Status of Women in Islam - Stopping the disinfo

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by pujols5

 

Is there ANYTHING that muslim men are not allowed to do?

You see, this is where the problem of this discussion comes in. You simply do not understand completely the situation.

If a muslim man were to murder his wife he would go to prison if he lived in one of the many fair muslim nations. If he unnecessarily beats his wife he goes to jail and possibly prison. Just like in this country.

The only bad thing is that he can beat his wife without retribution if he can prove there was just cause. I know, you are a woman and you feel that there are no situations where this is justified. I have to admit that I agree. However, because another culture is different from ours does it mean they are wrong and we are right? Are we truly that egotistical?

Back to the question though. I think you already knew the answer was yes, there are many things that a muslim man cannot do to his wife and simply get away with it.

Originally posted by dariousg

Originally posted by smyleegrl

3. Where does the practice of honor killings originate, if not in the Koran?

thanks,

In the Old Testiment. Read it. You will be GREATLY surprised. Also, the Koran is based very much on the Old Testiment as well.

So, what's the point? What does it matter what the OT or Koran says? We are talking about human nature, human decency which in most of us is just an inherent part of our nature. There are many Americans who claim no religion at all, but they don't beat females for letting a little forehead show. They don't bury their daughters alive because they were caught talking on a phone.

Debating the Bible and the Koran are really subjects suited to theologians and the people who practice said religions commonly. We are not debating what the Bible or Koran SAYS to do, we are debating what actually is occuring as we speak.

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by dariousg

 

so, what if your wife thinks you are being disloyal, disobedient, ect...? does the koran give her permission to beat you?

ya know, all things being equal and all!

I'm not muslim. And my wife has had a fit or two where she socked a good one here and there. If I'm disloyal and I have no real justification she can scream and yell all she wants. Just as long as she doesn't try it with a brush.

I can see why the assumption was that I may have been muslim. Because of my answers. Well, it's just that I have taken the time to get to know many people from many different religions. I have studied many different religions in order to garner a better understanding of why certain people do some of the strangest things. Like burning women at the stake (America anyone?) and so on.

I want to be able to make a solid judgement or logical argument based on facts instead of emotion.

[edit on 12-2-2010 by dariousg]

reply to post by Bombeni


*sigh*
I was answering a question! Geez! That's what the big deal was. And no, I was not trying to turn this into and OT versus Koran debate.

I am not trying to argue that it's okay to beat a woman or to reduce them to less than a man. Never in life would I try that.

All I am arguing, and from personal experience as well as speaking with many people of many different religions, is that NOT ALL muslim women are treated the way many here are trying to imply. As a matter of fact, without spending the many hours of research needed by you, I would say (as a matter of opinion) that a solid majority of muslim women are allowed to lead fairly civil lives as you or I would judge them.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Debating the Bible and the Koran are really subjects suited to theologians and the people who practice said religions commonly. We are not debating what the Bible or Koran SAYS to do, we are debating what actually is occuring as we speak.

Where are my credentials in other words? Well, for one I began and nearly completed my bachelor in theology. I started life out as a Christian and spent a couple decades as such. My faith is still in tact but not like what you would probably call faith. I have faith in the message that Jesus gave and I live by that message.

However, I chose to begin studying other religions as well because it just didn't seem smart to base my view of the world from a solely 'Christian' point.

Thus my knowledge and experience with the muslim women that I am trying to point out that have lead very fruitful lives.

Here is a great article to show how Islamic men get to do pretty much whatever they wish with their wives, and justify it by the Koran: Violent Sexual Obsession and Rape as Expression of Islamic Spirituality.

Oops, I think you slipped:

The only bad thing is that he can beat his wife without retribution if he can prove there was just cause.

reply to post by dariousg


Oh my gawd she was actually SEEN with a man.

This has turned into a crazy thread with folks, myself included, arguing about various intrepretations of an ancient text which is by nature subject to intrepretation.

