Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Mythtified

 

My opinion is that there is a small, but ever so hard border to cross between intelligence and humanity. You can be smarter than man, but not worthy of life. Because unless you can imagine and innovate, you're an animal. And by innovation, I mean they have to have developed cultural identities and develop tools, and upgrade those tools. Neanderthals and apes have used the same tools all their species history. Only until seeing man did they innovate and change. Thus, the simple fact is that until I see a dolphin developing some kind of equivalent of this procedure, they are still animals. That's the border. Innovation and imagination.

The problem I have with that is I think your view on what constitutes a Person has an inbuilt bias and you may be guilty of anthropocentrism.

You start from the premise that humans are Persons and make the understandable but logically incorrect conclusion that Persons must therefore be like humans, hence have cultural identities, upgrade tools etc

This is the same logical fallacy that says:

A triangle is a shape.
A triangle has 3 sides.
A square has 4 sides.
Therefore a square is not a shape.

In first determining what constitutes a Person I think we need to ask if the entity is self-aware. If it is then it is a candidate for Personhood. If it also demonstrates intelligence, ability to learn, emotion, sociability, culture, innovation etc then that makes the case it is a Person all the stronger.

I also think you will have trouble in tying the concept of Personhood to possessing a soul, something it is hard to prove that even humans possess let alone other species.

[edit on 4/1/2010 by MarrsAttax]

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by flymetothemoon

 

Jigsaw still killed his subjects if they died in his traps :p

Yea, dolphins do seem to be just such a paradox and gift. You would never suspect such a loyal and kind friend in the savage seas. It's funny. They're carnivorous, and feel nothing eating sea creatures, but for all intensive purposes, it's like they simply won't hurt humans unless forced to protect themselves or agitated. Or, like humans, there's just one loony out there. It goes against natural order and evolution to have such a species. A gift indeed.

Sorry i explain. It's a device to catch the spider and keep it alive, till it will return to freedom, eventually. No spider gets harmed

What you say. That's what i think. They are like good humans. I've heard some military bases, have been training dolphins to kill people. No idea if this is true. But if it is, another example of abuse

Originally posted by LordBucket


Let me ask some questions to the thread:

1) If there were a serious movement to grant dolphins legal protections, for example, criminalize the killing of dolphins by levvying fines, incarceration or execution of humans who killed dolphins...would you support it?

2) If some number of dolphins were genetically adapted, or given technological aids...such that they could communicate verbally with humans...would your answer to #1 change?

[edit on 4-1-2010 by LordBucket]

No

and Yes

The second would make me rethink my answer to the first in that the very fact that they could use such enhancements/devices would prove to me they could communicate on par with humans. What form that communication took would seal the case for me. Would he say, "Me want fish!" or "Man, that's a cool sweater!" or "You know that whole Cold Fusion problem you've been having? Well...." Which of the three would make a big difference to me.

I mean, my dog tells me he wants a bone or food or water or he has to pee. I love my dog and all but he is still an animal and he'd be fourth on the list of animals I save from my house in a fire. Wife and kids come first, sorry my canine friend, you'reon your own until I get the others out.

Also, does anyone else find it a little off that the same people hyping Nature/animal rights/etc... fail to use the laws of Nature in their assessment? I mean we are the top of the food chain. Nature tells me I can eat anything I can kill that I need to survive. Right? That's how Marlin Perkins laid it out... I guess this goes along with the sliding scale of morality thing but this seeming incongruency bothers me.

After re-reading my "dog" paragraph, maybe that's the way to look at it... just classify us all as animals not elevate any species to some higher level of "Person."

Its good to know there are ppl out there trying to fight for these "creatures".

One time on vacation in Cancun i had the oppourtunity to swim with one and also had the privelege of making him/her do some of its tricks and at one point when it was floating right in front of me i joked with the trainer if i can try surfing on it and when i looked at the dolphin i couldve sworn he rolled his eyes. LOL TRUE STORY.

