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What right does the U.S. have to promote their brand of "Freedom"?

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posted on May, 28 2004 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
All you do, as you always have, is continue to point out what is not right with the US.....interesting and tiresome really, and NOT even a citizen of this country and yet you feel you have the right to judge? Enlighten me Jako. I'll ask again, do you live in the US? Uhhh, opps, I forgot, you live in Canoooda. Ahhh, I see. Shall we go into topics of how Canoooda is about as screwed up as you make the US seem to be?
You make no sense at all. A clueless Inspector Clueso? I dunno, but I am seriously wondering.



Casual observation: Seekerof is once again on the slippery downward path of nationalistic nonsense and petty insult of his northern neighbour. These two have been dancing in step for months but one of them has two left feet.

Because of the position in which the US casts itself, and particularly under the current corrupt administration, it is necessary to judge the US - especially judgment from an external standpoint. American citizens should get used to it, no matter where they live. "Judge" is an interesting word, and it does not suggest that one should condone self-appointed judge-jury-executioners. That is another matter altogether.




posted on May, 28 2004 @ 09:24 PM
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It is also necessary for the US to judge other countries and organizations.
Particularly the UN, and Terrorist groups. Not that they usually belong in the same sentence.

But in this case, they both seek to undermine the US, by different means.

One by trying to set US policy, the other by slaughter.

Who needs either?



posted on May, 28 2004 @ 09:38 PM
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they want the rest of the world to believe that they are the Greatest Country in the World.

Yeah right!!!!!!! Ahahahahahahahahahaaaa...lol. Euroean countries would be the ones to have the highest form of life or whatever...



posted on May, 28 2004 @ 09:46 PM
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Sorry, but you know what? I'm not what one would call a governmental bitchboy, but I have still managed to stay out of prison.
One out of 75 males are in the pen? That doesn't necessarily sound like a governmental problem, but a societal one.



posted on May, 29 2004 @ 07:52 AM
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Seekerof:

Seems to me that 1 in 75 is not bad at all, when compared to 2002 when there was 1 out of 143?!


That's almost double in one year according to your numbers. "Not bad at all"?


Where were you in 2002, Jako? Was your voice and opinions being heard concerning your steady condemnation of the US then? Strictly the US, eh Jako? No mention of China? No mention of Russia, no nothing but an article from where......commondreams.org? WTF? With the amount of credible information on the subject and al you can quote from is commondreams?


First off, WTF yourself. Russia is specifically mentioned not only at the link, but in the quotes I provided. So is China if you read the article.

As to the source, I even included the byline Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by the Associated Press in the quotes. It's an Associated Press story that CommonDreams is providing a link to.... I mean come on, I question people's sources when there's no byline I am not going to do that myself.


Yeah, we lead the world, so what!


Bravo!


You then throw in your ever used banter of:
quote:
And yet, they want the rest of the world to believe that they are the Greatest Country in the World.

Huh?
What a joke.
Its apparent that you have no clue on what determines that specific category of "Greatest Country in the World", do you?
Have you bothered to also investigate what makes the US the supposed "Greatest Country in the World"? Have you listed those things that fall into that subcribed category? No!
All you do, as you always have, is continue to point out what is not right with the US.....interesting and tiresome really, and NOT even a citizen of this country and yet you feel you have the right to judge? Enlighten me Jako.


Sure I'll enlighten you. What gives me the right to judge? Free will, free country, free forum, free exchange of ideas. Pick one. Since you're American, YOU tell ME why your country is the best in the world, not just for you but for your fellow citizens.


I'll ask again, do you live in the US? Uhhh, opps, I forgot, you live in Canoooda. Ahhh, I see. Shall we go into topics of how Canoooda is about as screwed up as you make the US seem to be?
You make no sense at all. A clueless Inspector Clueso? I dunno, but I am seriously wondering.


Wow, so am I. I think if you searched through ALL my posts here over the last year or 18 months you'll see that not once did I disagree with something that the United States government did without at least something to back it up. Not just silly name-calling and insulting. Because it's stupid for me to insult Americans by making fun of their country's name.

I'll make fun of your President all day long (it's easy), and question your policies but let's be honest, most Americans are good people just trying to make a living and make their children's lives better than theirs were.

And whatever, you live in VIRGINIA? The cultural hotspot of the entire Western Hemisphere? The Holy Mecca of the Americas? Haha.

spacedout:

I forgot to ask in my last post.

What is your preferred brand of "Freedom" ?