As it relates to the treatment of women in Islamic countries. The issue has everything to do with the integration of the Quran and the nations laws.

In western societies and many others such as Japan and Latin American countries, there is a concept of Common Law. Common Law is law which applied to all citizens and in some cases, non citizens who reside in that country. It is a body of law that supercedes religious doctrine. In an extremely conservative Christian, Muslim, Jewish sect in countries with a system of common law, people can seek redress outside of their religious community through the secular legal system. The secular society trumps the religious culture in every way.

In most Islamic societies, there is not a concept of common law. Law is directly tied to that societies intrepretation of the Quran. These countries are Theocracies. Some of them may have a democratic process in which to elect a leader, but they are electing a leader to act within the theoacracy. The laws which govern their societies are, by definition, based on religious intrepretation. In some cases, those societies are more liberal and the Quran loosely intrepreted. In some cases, like Yemen, the Quran is more literally intrepreted. The treatment of individuals within the society is directly based on how that society intreprets the Quran and implements laws based on that intrepretation.

In countries with a very conservative intrepretation of the Quran and the corresponding laws, women are mistreated by most modern standards. That is a fact. That is something that every day you can find an example of. That is common knowledge and to suggest that it is not true is disengenuous at the least. For certain, in those Islamic countries that are more liberal, women are treated in a far more equitable fashion.

To argue that it is not the teachings of the Quran that is causing women to be mistreated ignores that in a theoacracy, the very laws which govern the treatment of women is solely based on that countries religious intrepretation of the Quran, therefore, in many Islamic countries, buy DEFINITION it is the intrepretation of the Quran that is driving that mistreatment.

You can dance on the head of a pin all you want about what the Quran tells you or does not tell you. The proof lies in how it is intrepretated and put into action in some Muslim countries today.

All that being said, in societies with a liberal intrepretation of the Quran, that which underscores the beauty of the teachings and directs the faith in a productive and constructive way, Islam works for many women. Of that, I have absolutely no doubt.

To argue that women are not being mistreated based on the Quran, however is nonsense. In many cases it is exactly how the Quran is intrepreted which leads to the mistreatment.

Originally posted by dariousg

Originally posted by Bombeni
Debating the Bible and the Koran are really subjects suited to theologians and the people who practice said religions commonly. We are not debating what the Bible or Koran SAYS to do, we are debating what actually is occuring as we speak.

Where are my credentials in other words? Well, for one I began and nearly completed my bachelor in theology. I started life out as a Christian and spent a couple decades as such. My faith is still in tact but not like what you would probably call faith. I have faith in the message that Jesus gave and I live by that message.

However, I chose to begin studying other religions as well because it just didn't seem smart to base my view of the world from a solely 'Christian' point.

Thus my knowledge and experience with the muslim women that I am trying to point out that have lead very fruitful lives.

I may have been unclear. What I meant was there is no point in us debating one religion over another. I am not trying to convert anyone's religious belief and I don't want anyone trying to convert me. I meant that such discussions are best suited among people of the same faith, to try to discern the correct meaning of certain passages etc.

These muslim women you know who lead these very fruitful lives, where do they live? How many, roughly, are you talking about?

Originally posted by Bombeni

Originally posted by dariousg

Originally posted by Bombeni
Debating the Bible and the Koran are really subjects suited to theologians and the people who practice said religions commonly. We are not debating what the Bible or Koran SAYS to do, we are debating what actually is occuring as we speak.

Where are my credentials in other words? Well, for one I began and nearly completed my bachelor in theology. I started life out as a Christian and spent a couple decades as such. My faith is still in tact but not like what you would probably call faith. I have faith in the message that Jesus gave and I live by that message.

However, I chose to begin studying other religions as well because it just didn't seem smart to base my view of the world from a solely 'Christian' point.

Thus my knowledge and experience with the muslim women that I am trying to point out that have lead very fruitful lives.

