by kozmo
Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by kozmo
Christian huh? That makes you a spiritual Jew.... A wild olive plant that is grafted into the cultivated one... A member of the commonwealth of Israel.. But if the cultivated branches can be removed from the olive tree, how much easier the wild one grafted in??? Don't boast against the root then, because the root supports you..... Christian???? Yeah right! Do people in your church read from the white bible by any chance?? Do they wear pillow cases with holes for eyes in at the weekend for a good old session of cross burning??
Why don't you test to see if you are telling the truth? Test my DNA.. See how Semitic I am... You will not be happy with the result I assure you.. Your world view would change very quickly my friend..
Boy oh boy - stir the pot!
It is not mutually exclusive - Just because SOME Jews might be Semite, does NOT mean that ALL Jews are Semites -
although they would have you believe so! FYI, I no longer attend "Church" and No, I have never been affiliated with the Klan or any other hate group. Thanks for asking though.
Finally, none of your ranting changes the fact that the premise for the creation of Israel is destroyed!
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 03:36 PM by kozmo
reply to post by Tiger5
Question... Why do those who practice Judaism attempt to walk on both sides of this issue? Anyone, at any point in time can decide to practice Judaism and declare themselves a Jew. Fine! Those who practice Islam are Moslem and those who are Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran etc... are Christian. NONE of those denominations are races... they ARE religions and one identifies with that religious group. Great!
The difference, and the issue, is that the Jews also claim to be Semites - the direct descendents of those who settled and occupied the Holy land which is presently Israel. The problem, and the issue I am attempting to illuminate, is that they are NOT. The Jews, however, continue to level claims that they have a justifiable right to that land based on their race and ancestry. Again, the article CLEARLY demonstrates these claims to be disingenuous at best and a deliberate lie at worst.
Question... Why do those who practice Judaism attempt to walk on both sides of this issue? Anyone, at any point in time can decide to practice Judaism and declare themselves a Jew. Fine! Those who practice Islam are Moslem and those who are Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran etc... are Christian. NONE of those denominations are races... they ARE religions and one identifies with that religious group. Great!
The difference, and the issue, is that the Jews also claim to be Semites - the direct descendents of those who settled and occupied the Holy land which is presently Israel. The problem, and the issue I am attempting to illuminate, is that they are NOT. The Jews, however, continue to level claims that they have a justifiable right to that land based on their race and ancestry. Again, the article CLEARLY demonstrates these claims to be disingenuous at best and a deliberate lie at worst.
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 04:03 PM by Yissachar1
reply to post by Point of No Return
I would gladly send samples of DNA to anyone who wishes to test it.. And no.. My family wouldnt mind...
I would gladly send samples of DNA to anyone who wishes to test it.. And no.. My family wouldnt mind...
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 04:12 PM by Jakes51
You would be hard pressed to find anyone with the original semitic DNA of Jews from the Biblical times, considering how many times they were expelled
from Israel. However, from the genetic studies I have read about the topic, there are Middle Eastern genetic markers in the DNA for all groups
claiming Jewish lineage: from the Middle East, Europe, and even the far East. Now, the stickler for many, regarding the Ashkenazi portion of Jewry?
From what I have read about their genetic signature, they to have a genetic link to the Middle East as well, maybe not as defined as others.
New Light on Origins of Ashkenazi in Europe
www.nytimes.com...
It stands to reason some remained in the Middle East after the destruction of the Second Temple, some were taken to Rome as slaves, and others may have even ventured as far east as China to settle. All of the groups from those regions of the world have trace evidence in their DNA which ties them to the Middle East.
So, this issue of who has a genetic right to live somewhere is immaterial to me, and if one looks back, the Jewish people have been traditionally tied to the Middle East as much as the Muslims who originated out of Saudi Arabia in the 600's. However, we have to look at all the expulsions that took place in Israel during ancient times to see why the genetic signature is so hard to pinpoint. They were a group of wanders for 2000 years until 1948.
So, this genetic argument is like beating a dead horse, because it appears the Jews are not going anywhere, and likewise, the Palestinians. Maybe it is time to succumb to that simple fact? Or maybe not? However, all of the Jewish groups from the four corners of the world still adhere to the Torah, and that makes them Jewish, doesn't it? Just my humble opinion on the topic.
[edit on 2-3-2010 by Jakes51]
New Light on Origins of Ashkenazi in Europe
Research in Ashkenazi Jews has suggested that, in addition to the male founders, significant female founder ancestry might also derive from the Middle East, with about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population descended matrilineally from just four women, or "founder lineages", that were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE
www.nytimes.com...
It stands to reason some remained in the Middle East after the destruction of the Second Temple, some were taken to Rome as slaves, and others may have even ventured as far east as China to settle. All of the groups from those regions of the world have trace evidence in their DNA which ties them to the Middle East.