I don't now, a society that's a little more permissive maybe. The War on Drugs is a huge example (believe it or not there are countries that don't lock up drug addicts for years at a time, they treat them, and their society isn't crumbling). Gun ownership is another. Prudishness is another (still a lot of Puritanism). I don't know, there's not one single country I could point to in the world that has the perfect society, if I could, I'd live there


Thomas Crowne:

One out of 75 males are in the pen? That doesn't necessarily sound like a governmental problem, but a societal one.


I'd agree, maybe it's more of a social issue than one of government policy, but by the same token, it's the state and federal governments that throw people in jail. A lot of people get sued and go through civil court because of the HUGE throbbing mass of lawyers, but the ones in prison are put there by the Man.


Q

posted on May, 30 2004 @ 01:11 AM
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Yeah! How dare we try and spread our brand of freedom around the world. Why should people have the right to vote? Why should all humanity have a chance at a higher standard of living? Why should people have a chance to succeed based upon their own abilities rather than their pedigree? And can anyone tell me what is up with this nonsense of men and women being equal?

Everybody bitched about being integrated into the Roman empire...until they realized that they were better off for it.

Why is America's prison population so high? The war on drugs is the real culprit. A stupid campaign began by self-righteous do-gooders to try and keep people from doing something they didn't approve of. I'm not saying that doing drugs is in any way good or right--in fact, many of them reduce people to worthless wastes of humanity. But our drug laws are extremely disproportional to the level of problem that they represent. Personally, I'd favor decriminalizing most drugs, which would free up vast resources for pursuit of actual criminals. Anyone who's been robbed, or had virtually anything stolen can attest to the fact that there is no real concern for catching thieves and robbers--but by golly, if law enforcement even thinks there's anything drug-related going on in your area, there's going to be an entire freaking team of people surveilling you to try and catch something happening. Again, highly disproportional! I don't feel that the focus is actually on crime so much as drugs. If some crackhead steals your car, then they need to be prosecuted for stealing the car, not for being a crackhead. Hold the person responsible for their actions, rather than the drug.

If these changes were made, the criminal justice system would work much more efficiently. Not being jammed up with thousands of people who got 'caught with a joint in their pocket' would clear up dockets for work on actual crime. In this respect, the system works well. Take the people who are doing bad things, and keep them away from society. That's really a no-brainer. Trial is given to provide the chance for innocence to be proven as well as any human system can provide--it's not like people are accused of things and locked away forever without any proof. It's when you parole the murderer to free up a cell for the guy who got 'caught with a few pills' that things go horribly wrong.

America isn't perfect, there are lots of screwed up things just like this over here. Still, I'll take what we've got going on over anywhere else in the world. America's achievements have unquestionably taken all of humanity to a higher level, as well as spurred on the achievements, capabilitites, and potential of other countries as well. Like it or not, America does represent the forefront of human civilization, largely due to it's being comprised of people from everywhere worldwide. The world seems to hate America, but America is the world, in a sense. Humanity seems to have some sort of self-defeating personality complex on a greater sociological level.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by Jakomo
Here we have the country with by far the most of its' own citizens in JAIL. 1 out of every 75 males in the United States is currently INCARCERATED.



Jokomo don't confuse America's effective prison system with other nations.

First, Jail is for less than one year sentences, because it is less than a year and because it is regaurded as fairly "minimal" it is a frequent sentence.

So while 1/75 are behind bars, it's rarely the same people, the prison population is small but the incarcerated population is increased by the numbers of those who are in jail for a week.

Some people go to jail for a few days as punishment. If you have 1,000 people getting that punishment every day, then you have several thousand people behind bars at any given time.

Now, by "effective" I mean we arrest our criminals.

You see, in many nations like Russia, most criminals run free, Mexico all you need is a hundred bucks to get away pretty much with murder even. "Drop me off at the US Border officer."

So just because we have more behind bars does not mean that we have more crime.

Also finally, a lot of people behind bars are innocent people awaiting trial who can not or won't bother to pay bail.

All these factors are not added in your crappy statistic.

The final factor is "what constitutes a crime."

In Saudi Arabia, if a man offended my family, I can kill him. If a daughter disobeys me I can kill her.

In America those are crimes and thus inhance our incarcerated population.

I seriously hope no one has devoted much time to this very fallacious argument.

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by Banshee]



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 10:33 AM
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"What right does the U.S. have to promote their brand of "Freedom"?"

We have a Moral Imperative to extol the virtues of the Democratic ideal. We have a Moral Imperative to lead by example. We cross the line into immoral/illeagal when we try to IMPOSE democratic ideals.

The Moral High Ground is a tenuous position at best. Your prison population example is a good example of how the U.S. has work to do on it's own front. I would argue that we have nothing to say to Countries which we think fall short in their treatment of thier cititzenry, when we can be less-than exemplary with our own cititzens.

