What right does the U.S. have to promote their brand of "Freedom"?

Jakomo:

I as a US citizen understand your heartfelt anger. The US is an extremely hypocritical place. Our 'democracy' does not even work in our own country, more or less in anothers' homeland. Justice should not be blind, it should in actuality be hyper-astute and aware. That is not the case here and I do get frustrated.

That said, I think the US is only a representation of a problem that has plagued mankind since it's beginning. This problem is so base and so elemental that to place the blame in the hands of any one group, or nation, or neighborhood, is to miss the jist of the problem.

Why should I be saddened more when an American dies, as opposed to an Iraqi? And Vice-Versa. Should I 'root' for my team, because I was born in the same land? This is sandbox mentality, and I think alot of people in alot of places think along these lines.

I am not 'American'... I am a HUMAN. When this base, idiot-proof logic is practiced across the board, then the real changes begin...

So... You can spend your time arguing with the seekerof's in the world or you can take the advice of the Leonard Cohens' of the world and join THE war. It's a much more noble cause.

Cheers.

Yeah yeah, im human, your human, we're all human...

and knowing other humans as i do...I know that we need a way to do things other than anarchy...one that at least seems fair...otherwise bickering and violence could erupt between us....

after looking at the ways i see people govern themselves, id choose the USA brand every time

A government of the humans, by the humans, for the humans....

attempts to equate the USA and its freedoms to being "less than human"
i find rather twisted and am not suprised at this subtle anti American slap.

Politics is a very human thing to be doing, you see any other species capable of and dealing with elected governance?

As political behaivior is uniquely human, then any part of politics like say labeling ones self "American" is also human. So when i say Im an American its assumed that i would be human....Hmm Human American, there is a new box to check on your diversity forms....

Because i understand that humans can become corrupt....that is why i support the USA promoting their brand of freedom, as when i compare the other options...theirs seems most humane.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Have you lived anywhere else in the world other than the US, so that you can actually make an informed decision?

Nope. You don't have to work at a Jiffy Lube to figure out that other places suck much worse than the US. I don't dig ebola, I don't like starvation, I don't like civil war breaking out every time yet another dictator takes power...the list goes on. I'll stay right here, thank you very much.

HAHAHAH! America's achievements have mostly benefitted the UNITED STATES at the expense of others. Give me an example as to something that the United States created that was a boon to humanity. Your country damages the planet through polllution more than almost all the rest of the countries in the world combined.

Let's see...maybe...ANTIBIOTICS, for one? Maybe...COMPUTERS? Maybe...THE INTERNET? Maybe...THE LIGHT BULB? How about...TV? Most major advances of the last century came from right here-this is undisputable fact. Do your history books not show this in Canada? Or do they say that it's really a Canadian flag on the moon?

Really? I was under the impression that the USA has NO cultural identity. It's all grabbed from TV and Hollywood.
Give me a solid example of "American culture" that has nothing to do with consumerism (something you can buy).

Ah, but that's the beauty of it. TV and Hollywood is the pervasive voice of American culture in all of it's depraved glory. You cannot escape it...if you want to watch a movie, or basically watch pretty much anything on TV, you're sucking up a big fat dose of American culture. Mwuahahahaha... Even that fat bloated sac Michael Moore has infiled the Cannes festival, spreading the very worst of American gutter culture to rave reviews. In case you missed it the first time...Mwuahahaha!

Consumerism? Of course! Love don't make the world go 'round! As long as everybody's making things, and going out and buying the things other people make, everybody has jobs, and everybody has lots of stuff. It's not all that bad, really. Of course, we have to spread this idea around too.

And yet what was the turnout for the last Presidential elections? 24%? Yeah, that's democracy in action.

Again, that's the beauty of it. We also don't HAVE to vote, as in Saddam's last landslide "election". Plus, this gives all the non-voters no right to whine no matter what the outcome. Vote or no, the choice is there by right. As Nietzsche said, it makes no difference whether you're told to vote for one party or given the choice of 3--the outcome is still the same.

So...who's running for Queen next election up there?

America needs to fix it's own glaring problems before it goes around dropping BOMBS on people in the name of Freedom, because it's a total crock of shyte. America is broken.

Naah. We've got our issues, but we're getting along just fine, thanks for the concern! Now, go on down to McDonald's, have a Big Mac and a Coke, and be happy for all the good things America has brought you.