The eyes on dolphins and dogs look so human when you stare deeply.

reply to post by Mythtified


I can't agree more. Human arrogance has a habit of viewing all animals as our personal property. Frankly, that disgusts me. Whats worse is how we treat so many of them. Industrial farming has a tendency to treat animals used for food in the most God awfull manner. People seeing this in person often get sick, and they don't even have to like animals.

Marine mammals have a tendency, Dolphins specificly, to demonstrate truly awesome intelligence. When I worked for the Navy, we studied marine mammal sonar to see if we could copy any element of it for our use. We could make a fair copy of the "hardware", but the ability to emulate the natural "software" has as far as I know eluded us.

I have long thought that highly intelligent life could evoulve in our oceans, as well as on other planets with oceans for the simple reason the environment is for the most, for example temperature, stable for long periods of time. A planet wide disaster that could decimate the land might offer protection for something hundreds or thousands of feet under water.

The serious prejudice we have is we asssociate intelligence with technology. Living on land it helps to make tools, weapons, so we can augment our pathetic weapon free hunting skills. Not to mention the vital need to build shelter, make clothing, etc. Something that may be even much smarter then us may go un-noticed because they don't play by our rules. This could be why ET's could be swarming all over our world and we rarely see them because we just don't comprehend what their doing. (ET's of course appear to have staggering technology. To the point we can't understand it.)

By the way, Dolphins have the reputation of being very gentle, and playfull. A reputation I think is well deserved. But there are reports of Dolphins being hostile to humans, all though very few. And I have never heard of an attack that was unprovoked, or when the animal was not sick or injured. There are many anecdotal reports of Dolphins helping swimmers in trouble, pushing them to shore. Needless to say, we don't know how many people they may have pushed in the other direction...

As far as I'm concerned anything coming from the sea is sea food. like the bible says, man has dominace over animals.

Unless some of you think animals should have dominance over man? Strange world we live in.

No, you need to be human to be a ‘person.’ You all need another word for animals which you assume to be non-human humans. It is going to get very tricky otherwise.
When you get spat at and the officer is asking you who did it…
‘It was that person over there…’
‘Which person, the man with the gun?…’
‘No, he did not spit at me. It was that person there…’
‘Which person…the woman in the big hat twirling that pizza on one finger?’
‘No, it was not that person…but the person behind her…’
‘Which person…the ant second from the left of the 23rd line of ants building a hut on that log?’
‘No, it was not the ant. He or she has not bothered me…it was that person over there.’
‘The pig rolling in mud?’
‘No, Sir, not that person.’
Three frigging hours later after having identified and falsely accused every species of animal and insect on the planet….
‘Not the dolphin?’
‘Yes, it was the non-human person that spat at me…’
‘Ohhh, why did you not say so in the first place…’
‘I did, Sir.’…the sentient non-animal person is tasered to the ground.

A dolphin is a dolphin. A pig is a pig. They are not people. They are not persons. They are animals. All animals deserve respect, especially cows, pigs, sheep, lambs and ducks. They deserve not to have their throats cut, the blood drained from them, then to be sliced into pieces and either boiled, baked or fried for someone’s supper. But regardless, they are not persons.

dolphins are above us in every respect. They live and are a part of their ecosystem. They are infinately far more advanced than we could ever be. We are greedy, violent, and by far the most destructful species, on the face of the planet. To compare a dolphin to a human is an insult to such a wonderful mammal

My crazy uncle "owns" two dolphins. They hang out at his house all the time. I wrote it off as stupid fish begging for food (much like carp in an amusement park pond equipped with .25 cent feeders) but this is not the case.

He has a nice house (with a canal) and he told me how me made friends with two dolphins. I laughed. I visited him and hung out on his peer, playing with the dolphins. They seemed smarter than your average bear....but still, I thought "so what". He owns an ocean side restaurant several miles from his house. I went with him to his restaurant to have a good lunch, and sure enough, those same two dolphins showed up at our ocean side table. Odd, I tried to rationalize it thinking they know this is a hot spot for free scraps, but they didn't bother any other diners, just hung out right by us.