I may have been unclear. What I meant was there is no point in us debating one religion over another. I am not trying to convert anyone's religious belief and I don't want anyone trying to convert me. I meant that such discussions are best suited among people of the same faith, to try to discern the correct meaning of certain passages etc.

These muslim women you know who lead these very fruitful lives, where do they live? How many, roughly, are you talking about?

Hey man, you are either very ignorant or just too shallow to understand basic elements of life. I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR YOUTUBE VIDEOS ABOUT SOME MEN WHO DONT LIKE ISLAM, THATS JUST A FEW, THE MANY ARE STILL VERY HAPPY.
WHY DONT YOU EXPLAIN THESE STATISTICS.

MURDER
In 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner.1 That's an average of three women every day. Of all the women murdered in the U.S., about one-third were killed by an intimate partner.2

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE (Intimate Partner Violence or Battering)
Domestic violence can be defined as a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is used by one partner to gain or maintain power and control over an intimate partner.3 According to the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, women experience about 4.8 million intimate partner-related physical assaults and rapes every year.4 Less than 20 percent of battered women sought medical treatment following an injury.5

SEXUAL VIOLENCE
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006. That's more than 600 women every day.6 Other estimates, such as those generated by the FBI, are much lower because they rely on data from law enforcement agencies. A significant number of crimes are never even reported for reasons that include the victim's feeling that nothing can/will be done and the personal nature of the incident.7

THE TARGETS
Young women, low-income women and some minorities are disproportionately victims of domestic violence and rape. Women ages 20-24 are at greatest risk of nonfatal domestic violence8, and women age 24 and under suffer from the highest rates of rape.9 The Justice Department estimates that one in five women will experience rape or attempted rape during their college years, and that less than five percent of these rapes will be reported.10 Income is also a factor: the poorer the household, the higher the rate of domestic violence -- with women in the lowest income category experiencing more than six times the rate of nonfatal intimate partner violence as compared to women in the highest income category.11 When we consider race, we see that African-American women face higher rates of domestic violence than white women, and American-Indian women are victimized at a rate more than double that of women of other races.12




WOW LOOK AT THE ATROCITIES DONE BY CHRISTIANS AND AMERICANS, THEY BASICALLY TREAT THEIR WOMEN AS SEX TOYS AND LIKE GARBAGE


[edit on 12-2-2010 by pujols5]

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Originally posted by pujols5

WOW LOOK AT THE ATROCITIES DONE BY CHRISTIANS AND AMERICANS, THEY BASICALLY TREAT THEIR WOMEN AS SEX TOYS AND LIKE GARBAGE

[edit on 12-2-2010 by pujols5]

Two things: We aren't THEIR women. We are our OWN women. Also, if we are treated so badly, then why aren't we seeking asylum in Islamic countries in droves?

reply to post by pujols5


Hey Chick, you didn't have to waste all that bandwidth reposting 2 pages. I accept your stats as fairly accurate. At least the US government thinks that killing or raping people is IMPORTANT enough to keep statistics of it, and we put them in jail. In muslim countries these things are acceptable so it would be hard to give you stats. But let's quit circling the fence my dear Woman. The issue is that in muslim societies it is LEGAL for a man to murder his sister, daughter, wife, etc. Hells bells even the "morality guys" who drive around trying to find a woman showing some forehead can jump out of his vehicle in broad daylight and beat the holy crap out of women that have not properly wrapped the bedsheets and curtains around herself that fateful day before going outside.

Originally posted by novacs4me

Originally posted by pujols5

WOW LOOK AT THE ATROCITIES DONE BY CHRISTIANS AND AMERICANS, THEY BASICALLY TREAT THEIR WOMEN AS SEX TOYS AND LIKE GARBAGE

[edit on 12-2-2010 by pujols5]

Two things: We aren't THEIR women. We are our OWN women. Also, if we are treated so badly, then why aren't we seeking asylum in Islamic countries in droves?