Originally posted by Q

Originally posted by Jakomo
Have you lived anywhere else in the world other than the US, so that you can actually make an informed decision?

Nope. You don't have to work at a Jiffy Lube to figure out that other places suck much worse than the US. I don't dig ebola, I don't like starvation, I don't like civil war breaking out every time yet another dictator takes power...the list goes on. I'll stay right here, thank you very much.

Thank you. I can hold this out as the most ignorant thing I have heard expressed at ATS. I know the author wouldn't mean this seriously and it is an extreme caricature on national jingoism, but it is just so beautiful in its complete ignorance!

The right that the US has to promote its particular brand of freedom is the right that accrues to anyone that believes that "might makes right". That is, no right at all.

Progressive outcomes from that vein of thinking are long ago dead, and remnant behaviour from that thinking is in its death throes.

Let's see...maybe...ANTIBIOTICS, for one? Maybe...COMPUTERS? Maybe...THE INTERNET? Maybe...THE LIGHT BULB? How about...TV? Most major advances of the last century came from right here-this is undisputable fact. Do your history books not show this in Canada? Or do they say that it's really a Canadian flag on the moon?

Antibiotics? Penecillin, the first antibiotic ever used to treat disease, was discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming. He wasn't American, HE WAS SCOTTISH.

Television? Invented by John Logie Baird. He wasn't American either. He was also Scottish.

Among other things, we Scots also invented the telephone, radar, pneumatic tires and most importantly, Scotch whisky.

So don't assume everything wonderful comes from America. No doubt many good things have been invented by Americans, but check your facts before you make assertions, like claiming great inventions for your own country. And if you wanted to sway us in favour of the US, the last thing you should have done is mention McDonald's - cultural imperialism at its worst, and piss poor food too.

Joseph Knecht: That is FAR AND AWAY one of the best posts I've seen on this site.

That said, I think the US is only a representation of a problem that has plagued mankind since it's beginning. This problem is so base and so elemental that to place the blame in the hands of any one group, or nation, or neighborhood, is to miss the jist of the problem.

Hear hear! I totally agree. The main problem I have is that even though the US is only a representation of that problem, they aggressively promote it and ignore any dissenters (or muzzle them).

No country has the right to invade another country without worldwide approval, or at LEAST a majority. Killing people by dropping bombs on them doesn't promote freedom, it promotes hatred and fear. And nation-building should have gone out with the colonial times way back when.

Caz:

after looking at the ways i see people govern themselves, id choose the USA brand every time

Do you have an example of another country's governance? What's wrong with Switzerlands' form of government? What about the UK? France? Belgium? Give me an example of a country that you've lived in that gives you the ability to make an accurate comparison, unless you're a Poli Sci major, then let me know what you base your assertion on.

Because you've basically just said that the US has the world's best form of government, which makes me laugh so hard my stomach hurts.

Q:

You don't have to work at a Jiffy Lube to figure out that other places suck much worse than the US. I don't dig ebola, I don't like starvation, I don't like civil war breaking out every time yet another dictator takes power...the list goes on. I'll stay right here, thank you very much.

Ok so in other words you have NO basis of comparison and are pretty much making wild allegations.

Why don't you compare your country with a NON-African, NON-Third World, NON-dictatorship? Or does that frighten you?

Let's see...maybe...ANTIBIOTICS, for one? Maybe...COMPUTERS? Maybe...THE INTERNET? Maybe...THE LIGHT BULB? How about...TV? Most major advances of the last century came from right here-this is undisputable fact. Do your history books not show this in Canada? Or do they say that it's really a Canadian flag on the moon?

Good one. The USA invented ALL anti-biotics? What about penicillin, the MAIN one, which was invented by Ambrose Fleming, a BRIT. As for computers, the first one was in 1941, and it was a GERMAN invention (called the Z3, created by Konrad Zuse). The INTERNET? Well either DARPA or Al Gore (haha), but I wouldn't say the Internet is really so groundbreaking (since unless you have a computer and a line, you're outta luck).

Read something before you blather on about inaccuracies.

Consumerism? Of course! Love don't make the world go 'round! As long as everybody's making things, and going out and buying the things other people make, everybody has jobs, and everybody has lots of stuff. It's not all that bad, really. Of course, we have to spread this idea around too.

