Status of Women in Islam - Stopping the disinfo

where in the koran, the bible, the talmud does it give the wife permission to react to the mistreatment, seems that that was taken away with the obey, or your husband can beat you (mildly), statement!

seems to me that if permission is given to the husband to beat (mildly) his wife for having his dinner late, then well, equality would dictate that it also give the wife permission to beat her husband (mildly), if he just happened to sell his daughter into marriage!!
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I take it that there is no verse in the koran that gives the women the permission to do much more than just obey.....regardless of the treatment she receives.....
it just goes over how the MEN are supposed to treat the women...

you are arguing over which plantation owners treated their slaves more kindly.

I reject the slavery to begin with.

Hey bomeni, i gave you time and told you to brinng me the verse that i supposedly wouted, you didn't and i left. Prett simple. YOU OR ANYONE HAVE FAILED TO REFUTE MY STATISTICS ON WOMEN IN U.S AND THE QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, WOW TALK ABOUT FIGHTING WITH ONE EYE DOWN. WHAT A LAME EXCUSE FOR YOU.

reply to post by babloyi


You are simply wrong. Shiria law is a system of laws based on the Quran. It is not nepoleonic code. Nepoleonic code does not insist men wear beards, that you should not lend money with interest, that you can't drink alcolohol. Nepoleonic law is an form of common law that is not based on religious texts.

This notion of pitting the actual Quran and modern laws and mores in the Islamic is sheer foolishness. As it has been said many times, the Quran is a text that is meant to be intrepreted. The text is very poetic in nature. As a direct consequence of the vaguries which exist within the Quran and the ability to form multiple and often diverse intrepretations of it, Muslims have consistently relied on Islamic scholars to provide guidence to Muslims on how to act and live in accordance with the Quran. When this intrepretation is then formulated in to a system of laws that are used to govern, that is termed Shiria law.

How about a simple test. Take your next vacation to Yemen. Sit out in an open are with your wife/girl friend. Have her wear shorts and a t-shirt and pull out a bottle of wine of a few bears and a pulled pork sandwich and have a bit of a picnic. When the mob comes over and tells you to stop eating the pork, pour the alcohol out and have the women get properly dressed and full covered, simply tell them that you are acting in in accordance with your intrepretation of the Quran and see how far that gets you. You'll miss your flight home.

Documents are intrepreted. The bible is intrepreted. The Amish believe its says one thing, the Quakers another. The IRS tax code is intrepreted. Sometimes your intrepretation of it gets you jammed up with the IRS, who like Islamic scholars in the Muslim are the supreme body charged with the intrepretation of the tax code.

As I said in an earlier post, the countries where women are mistreated are not secular societies, but rather theocracies. Those societies have governing bodies made up with Islamic scholars which define the parameters in which the text in the Quran is to be formulated into a legal structures. In such a situation, that intrepretation IS the Quran.

The Vatican is also a theocracy. You can't take a Vatican tour in a bikini. You can't go into the Sistine Chapel in a pair of gym shorts. That is how Vatican scholars intrepret the bible. The big difference is that were you to attempt to enter the Sistine Chapel in a bikini they would ask you to leave and perhaps escort you outside of Vatican City. Attempt to enter a mosque in an Islamic society and the women would be beaten and likely jailed.

reply to post by dolphinfan

Originally posted by dolphinfan
You are simply wrong. Shiria law is a system of laws based on the Quran. It is not nepoleonic code. Nepoleonic code does not insist men wear beards,

There is nothing in the quran about beard-growing. But anyhow, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't say that shariah was derived from the napoleonic code. Here, I will repeat:

Originally posted by babloyi
Most so called "Islamic Laws" in place in the countries today that have them are nothing more than bits of leftover Napoleonic Code, from when those countries were ruled by someone else, mixed up with "Hey, this feels islamic, let me put this in".

And yeah, I've been to Yemen. There are women (mostly foreigners) who were dressed in shorts. If someone wants to drink alcohol (again, mostly foreigners), it is tolerated. And nobody goes around nosing in your sandwiches to find out what meat you are eating.

Sure, there are problems in Yemen, and thankfully the women are tackling them and gaining ground. In fact, Yemen would do well to apply some of the principles of Islam that the state pretends so strongly to be following.

See, this is the thing that amazes me. People are bringing up such wild claims, and they are being passed around, and recycled and shot out again, until it has been repeated so much, again and again, that everyone assumes they are true because there hasn't been space for anything else to be said.