So, this issue of who has a genetic right to live somewhere is immaterial to me, and if one looks back, the Jewish people have been traditionally tied to the Middle East as much as the Muslims who originated out of Saudi Arabia in the 600's. However, we have to look at all the expulsions that took place in Israel during ancient times to see why the genetic signature is so hard to pinpoint. They were a group of wanders for 2000 years until 1948.
So, this genetic argument is like beating a dead horse, because it appears the Jews are not going anywhere, and likewise, the Palestinians. Maybe it is time to succumb to that simple fact? Or maybe not? However, all of the Jewish groups from the four corners of the world still adhere to the Torah, and that makes them Jewish, doesn't it? Just my humble opinion on the topic.
[edit on 2-3-2010 by Jakes51]
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 04:15 PM by Point of No Return
reply to post by Yissachar1
Right, so I assume you already have had this research done?
Why not post the findings to disprove the OP, this is your chance, why not grab it instead of making empty statements.
Right, so I assume you already have had this research done?
Why not post the findings to disprove the OP, this is your chance, why not grab it instead of making empty statements.
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 04:38 PM by Yissachar1
reply to post by Point of No Return
I have the proof in my DNA... I have offered it... Documents can be falsified and negated, DNA is irrefutable...
I have the proof in my DNA... I have offered it... Documents can be falsified and negated, DNA is irrefutable...
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 05:46 PM by kozmo
reply to post by Tiger5
Tiger... all interesting and valid points! I'll star that!
I don't have a problem with the Jews, per se. At least not your everyday Jews that I work and live with. Nice people for the most part. Can be a bit arrogant against non-Jews, but... whatever. I agree that it's the Zionists that are the primary problem. I guess my greatest beef is that your average Jew tends to identify more with the Zionist ideal of Jewry as opposed to the religious Judaism as found in the Torah, not the oft "Ammended" Gemara and Mishnah that comprise the Talmud that the Zionist have bastardized to suit their agenda. In fairnes, the same can be said of many other religious sects - although none so bloodlust as the zionists.
You see, it is my opinion that the Talmud is the easy way out of being a Jew. It contains teachings that are really quite contrary to the Torah, though I have no desire to begin exploring details in this thread. The point is that along the way, Judaism was hijacked and manipulated to conform and support the Zionist agenda. Much of that has to do with the idea that Judaism is a race, Modern Palestine is THEIR Holy Land etc, etc, etc... I would be more pleased and respectful to see your average Jew stand up and decry those completely false notions and set the record straight. As you have already seen, a great number of Jews are immediately jumping to the defense of the Zionist ideals without addressing the factual evidence that continues to be presented.
Tiger... all interesting and valid points! I'll star that!
I don't have a problem with the Jews, per se. At least not your everyday Jews that I work and live with. Nice people for the most part. Can be a bit arrogant against non-Jews, but... whatever. I agree that it's the Zionists that are the primary problem. I guess my greatest beef is that your average Jew tends to identify more with the Zionist ideal of Jewry as opposed to the religious Judaism as found in the Torah, not the oft "Ammended" Gemara and Mishnah that comprise the Talmud that the Zionist have bastardized to suit their agenda. In fairnes, the same can be said of many other religious sects - although none so bloodlust as the zionists.
You see, it is my opinion that the Talmud is the easy way out of being a Jew. It contains teachings that are really quite contrary to the Torah, though I have no desire to begin exploring details in this thread. The point is that along the way, Judaism was hijacked and manipulated to conform and support the Zionist agenda. Much of that has to do with the idea that Judaism is a race, Modern Palestine is THEIR Holy Land etc, etc, etc... I would be more pleased and respectful to see your average Jew stand up and decry those completely false notions and set the record straight. As you have already seen, a great number of Jews are immediately jumping to the defense of the Zionist ideals without addressing the factual evidence that continues to be presented.
reply posted on 2-3-2010 @ 07:18 PM by Kokatsi
I was under the imression there was new research published in Israel on this hotly debated topic. I am quoting from a quote made by mmiichael in
www.abovetopsecret.com... quoting from the OP text expounded by moderator AshleyD. The superquoted text's original was
published here: www.pnas.org...
Relevant here is the entire topic, but especially this quote made by AsleyD from the journal text:
"Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes."
I guess this is going to be a lively debate with science in it not only speculation. My wife has partly Spanish Sephardim partly Ashkenazi ancestors, but her Ashkenazi ancestors look quite a lot like Sephardim as regards local anatomical varieties - they are tall, lightly dark-skinned and dark curly hair. I suppose in later times Ashkenazim mingled with Sephardim in Eastern Europe as well... the stregth of religion is really interesting here wiht all the wonder rabbis sometimes distilling the wisdom of an Indian guru from the torah and sometimes the Kabbalah,
From an identity stadpoint it would mean little if there are only four prolific grandmothers that settled in the middle of a Khazar Kingdom anyway converting en masse. The historical heritage of mixing is more interesting to me - I think the Khazars were not at all peaceful, more like the Tartars but not as devastating. Anatomically (there are nice examples in artists' anatomy books when you are learning to draw human faces) many Ashkenazim here look similar to Turkic peoples of Eastern Europe, that have largely mixed into the local population - as they did in medieval Hungary. (Those guys looked different from Ashkenazim, but consider that at a given time ther were close to a hundred Turkic tribes were registered in the middle ages.) Turkic peoples then mixed with the native civilization building matriarchal cultures in Minor Asia, forming today's Turkish and Kurdish types. There are stil some faces of Turkish people you could mistake for an Ashkenazi.
