There is skepticism and, frankly, there is being an ass.

Something I've noticed lately is the notion that, in order to be skeptical about something in UFOlogy people think they need to belittle, be rude and - in some cases be downright obnoxious.

Now I'm all for healthy skepticism. Things deserve proper scrutiny. What I'm not interested in is seeing people being asses just for the sake of attempting to get a cheap laugh at someone elses expenses.

Theres an old saying - if you've got nothing good to say, don't say it.

Open, honest skepticism backed up with sound reasoning is great. I don't think anyone will ever have a problem with that kind of expression.

The sarcastic, belittling rubbish is not - in my opinion - the ATS way. We're supposed to do civilised discussion here.

Its not meant to be a schoolyard or a kindergarten.

Sometimes people see things they don't understand.
Sometimes they are mistaken.
Sometimes, however, people dp see things that are downright weird and unbelievable.

The genuine UFO sightings, the real golden stuff is likely to get drowned in a wave of sarcastic crap if we - as a community both on ATS and those interested in UFOlogy - fall into the trap of trying to stroke our own egos and appear witty at the expense of others who may simply be misguided in what they have seen, or genuinely have no clue what they have observed.

This is, of course, my opinion. I'm interested in hearing yours on the subject, particularly from those people who feel the need to try and make people feel as stupid as possible - I'd love to know why you believe you need to do that.

My take is that anything in the UFO category is personal opinion based.

Meaning, its up to you to decide, anybody else's input is just their input, and what they want it and see it to be.

Collier, Meier, all of those people have evidence that is controversial, yet its as good as evidence gets.

All in all, people need a firm reality perspective, one that is open, to properly address something.

Most people use what they have learned and go from there, which is a fail.

Physical reality can be quite a big paradox in all corners.

IMHO, though most people will claim they have open minds and are willing to explore, learn and teach alternative or new ideas, the reality is that most do not. The reality is that most have their minds made up and seek to justify it. If this is the case, than it is very difficult to accept a challenge to your ideas/opinions. It gets personal. Combine that with the [sad] fact that most people aren't taught and so don't know how to argue/debate their case without playing dirty...






[edit on 20-2-2010 by LadySkadi]

My skeptic thread got sent to BTS...probably because I am an ass.

But, I assure you, being an ass and being a skeptic are two separate things.

Some people are just great at being both.

reply to post by neformore

I'm interested in hearing yours

What you're describing is by no means limited to the UFO boards. The general level of courtesy, as well as the quality of discussion has fallen in recent years.

There seem to be a significant portion of ATS users who take great pleasure in belittling others. That is their motivation for being here. Not to discuss, not to debate, not to share or learn. They care nothing for information, and they're not interested in the actual subject matter of topics they reply to. They're simpy here to fulfill their emotional need to verbally hunt and destroy.

For these people, thought and logic are not useful tools. Insults are.

people who feel the need to try and make people feel as stupid as possible
I'd love to know why

They enjoy it.


[edit on 20-2-2010 by LordBucket]

what i've noticed lately is a let's call it a fake trend, users will post some interesting posts and most people will come to the thread and say its a fake without even giving a reason why they think its a fake. to debunk is one thing, its being logical, give proof of what we believe is real, but being an ass, arrogant and close minded is another.

this is what i call jumping on the bandwagon.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by Picollo30]

Lets not all forget how many posts/users are actually "off thier rocker" or plain out "ignorant" to a level that is very extreme.

I know some humans may be able to look past "laughable stupidity", but I for one am not immune to "poking the silly stick" at someone who is obviously being too generous with his "views on reality".

I am trying not to be directly rude to anyone who may take offense here...but fact remains-

There are some wack-nuts and liars here.

To address them all without sarcasm or jokes would be harder then "ignoring them".

I can do neither.

My experience is, when some troll reads a thread, sees something he disagrees with and starts attacking it.
Usually without even bothering to read the rest. Where it gets explained.

