Another Example that the US government is out of control

reply to post by BlackJackal


I think you should consider a different viewpoint. She's saying, "Don't vote for what will get you reelected, vote for what you know is right (which could very well mean they may not vote for it)."

Most politicians wont address risky issues during an election year. They will sacrifice doing the right thing in order to play it safe and get reelected. This not only extends to public opinion but also to donations from companys for election time TV adds and such.

If you're reading fox or cnn statistics, they are very slanted and not random concerning what the people want.

The will of the people isn't as clear as either of those make it sound. If you click here, you'll see that its basically down the middle with 52% apposing it and 44% for it, give or take 3% (If you're not convinced that this report isn't neutral, you can always Google a different report)

Just a different view for you to consider. Good Luck!

Originally posted by kozmo
It is amazing to me that only4 years ago the Democrats were ranting and raving over the reconciliation process - declaring it a consitutional crisis, an affront to the founding fathers and an abrogation of democracy. Yet, today they are doing EXACTLY what they railed against.

:sigh:

No, they weren't.

The "nuclear option" that the GOP was considering then would have ended the filibuster, period. It was about judicial nominees, not about a bill.

And it had NOTHING to do with reconciliation.

The reconciliation process is used often (16 of the last 22 times by Republicans) and is intended for budgetary items.

Health care reform is budgetary.

So, since the initial premise of your post is factually incorrect, the rest of your post is just more posturing and babble.

For a site that claims to be about exposing "The Truth," there is a surprising number of people ignorant about recent history. And, as you would expect, they are the the ones who purport to be the ones who know "The Truth."

Originally posted by brianmg5
reply to post by BlackJackal

 

I think you should consider a different viewpoint. She's saying, "Don't vote for what will get you reelected, vote for what you know is right (which could very well mean they may not vote for it)."

Most politicians wont address risky issues during an election year. They will sacrifice doing the right thing in order to play it safe and get reelected. This not only extends to public opinion but also to donations from companys for election time TV adds and such.

If you're reading fox or cnn statistics, they are very slanted and not random concerning what the people want.

The will of the people isn't as clear as either of those make it sound. If you click here, you'll see that its basically down the middle with 52% apposing it and 44% for it, give or take 3% (If you're not convinced that this report isn't neutral, you can always Google a different report)

Just a different view for you to consider. Good Luck!

Yeah, Good Luck expecting them to consider rational argument.

According to these people, somehow a representative voting his conscience, knowing he may well lose reelection is somehow subverting democracy.

These are the same people who complain about representatives doing everything they can to stay in office, and how that is subverting democracy.

Which is it? Like it being impossible for Obama to be both a Communist and a Nazi, or both a racist Christian and a Muslim, it's impossible for Congressmen to be destroying democracy by staying in office indefinitely AND voting their conscience knowing they will probably be replaced.

reply to post by brianmg5


You are correct, that is another way to look at it and a valid one at that.

However, the way I view politicians is that they should be representatives of the people not parental figures. My opinion is that government representatives should do just that and 'represent' the views of their constituents not their own views.

I have no desire for someone else to decide what is best for me, but, this is exactly what these politicians are doing.

reply to post by BlackJackal


I posted this on another thread, but it answers this one as well, "Where are we going?".
www.youtube.com...

How about this...now they arrest you for drinking, in a bar!
motherjones.com...

Originally posted by BlackJackal

If the representatives that the people elected actually listened to their constituents then the people would have a voice. The issue here is the people's representation has gone rogue.

Agree. Everyone reading this post should search their own conscience as to whether they have bothered to contact their reps in Congress. Pelosi said or implied something similar back in 2009 about not caring about the effect of the leadership's agenda on individual members.
And what happened next? We had a shocking election in Mass and a stalling of the health care control legislation.
The Citizens are what has slowed this train down.
It's not over 'till it's over. Info is power.
Contact your reps and do it often!!!

You know your government is out of control when...

THEY POSTPONE EXTENDING UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS TO GET CORPORATE TAX CUTS INCLUDED.

Damnit this crap is unbelievable!

Originally posted by brianmg5
reply to post by BlackJackal

 

I think you should consider a different viewpoint. She's saying, "Don't vote for what will get you reelected, vote for what you know is right (which could very well mean they may not vote for it)."
Most politicians wont address risky issues during an election year.

I cannot comprehend your logic. Accord to your thoughts, politicians should do whatever they please when poll after poll says Americans don't want it?? This is a case when members cannot coherently EXPLAIN what they are proposing.

The closest thing to what is going on with health care is Bush trying to ram amnesty down the throat of the citizenry when they didn't want it. (And if health care passes, this is coming up again .... on the Obama agenda.)

Originally posted by mothershipzeta
Health care reform is budgetary.

Oh, pleeeeeeeze!....do explain.

reply to post by mothershipzeta


Only keeping it simple - jeeeez! Yes, you are right - reconciliation is for BUDGETARY items. The Republipukes were trying to use it for judicial nominees. Now the Democraps are trying to use to seize control of healthcare.

What is factually incorrect is your assertion that the healthcare bill is a budgetary item - it is, in fact, a bill put forth to become a law. That is hardly a budgetary item. Budgetary items, since it is glaringly apparent that you do not know what one is, is defined as those government operations already approved by legislative decree that require funding. Try looking up the Byrd Rule to learn more about it!


You wrote: "Health care reform is budgetary.