With so much mixing, the thing may boil down to a simpler debate on Israel. A lot of Israelis maintain that Palestinians are simply Arabs, although research showed that actually many ancestors are sephardim. The same way, the accusation of anti-Israel people go like "You are led b Ashkenazi, and if it turns out to be only a runaway tribe from Easter Europe (Russia and the Ukraine), you have no rights to act as aggressively here.
So what do you do in a very mixed situation? People there todays curiously remind one of a sibling rivalry, in this case we can say "buried siblings". There could be as much genetic inheritance in the Ashkenazim in Israel as Sephardim genes in Palestinians...
For a Jew, this debate could mean we are fighting but ourselves.
I have not noticed many Palestinians clamoring for a recognition of their genes probably coming from Sephardim who neber left very far. The argument is one-sided here. Arabs could say there that they have the right of land because while all they did was convert to Islam, they have Jewish genes.
I wonder if on-palestinian Arabs have this gene or not? This was a patrilinear research, and Jewish inheritance has not always been matrilinear - I think that is a modern European layer.
The best would be to separate religion fom the ancestry in or thoughts and separate church and state on both sides of the Jordan. Well, intellectual Jews and Arabs do that sometimes in their gestures, but power and social structure has been predominantly tribal. These tribes, as we have seen, are far from being simple. The only difference will be who can cooperate with whom. I guess we won't see much of that until the summer. People tend to polarize on that debate these days ue to astrological influences.
Relevant here is the entire topic, but especially this quote made by AsleyD from the journal text:
"Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes."
I guess this is going to be a lively debate with science in it not only speculation. My wife has partly Spanish Sephardim partly Ashkenazi ancestors, but her Ashkenazi ancestors look quite a lot like Sephardim as regards local anatomical varieties - they are tall, lightly dark-skinned and dark curly hair. I suppose in later times Ashkenazim mingled with Sephardim in Eastern Europe as well... the stregth of religion is really interesting here wiht all the wonder rabbis sometimes distilling the wisdom of an Indian guru from the torah and sometimes the Kabbalah,
From an identity stadpoint it would mean little if there are only four prolific grandmothers that settled in the middle of a Khazar Kingdom anyway converting en masse. The historical heritage of mixing is more interesting to me - I think the Khazars were not at all peaceful, more like the Tartars but not as devastating. Anatomically (there are nice examples in artists' anatomy books when you are learning to draw human faces) many Ashkenazim here look similar to Turkic peoples of Eastern Europe, that have largely mixed into the local population - as they did in medieval Hungary. (Those guys looked different from Ashkenazim, but consider that at a given time ther were close to a hundred Turkic tribes were registered in the middle ages.) Turkic peoples then mixed with the native civilization building matriarchal cultures in Minor Asia, forming today's Turkish and Kurdish types. There are stil some faces of Turkish people you could mistake for an Ashkenazi.
With so much mixing, the thing may boil down to a simpler debate on Israel. A lot of Israelis maintain that Palestinians are simply Arabs, although research showed that actually many ancestors are sephardim. The same way, the accusation of anti-Israel people go like "You are led b Ashkenazi, and if it turns out to be only a runaway tribe from Easter Europe (Russia and the Ukraine), you have no rights to act as aggressively here.
So what do you do in a very mixed situation? People there todays curiously remind one of a sibling rivalry, in this case we can say "buried siblings". There could be as much genetic inheritance in the Ashkenazim in Israel as Sephardim genes in Palestinians...
For a Jew, this debate could mean we are fighting but ourselves.
I have not noticed many Palestinians clamoring for a recognition of their genes probably coming from Sephardim who neber left very far. The argument is one-sided here. Arabs could say there that they have the right of land because while all they did was convert to Islam, they have Jewish genes.
I wonder if on-palestinian Arabs have this gene or not? This was a patrilinear research, and Jewish inheritance has not always been matrilinear - I think that is a modern European layer.
The best would be to separate religion fom the ancestry in or thoughts and separate church and state on both sides of the Jordan. Well, intellectual Jews and Arabs do that sometimes in their gestures, but power and social structure has been predominantly tribal. These tribes, as we have seen, are far from being simple. The only difference will be who can cooperate with whom. I guess we won't see much of that until the summer. People tend to polarize on that debate these days ue to astrological influences.
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