I have visited him many times, and can say these animals are not stupid fish, lol. Once, they were making an absolute racket, so loud we heard it inside his house. Some asshole had been motoring through the canals and his propeller had cut up a manatee pretty bad. My uncle jumped in the water (I didn't, water and sea cows scare me, lol). He swam over to the injured animal and asked for me to jump in and help him. I hesitated long enough and must have exhibited the tell tale signs of a coward, because BOTH dolphins swam in and helped my uncle get the animal close to the shore, where we called some animal rescue types to come in and aid the injured sea cow.

There is no way in hell they thought that was a game, and no way in hell they were acting on instinct. And these are "wild" dolphins too.

Dolphins are people too, so says my bumper sticker.

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
My crazy uncle "owns" two dolphins. They hang out at his house all the time. I wrote it off as stupid fish begging for food (much like carp in an amusement park pond equipped with .25 cent feeders) but this is not the case...

Wow, that was an amazing story. Thanks for sharing!

Dolphin is a dolphin, a pig is a pig, a human is a human. "Person" does not equal human. A person is a self-conscious or rational being. Or, a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing. If dolphins share that same distinction, theen of course they are persons. We would simply have to stop using human and person interchangably.

reply to post by flymetothemoon


Oh they did try to train them to be bombers on subs at one point. I believe that the dolphin in question learned that it was being used to kill life and refused to do the duty, turning around. No backing up of this because I only heard from another and I wouldn't know where to begin on researching it



reply to post by MarrsAttax


I beg you to go back to what I wrote:

I'd like to point out one thing. If this is true, it officially disproves that intelligent aliens have to look human. Thus the astounding vast numbers of humanoid "contacts" and only be viewed as not true. After all, if life on Earth can generate intelligent species so anatomically different from humans, how on earth can the vast diversity of planets with life on them ever hope to generate anything human-like? Told you so, so many times.

Also, I would like to tell you one other thing. I don't think we will find aliens with human levels of innovation and intelligence. It is very easy for species to become intelligent over time. It is nearly impossible for a species to become innovative, imaginative, and think in abstract and about the deep workings of the universe. You see, in the 4.5 billion years of evolution on Earth, countless intelligent species have come and gone. But only one innovative species has existed that can imagine an afterlife, concepts beyond what is seen in front of them, and actually look at the stars and see beauty. I'd imagine that out there are species purely of logic and science. They have no religion, nor concepts of culture and beauty. There was an episode of the twilight zone where an old hick who lies a lot got abducted because the aliens did not understand the concept of lying, thinking he was the greatest man on earth. Why do I believe this? That's probably what your thinking. Well it's simple. Humans were almost put to extinction. The probability of a species surviving what humans did to create our species is almost mute. And before that event, that's just what we were. Creatures of logic and what is seen. This also goes really with ufo stories. Think about it. Human culture has come so far, but stories of aliens, their technology, and who they are have remained unchanged. And science tells us that life is common in the universe. So why visit earth so much? Maybe they want that special something that makes us unique. They want that thing that makes us human, so they can be more then just logic and science and intelligence. Such a species only learns from trial and error, and thus their advancements would be linear (as opposed to us that is exponential) because what they make is not changed until they see something better. They would be millions of years old. kind of like the Asgard of stargate. I remember one conversation between them and humans. It went something along the lines of a human saying "come on, we could never think up the kind of stuff you do with lasers and plasma" and the asgaurd responds "we wound never imagine creating a weapon which mixes chemicals to explode a barrel in order to project a small iron cone at a target" with regards to beating the replicators with primitive weapons. I actually am writing something about this. A species millions of years old is at war with another species millions of years old. The two are locked in their ways. A trade nation and a republic. They cannot imagine what is beyond their eyes. But through millions of years of trial and error, they have become advanced beyond words. However, one side stumbles upon Earth, and as is protocol, tests for intelligent life. They seem perplexed by the human ability to innovate and create things beyond their reckoning. They soon take so much interest, that they breed themselves new leaders with hybrid dna. They need this trait to win the war and move onward. But they are unable to undo the damage to their own society. It is as if they give cavemen control of an intergalactic republic. The leaders take full control, win the war, but continue to grow their power. They grow themselves further advanced versions of themselves, accelerating human potential. They activate more areas of the brain and increase processing speeds. Suddenly this Galactic republic ruled by cavemen becomes a galactic empire ruled by self-appointed deities who give themselves almost god-like abilities. Useless unneeded civilians are rounded up and put into stasis until they "six the problems" they begin enslaving other species to collect resources and keep their civilians happy. Within a few decades, these hybrids are augments. They are immortal, and beyond wonders of power. All because they were not ready for such power. Earth was put on quarantine, and within a few centuries forgotten. The Empire cracked. Civilians were rounded up, put in the core systems, and the empire shrank. Great rings to create quantum tunnels to bordering arms of the galaxy are lost. They cut themselves off, and become gods amongst their native unaltered aliens. They secure their control indefinably, and the empire becomes nothing more than a resource processor.