For goodness sakes, if anyone was crazy enough to take what was said here to be fact, they'd think that the entire female part of the +1 billion muslims on this earth are either deceitful propagandist liars, or cowering baby-making machine wrecks who fearfuly cater to their husbands every whim all the while getting abused and belittled.
And if that really IS what you think, I'm sorry, all I can say is you should get out more often, because reality disagrees with you (and by "you", I don't mean you, dolphin- you don't seem to be exhibiting the behaviour I'm describing. It is a comment in general).

[edit on 13-2-2010 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
Winston Churchill quotes ( British Orator, Author and Prime Minister

"The most dangerous untruths are truths moderately distorted."  ~Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

I think this whole thread can be summed up in a few words.

"why don't Muslims practice what they preach?"

I am catholic I am friends with a few muslims I find them to be very good people, I do believe there is alot of disinfo about all religions. But what it boils down to is how the Leaders of their respected countries 'abuse" their religious interpretations being in power.

To accuse all Muslims of behaving this way is silly but at the same time it silly to deny as a Muslim the atrocities women face in predominant Muslim countries.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Your nickname on these forums, plus your avatar plus your quotes combine to really freak me out. Please don't kill me!


Instead, could you elucidate on what you mean?

Originally posted by pujols5
Hey bomeni, i gave you time and told you to brinng me the verse that i supposedly wouted, you didn't and i left. Prett simple. YOU OR ANYONE HAVE FAILED TO REFUTE MY STATISTICS ON WOMEN IN U.S AND THE QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, WOW TALK ABOUT FIGHTING WITH ONE EYE DOWN. WHAT A LAME EXCUSE FOR YOU.

YOU ARE NOT going to get away with it, you keep trying though I gotta give you an A for effort.

I incorrectly quoted you as saying "women can only be beaten when all other options are tried" ---- I IMMEDIATELY corrected that on page 14 of this thread, explaining it was actually another poster who said that (although I have no doubt you agree with him). I made at least two other posts explaining that I had corrected that, and you just acted like you didn't see them. LOL It gave you the only (false) information that you could use here to try to discredit me, since you could not discredit anything I was saying.

Give it up. Give us something of substance, ok? Give us proof that hundreds of young muslim girls wont be setting themselves on fire this month in order to escape the torment of being a female in a muslim community. Give us proof that hundreds of 12 year old girls won't be giving birth to babies this month (or week most likely), before their small bodies are ready to carry a baby. Give us proof that many of them don't suffer from lifelong intestinal problems because of it. Give us proof that many girls are not "honor killed" in order to protect the pig-men's imagined reputation. That would be a start; afterwards I have another long list for you.

And quit with this childish "Bombeni blamed me for something I didn't say" --- it only makes you like like a desperate fool.

The words of a former muslim woman:

I could not remain a Muslim because Islam hates women. I think I always knew this, but as I got older that knowledge became more acute, Islam wants women to cover themselves, to stay indoors, to obey men, however stupid those men are. Islam says that women are inferior in every way. Islam distorted my father’s feelings. He did not want us, his own daughters, to be happy or fulfilled. He only wanted us to be good Muslims and for daughters this means to be suffering Muslims. What sort of religion forces fathers to make their daughters suffer? What sort of father thinks that his daughter’s hair is shameful? What sort of father tells her she cannot sing and dance when she is happy? A Muslim father.

www.primechoice.com...

Originally posted by Bombeni
Maybe earthdude does not know about female circumcision.

And maybe he thinks those guys order the wives to not leave the house w/o his permission because he er loves her so darn much.

Maybe he thinks they kill muslim girls if they were to hear a rumor that she was talking to a boy on the phone, or was, unthinkably, seen sitting in a car with a boy, but all because they love them so darn much.

\
Obviously you did not get my point. They are not all like that. I know some Muslim girls that have never had any of these things happen to them, DO YOU? You are lumping them all in one bunch. It is like saying all Christians handle snakes in church.

*** ATTENTION ***

THe tone being used towards other members in this thread will stop now.

You will be Post Banned.



Carry on in a civil manner, being courteous to one another, do not discuss each other.