I really don't mind someone being sceptic. What's the use of posting a thread if you are not willing to learn from others.

So are people who are at ATS not willing to learn, to others. Useless.

In the spirit of not wanting to seem like a Nazi website with thought control and free speech removal, I think ATS sometimes drops the ball on enforcement of it's rules.

This is not to say that it happens all the time, but in some cases, notable ones, we loose the way of ATS by making small "exeptions" for some members while turning a blind eye to those who had to follow the rules.

I have seems skepticism here, and I have seen ridicule. The 9/11 boards I don't even frequent anymore because every second post contains nothing but poo flinging.

Civility and Decorum are difficult when ATS is growing at an exponential rate. It was easier I think when the website was less known and was less that 50k members.

But now almost hitting the 200 mark, things need to be said which were said way back when in the early 00's.

Granted I think the staff here to a wonderful job of attempting to create an environment that is fair and free from the BS that we see on other websites that I won't name....GLP....oops.

In any case, I think it will continue to be a trend unless the Mods and Staff step up enforcement and show that it just won't be tolerated.

~Keeper

Originally posted by Mr Mask
There are some wack-nuts and liars here.

To address them all without sarcasm or jokes would be harder then "ignoring them".

I can do neither.

Thats a failing on your part. Not on theirs.

Do you really have no self control over your own actions? Sounds like a cop out to me.

The people you deem to be "wack-nuts" may be experiencing things personally that you have no idea about. You don't know what is going on in their lives or in their heads at any given point.

And heres the interesting part - people criticise ATS because they say that the forum is "diluted with rubbish". An inability to refrain from posting sarcastic comments keeps that "rubbish" at the top of the lists, instead of it ebbing away.

You don't have to comment at all.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Usually more rules means it's also more occasions to break them.
Some can't control the urge to do so.

I don't think it will be a good solution.
Everywhere else ? Yes !

Not on ATS. Any topic about NWO loss of freedom would become unreliable at best in my opinion.

I just commented the option not your reply.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Usually more rules means it's also more occasions to break them.
Some can't control the urge to do so.

I don't think it will be a good solution.
Everywhere else ? Yes !

Not on ATS. Any topic about NWO loss of freedom would become unreliable at best in my opinion.

I just commented the option not your reply.

I see your point, and I don't mean to install more rules. Just enforce the ones that already exist. The T&C is pretty amazing if you look at it in detail, and if everybody followed it, this would be a much happier place.

There are some conspiracy theorists, believe or not, who DON"T belong here.

Yea I said it!

Those are the ones who simply believe what THEY believe and any other notion is nonsensical, even though their own opinions are pretty fringe.

These people should be encouraged to leave ATS IMO. The only way to do that, is to prevent them from doing what they do best, create and promote hate and pointless arguments among our own.

We should be a community of free thinkers, who LOVE the idea of our beliefs being challenged in an intelligent and respectfull way.

After all, we are just searching for truth aren't we?

Why destroy the ability to do so by dilluting the boards with this nonsense?

~Keeper

Originally posted by LordBucket
What you're describing is by no means limited to the UFO boards. The general level of courtesy, as well as the quality of discussion has fallen in recent years.

There seem to be a significant portion of ATS users who take great pleasure in belittling others. That is their motivation for being here. Not to discuss, not to debate, not to share or learn. They care nothing for information, and they're not interested in the actual subject matter of topics they reply to. They're simpy here to fulfill their emotional need to verbally hunt and destroy.

Once I was suspected as of wanting a special treatment when questioning the motives of these group of people. I also got "just use the alert button" thingy.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
In the spirit of not wanting to seem like a Nazi website with thought control and free speech removal, I think ATS sometimes drops the ball on enforcement of it's rules.

This is not to say that it happens all the time, but in some cases, notable ones, we loose the way of ATS by making small "exeptions" for some members while turning a blind eye to those who had to follow the rules.