I have to agree with some of the members who state that we most likely treat our prisoners better here than they would be treated elsewhere, and that statistics may be missleading. Also the infantile War on Drugs has proved to be a disaster. These points in and of themselves do not remove us from a presupposed exhaulted position. Our hippocracy does that, our aggressive posture and policy does that.

There remains a vast chasam of difference between the "Nurturing parent" model of leadership and the "Strict Parent" model currently employed. Perhaps a little of both are needed in differing circumstances.


[Edited on 30-5-2004 by scottsquared]



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:22 AM
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Hmm, Jackomo
Ever think that the people responsible for being in jail committed crimes to get themselves there?

While i can say that some laws might need adjusting, (drug law penalties for example)...the number of people incarcerated does in NO WAY dimminish the USA or any nation from promoting higher ideals such as democracy, liberty, and the pursuit of happieness....

The abillity to stand against genocide, stand up and give aid when disaster strikes, provide for a common defense (nato) has nothing to do with arresting and convicting criminals in your own nation....



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:45 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
...and NOT even a citizen of this country and yet you feel you have the right to judge? Enlighten me Jako. I'll ask again, do you live in the US? Uhhh, opps, I forgot, you live in Canoooda. Ahhh, I see. Shall we go into topics of how Canoooda is about as screwed up as you make the US seem to be?


Well people like you seem to have blind faith in the corrupt, warmongering administration running your country. Sadly there are many, many more like you who in the name of patriotism do not question Bush.

The partiotic thing to do would be to let the politicians, who work for you, and whose salleries the taxpayers pay, know when they are wrong. That way you can make your country a better place to live, by changing the undesirable aspects of government. Ultimately the voters are in charge of government, not the other way around.

Since a frightening number of Americans are incapable of questioning their government, it is up to us foreigners to do so. Governments must be questioned, especially if they are as powerful as that of the US. Politics in your country affect the rest of the world, so it is our right to comment on them.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:50 AM
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Uh. Dunno if you've noticed but he's pointing at a domestic policy.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:59 AM
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I think we have every right to PROMOTE our brand of freedom, we just don't have any right to decide that it is what somebody else wants or needs. No right to IMPOSE our brand of freedom. Do I believe the world would be a better place if all countries practiced democracy? Yes. But it would probably also be a better place if it were completely socialistic. In fact, it would be a better place if it was all something, pick one, as long as it is not a fanatical theocracy.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 09:55 AM
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Yes, the prison system in the US has become big business - no doubt. Looks like we sent some of those policies to Iraq too. I wonder when we get to start hearing the storiies about the scumbags working in the prison systems abusing inmates here. From the stories I've heard most of those working in the prisons are as bad as the the criminals they're watching. It's just one of the things the US media wont touch here though.

I think most of us here agree that the war on drugs is the biggest culprit, too bad we can't agree to do something about it. Locking people up is just to much of a revenue source for many communities. While we are enjoying lower rates of violent crime, most of those in prison are no violent offenders.

Much of the US is becoming a police state. Here in Seattle they are money grubbing for anything & everything. Park too long they ticket you, park on the line they tow you, tint you windows = ticket, don't wear a seat belt = ticket, no helmet = ticket, cross between crosswalks = ticket, star watching at the park after 11 = ticket. Yep, in Seattle we can't even use the parks at night anymore. Instead of targeting those who break the laws in the parks at night, the weasles close em and call all of us criminals for being there. Seattle shoots themselves in the foot by driving out business's & their customers and then they wonder why they have less tax revenue to work with - so they raise ticket rates further and go deeper.

The US is a great place to live, but it's going downhill fast and it's definately not the best place in the world to live, but it's much more affordable then many of the better places. I don't believe we have any right to police the rest of the world unless they become a threat to us. No - I don't believe that was the case in Iraq either.

The Patriot Act should be named the Gestapo Act and those who support it should be labeled NWO Nazi's. From now on I think we should all refer to the Patriot Act as the Gestapo Act.


[Edited on 31-5-2004 by outsider]



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by Leveller
Uh. Dunno if you've noticed but he's pointing at a domestic policy.


Don't know if you've noticed, but most of the "patriotic" Americans on this board have taken this stance on international issues, namely the war in Iraq, and it's starting to get to me. They don't like us criticising US foreign policy because apparently it's none of our business. That's the point I was making.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 11:16 AM
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Q:

Still, I'll take what we've got going on over anywhere else in the world.


Have you lived anywhere else in the world other than the US, so that you can actually make an informed decision?


America's achievements have unquestionably taken all of humanity to a higher level, as well as spurred on the achievements, capabilitites, and potential of other countries as well.