Thank You.

reply to post by earthdude

Quoting female circumcision as a product of Islam is a little silly, especially considering that even Christians and Jews (in Africa) do it AS PART OF THEIR religion.

reply to post by Bombeni

Originally posted by Bombeni
Give it up. Give us something of substance, ok? Give us proof that hundreds of young muslim girls wont be setting themselves on fire this month in order to escape the torment of being a female in a muslim community. Give us proof that hundreds of 12 year old girls won't be giving birth to babies this month (or week most likely), before their small bodies are ready to carry a baby. Give us proof that many of them don't suffer from lifelong intestinal problems because of it. Give us proof that many girls are not "honor killed" in order to protect the pig-men's imagined reputation. That would be a start; afterwards I have another long list for you.

Requiring such a thing is kind of silly, don't you think? Someone could very well ask you "Give us proof that hundreds of christians won't be committing suicide to escape their horrible lives" or "Give us proof that many christians don't suffer lifelong intestinal problems".

Why don't YOU start off with proof that "hundreds of muslim girls will be setting themselves on fire this month in order to escape the torment" (I'd accept statistics on last months burnings if that makes it easier for you ), or proof that hundreds of 12 year old girls will be giving birth to babies this month (or week). And proper statistics, not just one-off stories from some biased anti-islam website.

reply to post by babloyi

In the first seven months of this year, medical staff at the Herat’s burns unit – the only one of its kind in the entire country – said they have seen 51 cases of female self-immolation. Only 13 have survived.

The practice comes from Iran, where many Afghan refugees had fled to during the decade-long war with the Soviet Union (1979-1989) and the era of mujahedeen fighting that followed in the 1990s, said Jalali. But its popularity has spread among Afghan women, often from poor, uneducated backgrounds, where the tradition of child or forced marriages runs strong.

worldblog.msnbc.msn.com...

Do you want more sources? I can find all you ask and more. Just name it.

Well after reading all 16 pages of this thread, it sounds like what is being argued is that the Koran is a good book full of tolerant, equality-promoting ideals but that, in practice, for whatever reason, women are still treated like slaves.

Uh, thanks but no thanks.

If America ever becomes the Caliphate that the U.K. is becoming, I think we'll see a lot of angry American females rising up to take on these misogynist terrorists of females. I know I'll be up front and center.

reply to post by Bombeni

Thank you for clarifying. So from "fifty one girls from afghanistan setting themselves on fire over the course of 7 months" (which I agree is a horribly sad thing), we go to:

"hundreds of muslim girls will be setting themselves on fire in a month".


Are you christian, Bombeni?

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Thank you for clarifying. So from "fifty one girls from afghanistan setting themselves on fire over the course of 7 months" (which I agree is a horribly sad thing), we go to:

"hundreds of muslim girls will be setting themselves on fire in a month".


Are you christian, Bombeni?

Oh geez, ok, I'll help. It's the teacher in me.

Were you unable to ascertain that that was the statistics from ONE locality, ONE burn center --Herat? Er, did you stop to consider that the middle east is a pretty big place? And did you stop to consider that many of the girls who burn themselves up die on the street and NEVER make it to a burn center?

And this dirty scum (hell be upon him) burned an 11 year old before she had the chance to burn herself. She had committed the outrageous act of trying on lipstick!!!

barenakedislam.wordpress.com...





[edit on 15-2-2010 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Bombeni

Oh, I see.

So from the statistics of one burn centre in one city, you make assumptions about the entire muslim population.

You know, I once saw this black man wave about a gun in the subway. Obviously all black men are violent gun-crazies
[/sarcasm]


And then again, you couldn't HELP posting from a biased site again. How interesting. But what has what happened to the girl in that link got to do with Islam?

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Oh, I see.

So from the statistics of one burn centre in one city, you make assumptions about the entire muslim population.

You know, I once saw this black man wave about a gun in the subway. Obviously all black men are violent gun-crazies

[/sarcasm]


And then again, you couldn't HELP posting from a biased site again. How interesting. But what has what happened to the girl in that link got to do with Islam?

LOL, the entire muslim population? Did I say the entire muslim population would burn themselves up? No, I said that many young girls burn themselves up to escape the torture of being born female in a muslim world.


Don't LOOK:
www.scribd.com...

reply to post by Bombeni

Originally posted by Bombeni
LOL, the entire muslim population? Did I say the entire muslim population would burn themselves up? No, I said that many young girls burn themselves up to escape the torture of being born female in a muslim world.

Read my post again. I didn't say that you said the entire muslim population would burn themselves up. I said that you made assumptions about the entire muslim population.

Which you did.

great thread


salam