Haha, good catch there nova. What do we have here, a freudian slip?




You are a sharp operator my friend.

puhols5 is SO busted.



[edit on 12-2-2010 by Bombeni]

Originally posted by Bombeni

Originally posted by novacs4me

Originally posted by pujols5

WOW LOOK AT THE ATROCITIES DONE BY CHRISTIANS AND AMERICANS, THEY BASICALLY TREAT THEIR WOMEN AS SEX TOYS AND LIKE GARBAGE

[edit on 12-2-2010 by pujols5]

Two things: We aren't THEIR women. We are our OWN women. Also, if we are treated so badly, then why aren't we seeking asylum in Islamic countries in droves?

Haha, good catch there nova. What do we have here, a freudian slip?

You are a sharp operator my friend.

EDIT to add, that puhols5 character is SO busted. Did you catch the other post, where she said muslim men can only beat their wives when it is justified?

[edit on 12-2-2010 by Bombeni]

Bring me the quote where i said that?

Second bombidiot, the us has more crimes against the women than any muslim country, thats saying something.

reply to post by Bombeni
Thanks, Bombeni! I was thinking that because women are not considered to be their own persons, but belonging to either her family or his, that these guys will never know the joy of a relationship with a woman who truly chooses him, who truly enjoys his company in every way. Sadly, it is their loss. I know my husband appreciates a wife who wants him as much as he wants her!

reply to post by pujols5


I already edited my post, the other proponent of keeping the situation of muslim women status quo said it.

But you are an enigma. What you are is a propagandist to the fullest degree. You definitely have an agenda. How dare you try to impede the effort to discuss the terrible plight of muslim females. How many young muslim women will burn themselves alive today? It is an epidemic, but do you think Islamics keep statistics? Hell no. How many 11 and 12 year old girls are giving birth to the child of some nasty 60 year old pedophile today? Their small bodies aren't ready to carry a child, so many of them have reproductive organ problems for life. Many of them lose the ability to hold their urine and feces and are run out of town to live on the outskirts and eat from trash heaps.

Puhols5, sometimes you just burn me up. (You'd probably like to.)

reply to post by dariousg

People that take offense so easily have to really take a step back and look at themselves closely to make sure they are arguing for arguments sake or simply spouting off from an emotional basis.

Very true, and an excellent point.

However, if you have looked back through the entire thread, you will notice that most of my questions (which have been framed in a very respectful manner) have gone unanswered.

How do you progress in an intelligent discussion when your queries are not responded too?

What I objected to in your post was the (and this may be just my impression, it is really difficult to communicate effectively online since we can't judge body language) snide way you lightly dismissed my question. By stating that I should read the OT, I might be surprised, I concluded (again, rightly or wrongly, it might not have been what you intended at all) that you were assuming I knew nothing about the Bible. That was the reason for my mentioning my bachelor's degree....not braggin. Although if you want to compare degrees, I've got more and we can do that route.

I'm not here to debate theology or comparitive religions. I'm trying to educate myself about the Muslim world. If you want to assist me in that education by offering helpful and respectful arguments, then wonderful! We'll get past the emotion and move on to the finer points. However, if all you want to do is casually dismiss my questions and responses, then I will take the hint.

Originally posted by novacs4me
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Thanks, Bombeni! I was thinking that because women are not considered to be their own persons, but belonging to either her family or his, that these guys will never know the joy of a relationship with a woman who truly chooses him, who truly enjoys his company in every way. Sadly, it is their loss. I know my husband appreciates a wife who wants him as much as he wants her!

So true, I hadn't thought of that, but they are so steeped in tradition they are like robots. That kind of unquestioning obedience to your cultural norms even when they are evil is brought about by use of great fear. Muslim countries have been founded and continued with a rule of fear. You will most probably have your head cut off if you dare mutter a joke about the Islam religion. I guess you can have your head cut off in middle east for just about anything, if you catch the enforcers on a bad day.