The fact is I am the furthest from what you call me. I don't see aliens nor anything as needing to look human at all in any way shape or form. The above aliens are squids without bones or bodies. I simply believe that in order to be a species that is deserving of respect, you need to be able to have innovation and imagination. Intelligence is not a sign of worthiness. Because all the intelligence is useless if you don't use it for bettering yourself.

As to what I said about the soul, it's simply how I view things. Don't believe that part if you will, but the above is most certainly true once you look at the history of Earth and probability of it repeating elsewhere.

reply to post by Doglord


Your confusing the fish from the Porpoise. If I ever caught anyone hurting a Porpoise I would beat them senseless. I have seen more than enough proof to know that they are probably smarter than us. It should be very illegal to harm any Whale or Porpoise. For all we know is that they are put here by god to watch over the sea and what we do to it. That would explain why the great us so many times when we go out in boats.

If you have ever been in a small boat and had a huge pack of adult and baby Porpoises surround you and play then you know what I mean. It will melt you heart to see them come up and say hi a foot away. One of the perks living in Florida on the coast.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Doglord

 

The best thing about Dolphins is the way they taste.

And a Great White would probably say the same about you.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by randyvs]

Actually, it is scientifically proven that sharks dislike the taste of human meat.

reply to post by Sky watcher


That's kind of human idealist though. Being nothing but good means you'd want humans to be that, but that's not a sign of being better than us. All that proves is that they have instinct. A species that can be good or evil is a sign of free will. Intelligent they are, but smarter then us? they are not.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

these scientists are finding even more and more ways to waste money. Dolphins are highly intelligent yes but i wouldn't consider them nonhuman persons. A person is human not animal although some of us are hard to define.

Originally posted by Phenomium

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Doglord

 

The best thing about Dolphins is the way they taste.

And a Great White would probably say the same about you.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by randyvs]

Actually, it is scientifically proven that sharks dislike the taste of human meat.

I wonder who financed this research. And how/where do they manage to get human meat.

Originally posted by Doglord
The best thing about Dolphins is the way they taste.

yes it's great to be a highly advanced consciouseness such as a human being

Google Video Link

www.youtube.com...



They aren't just smart they R funny to!!!!! I♥Dolphins!!!!

to the post regarding the making of tools being the benchmark for intelligence. an example. lets say a couple hundred years ago, you are an american with no experience of visiting other countries or meeting their citizens. all you know is english as a language and only your own local area. one day, you meet lets say a russian with no arms. you do not speak his language, can not understand him. he can not make tools because he has no arms. by your standards, this person is not intelligent. he could be einstein or stephen hawkings, yet still could not build tools.

in the same vain, people who are afflicted with severe mental handicaps such as autism would not be considered human by such standards.

just a thought.