Wrong. Capitalism works for YOU, but does it work for the workers in Taiwan who are 7 years old working 18 hour days for 40 cents a day so that you can get cheap Nikes? Unless you don't care about anybody else, capitalism doesn't always work, but nice try.

So...who's running for Queen next election up there?

Haha, I totally believe that you think Canada has a Queen. And that Queens are voted in. Haha.

We impose capitalism with tones of democracy; freedom is a happy by-product if it occurs. If not, well, the capitalism part is all we were really concerned about anyway.
I happen to live, primarily, in upstate NY. Prisons are a very large industry up here: you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone that has some working responsibility to the prison system.
The reason our jails are overcrowded & that we hold such horrid ratios, is quite simple & twofold: it's a multi-billion dollar industry that is excellent political fodder. Given the outsourcing of so much of the functional running on a prison community over the last 3 years, the money being made will gurantee more incarcerations.
Who can name a political race without the ubiquitous law & order Candidate? It's a physcological archtype: he/she who decrys our "moral decay" & touts the "saftey" that their authoritarian methods would bring. If it's not the major platform point, it's definetly in there somewhere.
Recreational Drugs, Weed specifically, are custom made for inflated numbers that keep low level power lords bathed in federal funds. That the well organized & dangerous drugs, with the cartels that run them, are left unscathed, is easily covered up by this "crop size" drug busts that give the appearence that something is getting done.

CazMedia:

Being pro-human equates to anti-american? Actually... most of the time I'm unequivocally pro-canine. Nonetheless, the US has just as much responsibility as anyone else to uphold certain rights, and not slam its idealogy down the throats of others. You feel we are above reproach in this manner, and have no place to be criticized?

Jakomo:
I believe this country is split about fifty/fifty in an idealogical struggle. While the actions of the government do/did have a large percentage of public support, there is a huge contigency in this country that finds the government and its actions deplorable. It is a country run by elitists and the spread of capitalism serves their interests... not the commoner. Its the same old song and dance that has taken place everywhere, granted the magnitude is a a lot greater.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

Let's see...maybe...ANTIBIOTICS, for one? Maybe...COMPUTERS? Maybe...THE INTERNET? Maybe...THE LIGHT BULB? How about...TV? Most major advances of the last century came from right here-this is undisputable fact. Do your history books not show this in Canada? Or do they say that it's really a Canadian flag on the moon?

Among other things, we Scots also invented the telephone, radar, pneumatic tires and most importantly, Scotch whisky.

Heh. The only thing that actually was invented in the US on his list is the light bulb. All of the others were invented in the UK - as were/are most inventions to this day.

Gotta love those "undisputable facts".

Here we have the country with by far the most of its' own citizens in JAIL. 1 out of every 75 males in the United States is currently INCARCERATED.

Most of its' own Citizens? Rephrase that first sentence to make a better argument. "...most of its' own citizens in JAIL." After reading the article, I have to conclude that 74 out of 75 men are free. That isn't "most" of the citizens in jail. Now having the most "INCARCERATED" men in jail is completely understandable.

Is it that Americans are just the most violently criminal people in the world? Or is it that they have one of the most draconian and unfair legal
systems in the world?

Are you trying to imply that all American people are violent? That is a very broad statement. I would have to agree that some of us are violent, but woudn't agree that all of us are criminally violent. Canadians must be violent too, because you just attacked the US people with your statement.

I don't see what is so "harsh" about our legal system? You get a trial by your "peers," you are innocent until proven guilty and the state will even provde an attorney for you if you can't afford one. Sure, mistakes are made and some innocent people go to jail, but look around the world and you will see the same thing happening everywhere else.

And yet, they want the rest of the world to believe that they are the Greatest Country in the World.

What? We aren't? Ha. I hope you understand I am being facetious.

I know 1 out 75 American males who would strongly disagree.

I don't see that many leaving the States when they are let free.

I guess the rest of the world doesn't punish people the way the United States does. I honestly don't know World law well (except for UK, I lived there), but maybe people are getting away with more stuff then they should be.

Have a nice day.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by WarBUCKs]

Heh. The only thing that actually was invented in the US on his list is the light bulb. All of the others were invented in the UK - as were/are most inventions to this day.

Gotta love those "undisputable facts".