HAHAHAH! America's achievements have mostly benefitted the UNITED STATES at the expense of others. Give me an example as to something that the United States created that was a boon to humanity. Your country damages the planet through polllution more than almost all the rest of the countries in the world combined.



Like it or not, America does represent the forefront of human civilization, largely due to it's being comprised of people from everywhere worldwide.


Really? I was under the impression that the USA has NO cultural identity. It's all grabbed from TV and Hollywood.


Give me a solid example of "American culture" that has nothing to do with consumerism (something you can buy).



Yeah! How dare we try and spread our brand of freedom around the world. Why should people have the right to vote?


And yet what was the turnout for the last Presidential elections? 24%? Yeah, that's democracy in action.


America needs to fix it's own glaring problems before it goes around dropping BOMBS on people in the name of Freedom, because it's a total crock of shyte. America is broken.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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Hmmm,
seems like Jak's original question about our right to promote our brand of freedom has morphed into an attack our our culture, world contributions, and so forth. True colors are shining through, here....

Whatever, dude......(waves hand dismissively). As usual, your U.S. bashing has grown tiresome and boring. We know what our own problems are, and we also know what our own accomplishments are. We hardly need the likes of you to take the moral high ground and poo-poo the way we conduct our business. BTW, I'm just glad I don't live in a social welfare state where the government takes half my salary right off the top and my unit of currency is worth half of my next door neighbor's.......

As far as promoting our brand of freedom, well, like most other things in this world, we are only selling what people are willing to buy. You show me somebody who is not in the market for some freedom, basic human rights, and economic opportunity....and I'll show you a slave.






posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 12:55 PM
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Pyros:

seems like Jak's original question about our right to promote our brand of freedom has morphed into an attack our our culture, world contributions, and so forth. True colors are shining through, here....


Yeah, strangely enough nobody actually EVER comes up with any specifics as to why the USA is the greatest country in the world, they just slam me for mentioning it's many failings. Color me surprised.


We know what our own problems are, and we also know what our own accomplishments are.


No you don't, or you do and you can't admit it.


BTW, I'm just glad I don't live in a social welfare state where the government takes half my salary right off the top and my unit of currency is worth half of my next door neighbor's.......


Ok.


As far as promoting our brand of freedom, well, like most other things in this world, we are only selling what people are willing to buy.


Really? Did Vietnam start because the Vietnamese were demanding freedom? Korea? Iraq?

I hear there are a lot of Tibetans demanding these things, what's the deal?



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 01:14 PM
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With more freedom comes more responsibility. Alot of people in the U.S can't handle the responsibility and thus turn to drugs and crime and then prison. TC is right, it is a societal problem not a governmental one.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 02:57 PM
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Jackomo,
They can't answer your questions because they HAVE NO ANSWERS. I agree with your position, The U.S. should be working on it's own social issues before worrying about policing the Planet.

The Iraq war is nothing but an Oil grab and a distraction from the real issues.

WAKE-UP PEOPLE!!! We have maybe 20 years before the oil supply starts to get VERY tight. Since we have done little or nothing in the way of conservation/efficiancy/alternate energy, Our end is closer than you think.


See you in B.C. Jacko! I hear a ski pass is about 1/2 the cost at Whistler compared to the extortionist prices in Colorado.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 09:47 PM
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Here is a piece of information that i find quite interesting.

65 percent of the people currently doing time in this country are there for nonviolent offenses, mostly drug-involved offenses. And I think we need to look at whether this has worked. What it's done is in 14 states people lose the vote for life if they have a felony conviction. And we're seeing more and more, particularly black Americans, arrested, incarcerated, and leaving incarceration with a felony conviction that cripples them for the rest of their lives. What we're also seeing is that it's not working to bring down drugs. If you look at heroin, the price has gone down, the quality gone up, the average age of the user has gone down. We're losing this war and we're destroying a generation in doing it. The people who are getting hurt most by violence, by homicide rates are also the ones being hurt most by the war on drugs because they're the ones who end up in prison. They're the ones whose children end up with a higher chance of being locked up because that's what happens to the children of people doing time. We're doing a devastating job of people in the inner cities and people of color. And we're incarcerating at a rate unprecedented in our history. For almost 100 years -- just about until the time of the Violence Commission -- we incarcerated about 100 people out of every 100,000. We're at six or seven times that right now. It's devastating. In California it costs $1.5 million to lock up a single person under three strikes. More people are doing life, natural life, for marijuana possession in California than they are for murder, rape and robbery combined.

LIFE in jail for weed is just sad


u can find this and more at www.pbs.org...



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