So, since the initial premise of your post is factually incorrect, the rest of your post is just more posturing and babble.

For a site that claims to be about exposing "The Truth," there is a surprising number of people ignorant about recent history. And, as you would expect, they are the the ones who purport to be the ones who know 'The Truth."


I bet that makes you feel kind of... well, WRONG! Now, kindly step off of your high horse! Thank you!

[edit on 1-3-2010 by kozmo]

Originally posted by Grumble

Originally posted by LolliekThe people of this country have no voice.

Ridiculous statement. This is a democratic republic. We elected these people into office. They are our voices.

If you really believe in the people having a voice, you will accept and respect the decisions of your elected representatives.

Lol I literally laughed when I read this. Of course no offense. But Seriously, watch cspan.
This past half year I've really begun to watch because there are a lot of things they say that makes you go, "huh?"

ANNNND I LOVE IT when someone calls in and starts calling the govt. out or specific politicians out on their swindling ways (love watching them look around and sweat) and then the caller gets cut off and or ignored like they never called.
wtf mate.?

IMHO MOST politicians think they know better than the people and some aren't really too afraid to say it. (and that goes for any if not all parties)

Reminds me,
I was flippin through the tube the other night and Bill Maher was getting interviewed on Larry King, Bill said the people aren't really too bright and they can't really understand the issue to make that kind of decision, (can't really remember if it was regarding healthcare or the economy) and ol' Larry giggled and agreed. I wanted to slap both of them.

Str and flag OP.

Goes to show how our politicians take our govt. and our constitution seriously... seriously for themselves.
Clean House is the only way in my opinion.

well at least these people know what they're doing. vote them out and replace them with what? a bunch of rookies who can ruin things faster?

politicians don't grow on tree, we only have so many people who are willing to lead while the rest of you cry and complain about how they're leading you. get out of your house, go to the mall, or park, how many people do you see who give a rats a$$ about you and your country?

reply to post by BlackJackal


I don't think representatives are obligated to vote for issues based on how the public sees them. I understand what you are saying and would like to agree, but I can't and here's why.

For one, I would assume that our representative has a handle on politics and has educated himself on the subject, where your average Joe is not educated (well, most of the time) and therefore isn't a credible source for making a decision. They lack the vision of the "Big Picture," they only see what effects them.

Also, many people are influenced by propaganda put forth by both parties, special interests, mainstream media, etc. They may be fighting for something that they know nothing about and are only parroting something they heard someone like Glen Beck or Jon Stewart, or opera, rush, etc say.

And finally (and most importantly), why vote for someone who is simply going to look at a poll showing what the people want and vote on that and that alone? We vote these people in to be leaders, we vote them in because we'd like to think they know more than us. Representation wouldn't be needed if they simply based a vote off what the people wanted.

We aren't set up like that, that would be called Direct Democracy. We are under the system of Representative Democracy and unless our constitution changes to a Direct Democracy, this is what we got.

All that being said. I don't like what's happening either, but it goes farther back than the current issues, and in my opinion it's not repairable without some type of disaster. It all started with the central bank. The central bank and printed money were on the top of the list as far as things not to do. Our founders would be grabbing their guns right now and recruiting (something I don't think we should do).

Historically, every system based on capitalism and greed has failed. I firmly believe that we will see, in our lifetime, either the transition into a peaceful human existence on this planet, or a digression back to survival mode. All we can do is wait and see while being the change we want to see on the planet.

Also, another thought to consider, historically speaking, we are moving towards peace and have been for a long time. Evolution seems to be taking the lead regardless of whether or not the USA remains a country.

Anyways, this is a good debate. Hopefully some intelligent discussion and thoughtful insights will be taken away from it.

Originally posted by DOADOA
.... vote them out and replace them with what?

Yup, vote 'em out every term....like a well greased up-down escalator...keep doing it until we run out of people prepared to be politicans.
Less work they get "done", the better.
Democracy isn't just a goal; it's a living process.

Look the Pelosi's picture...If she got hit in the forehead...maybe that explains why she's saying that

reply to post by Jazz87


You really think the public knows what's best for a country? I'm not trying to demean you but really think about that.

The public usually has one interest, self. They can't see the big picture.

Wow! What arrogance are representatives are showing lately. Never mind your constituents? Our vote is our power, lets show them in November how it is.

The day our vote is not a tool to control those that have the people 's needs at the forefront is surely going to be the start of a revolution.

Pelosi better start biting her lip, she is freakin nuts!

you think you live in a democracy?

Chris Hedges, Pullitzer prize, and human-rights journalism prize winner

"the United States has developed a new form of corporate totalitarianism."

I Totally Agree ! We Must Have Term Limits, Get Rid Of The Lobbyists And Take back our government From Those Who DO NOT have The Peoples best Interest At Heart !!! But How Do We Do it With Out using violence ???.
Violence Will Only Get the national Guard Or worse Out In Force Against Us.
The Electronic Voting Can Be Manipulated, Not To mention Those Who Would
Vote For The Devil, If He Were A Party member Of their Party !!. or Palin Or
???? Who Knows.
I Often Wonder Why The twin towers Was The target, When Washington DC
Would Have Been A Better Target, After All Those Are the Ones Who Are
Taking Over Countries For Their Oil, And Other resources.
We Should also Get Rid Of The Secret Government Cronies.
I'm interested In Hearing how These Things Can Be done, These Bastards
Need To GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!