I could of sworn that DARPA in the US along with Vint Cerf from Stanford invented TCP/IP in 1973 and coined the phrase, "Internet" in 1974. Mr. Cerf has often been called "The Father of the Internet" and grew up in Los Angeles, CA.

The Internet was definately a product of the cold war.

Sorry, I am off subject and will stop.

Originally posted by WarBUCKs
I could of sworn that DARPA in the US along with Vint Cerf from Stanford invented TCP/IP in 1973 and coined the phrase, "Internet" in 1974. Mr. Cerf has often been called "The Father of the Internet" and grew up in Los Angeles, CA.

The Internet was definately a product of the cold war.

Sorry, I am off subject and will stop.

Nit: ARPA started in 1969. digital.com, my beloved former employer, was one of the very first .com domains.

most importantly, Scotch whisky

Amen!

Well, I'm glad I gave everyone a good laugh, at any rate!

I'm willing to give on the TV assertion. Mr. Baird did indeed pioneer a lot of the early advancements in television. Credit goes to him for the first television studio. However, his idea of television was some sort of Frankensteinish mechanical monstrosity. The first electronic TV was patented by an American named Philo Farnsworth, who invented what he called a "dissector tube", which is the main constituent of all modern tube televisions (in evolved form, of course). Go look in your living room, it's right there. But, as I said, this one can get a bit muddy due to the numerous other people and nationalities involved. We didn't invent TV an sich, but we did develop it (yes, with help from others!) into what we all know and love today.

Antibiotics? Ok, I'll give allowance on that as well. If you want to get technical, penicillin was discovered by some Frenchman in the 1800's. Too bad he didn't do anything with it. Sure enough, Dr. Fleming did indeed rediscover it. But where did he go to actually make it into a usable medicine and engineer it's mass production? That's right, he took his samples to America, where it got straightened out and done right.

Computers? Sorry, the Z1 counts as a computer scarcely more than an abacus would. Three letters for ya--IBM!

Sure enough, lots of other great things were started right here. Discovery of electricity? Got it. Central Air? Got it. First oil well? Got it. Telephones? Yup, that too.

Interesting to note that so many American inventions weren't made by "native" (by this, I mean American-born) Americans. Many were made by people that left somewhere that sucked to come here, where the inherent coolness of this country motivated them to new achievements.

By no means do I claim that America invented all things useful and nice to have, that would be absurd. There will always be fine German automobiles (and chocolate!), Swiss watches, Japanese electronics,Canadian beer, and Scottish..er..scotch! The list goes on--good things come from all over. The point I was trying to make (which was taken far too seriously, even personally, I might add!) was that the modern, civilized world--nay, humanity!-- wouldn't be nearly as advanced as it is today were it not for American contributions.

This is, after all, the topic of this thread. What right do we have to promote our "brand of freedom"? I'll freely admit that there's a lot of screwed up things here, but I still haven't seen anyone offering a better ideal to strive for.

This dose of sanity has been brought to you by the letter "Q". You may now resume your flagrant Anti-Americanism and picking apart of any posts that don't agree with your socialistic mindset.

"Let's see...maybe...ANTIBIOTICS, for one? Maybe...COMPUTERS? Maybe...THE INTERNET? Maybe...THE LIGHT BULB? How about...TV? Most major advances of the last century came from right here-this is undisputable fact. Do your history books not show this in Canada? Or do they say that it's really a Canadian flag on the moon? "

I think I'll add my two cents to the chorus of " YOU WHAT ? You muppet ?!?"

I had to read that through twice before I realised you were serious.
The US has produced a lot of great stuff but please try and credit it with things its actually responsible for.

Inventions don't sponteniously erupt in their current modern form, They are developed all over the world. Its hard to pin point where an invention originated, Is the inventor of the bycycle ultimately responsible for the invention of the space shuttle ?

However.

Antibiotics were a French creation ( Louis Pasteur ) But are widely accredited to the English ( Alexander Fleming ) Computers were invented by the British ( Charles Babbage ) and the Television is a bit of a toss collaboration between Baird ( UK ) and C.F. Jenkins ( US ) Depending on what you actually class as a "television"

Humphrey Davey ( UK ) is widely accepted to have made the first "electric light bulb" closely followed by some French Bloke I can't remember.

Joseph Swan ( UK ) and Edison ( US ) came up with what we consider to be the modern light bulb ( long after its actual invention ) at roughly the same time.