Civility and Decorum are difficult when ATS is growing at an exponential rate. It was easier I think when the website was less known and was less that 50k members.

I agree. And I'm not expecting new rules to be made, just expecting a better etiquette.

Originally posted by LadySkadi
IMHO, though most people will claim they have open minds and are willing to explore, learn and teach alternative or new ideas, the reality is that most do not. The reality is that most have their minds made up and seek to justify it. If this is the case, than it is very difficult to accept a challenge to your ideas/opinions. It gets personal. Combine that with the [sad] fact that most people aren't taught and so don't know how to argue/debate their case without playing dirty...

Good words, LadySkadi, I applaud you. And you are right too. Most people with computers use them just for emails, IM, and playing games. They see search engines, but never use them unless they are looking for a bargain or that latest tune on Limewire. And most people live in a very comfortable box. Some boxes are pretty small too. they do not wish to come out of the box, too much information out there for little ol me! I often will tell a person something, and they will ask me, "where did you learn that?! Well, I learned it on my computer, I answer. This brings dumbfounded looks.

I know that I myself post a lot of UFO/ET related stuff in this forum. some of it may be over the head of someone not privy to such information. Anything I have said can be found in computerland, folks. Many times a simple search within this very forum yields results that cannot be found elsewhere. When I post something, it is not designed to make anyone feel any way. Especially I am not out to make anyone feel stupid, or dumb. I was like you once, unknowing and with no drive to learn anything new. Now days I am compelled to learn, I have no choice in the matter. I am taken to a place, I know not where exactly, and lectured on things mankind needs to know. Oh, I remember maybe 1/100 of it, but what I do remember, I tell the fine people in here. Oh, sometimes it is raw information, and sometimes very clear. I make no secret of this, I have stated I am in contact many times in this board. I have been called crazy, told to take my Prozac, and to check into the mental ward. Well maybe I am crazy, and maybe your mind is just blown because that hit you like a ton of bricks.

I am here most every day, have a question you would like to ask me? Ask away.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I can not agree with you more.

But what other options are left then ?
As I understand there is already a system to punish, Takes some stars away. Hardly any good if someone does not care.

I think stepping up of moderator's to force the rules on the ATS community, what you said earlier. Is a good option.

People who aren't able to adjust will be banned and those who can will have happy times once more.

I must say ATS is a better managed site then I'm used to.
So I'm already happy

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I can not agree with you more.

But what other options are left then ?
As I understand there is already a system to punish, Takes some stars away.

Hardly any good if someone does not care.

I think stepping up of moderator's to force the rules on the ATS community, what you said earlier. Is a good option.

People who aren't able to adjust will be banned and those who can will have happy times once more.

I must say ATS is a better managed site then I'm used to.
So I'm already happy

That's really what it's going to come down to. ATS will have to choose between being the best, or being the biggest.

You can't really have both. I opt for the best. Those who don't follow the rules can leave, end of story.

I'm not gonna cry if ANY current member left. Sure it would suck, but hey, people bring these things on themselves.

This is a business, and a fine one at that, much better managed already then the rest of the internet I work with day in and day out.

Enforcement, it's all that's needed.

Sure people will piss and moan in the beginning, but once the boards calm down, and there is less poo flinging nonsense, we'll all be MUCH happier.

~Keeper

reply to post by Picollo30


That is what is going on in some threads, they wait for their "skeptic" leader to post, then they can march in and kick the fallen.
No proof that what was posted as evidence is fake, no examples of similar things that can debunk the evidence, nothing, just plain old "I call this one FAKE" because that is how I am and if you decide to question it I will look up previous posts of yours and question your mental status.
These are the same type of people that request that the thread be sent to the garbage or deleted because they do not understand it and it bothers them but somehow they keep posting in it.
It is like seeing a thread about numbers and complaining that it is all garbage because you do not know math and don't believe in it and do not know anyone who has ever seen a math problem, therefor it is all garbage made by delusional people who are on drugs and that should be proof enough.