However I grant you that Edison's was the first to be commercially successful, demonstrating one of the worlds great ironies. The US didn't invent any of these things, it did however invent a way to make money out of them.

WarBucks:

Most of its' own Citizens? Rephrase that first sentence to make a better argument. "...most of its' own citizens in JAIL." After reading the article, I have to conclude that 74 out of 75 men are free. That isn't "most" of the citizens in jail. Now having the most "INCARCERATED" men in jail is completely understandable.

As in "the US has more of it's own citizens in jail than any other country in the world".

Canadians must be violent too, because you just attacked the US people with your statement.

It was a question meant to get some people answering.

I guess the rest of the world doesn't punish people the way the United States does. I honestly don't know World law well (except for UK, I lived there), but maybe people are getting away with more stuff then they should be.

That whole paragraph can be boiled down to "I honestly don't know World law". Thanks.

Q:

Interesting to note that so many American inventions weren't made by "native" (by this, I mean American-born) Americans. Many were made by people that left somewhere that sucked to come here, where the inherent coolness of this country motivated them to new achievements.

Haha, that one killed me.

So it's not necessarily that an AMERICAN might have invented something, it's that living in AMERICA caused them to invent it, just because America is so "cool". That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

The point I was trying to make (which was taken far too seriously, even personally, I might add!) was that the modern, civilized world--nay, humanity!-- wouldn't be nearly as advanced as it is today were it not for American contributions.

And you failed miserably in trying to prove that point, because it's not true. But it's not your fault. I wouldn't say present-day America really motivates anyone to really do any forward thinking at all for the most part. Go buy a Big Mac and watch some TV.

Freedom implies, you know, the FREEDOM to make choices for your own life. 1 in 75 people in jail is NOT freedom, in fact, it implies a very very repressive government. Am I wrong here in that assumption?


You answered your own question. These people were free to make their own choices. They made bad ones. You do the crime, you pay the time. It's very simple. If these people don't like the rules this country is run by, they can work to change them, or leave and go to YOUR country. Would you accept them up there in Canada as refugees from this *sarcasim* oppressive country down here that we call America?

[Edited on 6/3/2004 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Jakomo

No country has the right to invade another country without worldwide approval, or at LEAST a majority.

America has every right to defend herself. If that means invading Iraq we will. If that means invading Canada we will. We will find the terrorists and the sponsors of terror where ever they are and we will crush them. It is our right to defend America.

Worldwide approval? Sure. The world will never be in full agreement on anything. Each country is too selfish. France was too selfish to want to liberate Iraq. It was too interested in it's illegal contracts with Iraq and the loss of $$ to it's own country to be concerned about the millions being murdered, maimed, and raped.

I think our CONSTITUTION give's us the right to promote OUR brand of Freedom. Granted, things are not always done right here in this country (just as others, Canada included) and there are MANY who would like to and are trying to "tear us down". But we will stand firm and keep fighting to KEEP our freedom! We may not agree with the way wars are faught and handled but as soon as we allow other countries to tell us how to do what we do then we start to lose our sovereignty, which we are TODAY fighting to keep.

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by Cocco]

FlyersFan:

America has every right to defend herself. If that means invading Iraq we will. If that means invading Canada we will. We will find the terrorists and the sponsors of terror where ever they are and we will crush them. It is our right to defend America.

How very dramatic. How did Iraq pose a threat to the US when the longest range missile it had was 300 miles? How did they pose a threat to America with NO AIR FORCE? How did they pose a threat to America when it took about 5 days for the US military to take over the whole country?

Take what you said and translate it into German and substitute "America" for "the Third Reich" and you'll see what you are.

Worldwide approval? Sure. The world will never be in full agreement on anything. Each country is too selfish. France was too selfish to want to liberate Iraq. It was too interested in it's illegal contracts with Iraq and the loss of $$ to it's own country to be concerned about the millions being murdered, maimed, and raped.

However, the world is pretty united in its condemnation of the US policy in Iraq.

You and I are living in a different world. Yours is black and white and so simple a 4 year old could understand it, but it's not reality.

Thanks for trying though.

Cocco:

We may not agree with the way wars are faught and handled but as soon as we allow other countries to tell us how to do what we do then we start to lose our sovereignty, which we are TODAY fighting to keep.

Too bad the rest of us have to share the planet with you arrogant, self-important dicks, then.

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by Jakomo]