Originally posted by neformore
Something I've noticed lately is the notion that, in order to be skeptical about something in UFOlogy people think they need to belittle, be rude and - in some cases be downright obnoxious.

Personally I don't participate much in the UFO forum, for I for the most part, would rather look at the available evidence and keep my opinions to myself on that specific subject. However as has already been noted, asshatery isn't topic centric, and if one has such disposition they will apply it to all forums in equal measure. (let us not in this regard forget some the political, 9/11, creationism conversations)

We also all happen to have a bad day here and there where perhaps we should resist the urge to post. I have recently been informed that I don't need to post everything I think which in many regards is sound advice for us all.

Now I'm all for healthy skepticism. Things deserve proper scrutiny. What I'm not interested in is seeing people being asses just for the sake of attempting to get a cheap laugh at someone elses expenses.

Agreed, though the key word in the above expression in my opinion would be "cheap." For a well place humorous remark, if delivered with skilled wit and without malice, can cut through a great deal of nincompoopery.

Theres an old saying - if you've got nothing good to say, don't say it.

Conversely, there is another (relatively) old saying - if you can't handle the neural activity stay out of the neural activator. That is to say that over an medium such as an internet forum, offense can often be perceived where none is intended. Emotional and egoic detachment from one's opinions, helps mitigate both asshattery delivered and asshattery perceived ... indeed, when indifference to the person posting reigns and attention to the posts themselves prevails, there is little to trap us in personal confrontations, which as you so rightly noted is not the ATS way.

Some forums/discussions on ATS avail themselves to a high degree of participation. I have often wondered, in fact commiserated because of my own absence of knowledge, how a new ATS member would have a chance to learn anything in forums such as the UFO and 9/11 forums which are filled with heavy vitriol and well defined camps which are perpetuating an endless ongoing discussion which almost by definition excludes honest inquiry by a person who is new to the topic and is starting an earnest quest for information. As it stands I feel that unless I or others become current to the level of outright expertise with such subjects we are laughed out and ridiculed out of most threads.

So for myself, though I have been guilty of perhaps lashing out in a moment of short temperance (which I always later regret), I try to envisage how a new or perhaps younger member would be affected by the means through which I deliver contributions ... not altering the substance, but trying to apply a gentler hand.

But ... wit and humor without ill intent have their place too.

I think skeptics have a tendency to deny something they HATE. So, in order to compensate for being 'intellectually offended' they have to 'intellectually indoctrinate' someone.

I'm a skeptic myself, really. And I HATE how some skeptics will just throw a theory out the window because they don't like it. Concepts need to be rationally and logically deducted. Most skeptics forget to be reasonable about arguments. In most cases, I think they see their skepticism as an opportunity to completely reject an idea... before they fully understand what it means.

They're just thick-headed and ignorant is all. Let them blow off their steam... and show an example of how a good debater should be and act.

Huzzah for all you believers out there. Convince me if you can, and never give up!

reply to post by neformore


G'day neformore

As a member who makes a big effort to try to always post in a positive & reasonable tone.....

I think that broadly speaking, the tone across ATS is quite polite & measured when compared to other sites.

It is this reasonable "tone" that is one of the main reasons I find ATS appealing.

However, part of what I find appealing is also the "good guys vs the bad guys vs the out-there guys" arguments that arise at times.

You know.....

"I wonder what xxxx will say in his/her usual calm, logical manner"

"I wonder what xxxx will say in his/her usual take-no-prisoners manner"

"I wonder how xxxx will spin this out into his/her usual far-out-there approach to all topics."

It can be very entertaining to see a good stoush.....within reason of course.

I worry that if you sanitise things too much, it could get a little "dry".

The other issue I wonder about sometimes is members being allowed to show a sense of humour.

Sometimes humorous posts are removed as "off topic", when I think those posts were actually adding a little "fun" to proceedings.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not