Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

reply to post by Gorman91


why is it upon the dolphin to learn to communicate with us? that is human bias in thinking. their form of communication just maybe too alien for us for the moment without a common frame of reference.

the poster just above pointed out that crows do have feet. dolphins have no feet nor arms. how are they supposed to use or make tools? they have been known to use objects with their mouths.

reply to post by blackthorne


Oh, but you misunderstand. When I said what I did, I meant that A form of communication must exist. Contrary to what you think, humans have been teaching animals language for may eons. We already have a method of language with the apes. For dolphins, it is sound, and indeed we do know how to communicate with these sounds. I don't think I mentioned this. I would LOVE an experiment to ask dolphins about what they think happens to them when they die. Apes too.

The burden IS on us to communicate with them. Know why? Because we are the more intelligent species that makes communication attempts and have the ability to cross wire inter species communication. We're the only ones able to think beyond what is seen and visible to the eye. We can imagine that there exists an alternative method for both of us to communicate. They do not. Because research tells us they they cannot see beyond what they see with their eyes and senses.

And yes, they do use their mouth. Never did I say it is a requirement to have human appendages to make tools. Quite contrary, what I said is "life finds a way" ergo, there are limitless ways to use tools in whatever environment is needed.


So again, I simply point out the facts. Intelligence is not difficult to achieve. A brain the size of a peanut can learn 1500 words and actually physically learn the English language and how to use it (the parrot who's name escapes me). However, the ability to think beyond what is seen, to imagine and innovate what you have, is only seen in humans.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Bobbox1980

 

Yes. And look how well they use them. Somehow a species like dolphins knows how to use military equipment. But it can only be a pet. Taught, but never innovate. Again, until you can take what you learn and do something with it, you can never be equal to humanity. You can teach an ape sign language, and that ape can teach it to others. But until humans came down and taught them it, they would never have done it themselves.

You can argue that most humans never do this, and that only some humans do the inventing. Indeed this is a good point. But surmountable evidence has shown that any random individual given tools can create something from their imagination that works. Once again, we see elephants painting. But we've never seen them do this on their own. Humans instinctively show their thoughts and ideas onto items. Creativity, that being imagination, and innovation, are what make you something worthy. Anything else is just an advanced copy paste machine.

What you're arguing doesn't make sense.

If we have the same ancestors as monkeys, as evolution claims (which I don't entirely support), why are we able to do that (be innovative etc), and why are other animals supposedly not able? What was the driving force for this?

It suddenly "happened" to us? Ok. What makes you think, that it didn't happen to dolphins? Or other animals? Maybe it did, but they are less physically capable to express it. Instead, they show an increase of morality and other traits that are important to their survival and their connection with nature. How do we know they don't do anything imaginative? Or innovative?

And what makes you think no one taught us anything? That's a different debate, but, what if we were taught certain things by the visitors of heaven or whatever, and kept implementing it to where we are now? In what sense would we be different from the animals that we have taught then?

What's the use of an elephant to paint? I don't think there is one. Believe it or not, all we have created, is because we directly, or indirectly, needed it, and in the worst case, has grown beyond our needs and has become an emotional addiction. Paintings are expressions of ourselves, just like music, movies, etc. Technology is also an expression of our needs. We wanted to communicate to people far away, so we invented phones, and internet. We needed to travel fast, so we created cars, planes. The list goes on and on. Animals have other direct and indirect needs than we have. They live in a totally different environment. And unlike us, they adapt to the environment, instead of (largely) adapting the environment to themselves, like we do. The whole point I'm trying to make here is, you can't say, that a species is smarter than the other, because it has less visible "creativity" or "technology". Would you consider a bee smarter than a dolphin because he can build a hyve, but dolphins don't build anything? Would you consider a spider smarter than a whale because the spider builds a web to catch stuff?

Maybe we should start taxing dolphins like we tax other persons then. Or elect one as leader, it just might actually help us.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
As far as I'm concerned anything coming from the sea is sea food. like the bible says, man has dominace over animals.

Unless some of you think animals should have dominance over man? Strange world we live in.

It also charges you with being a good steward - and I doubt you're that. So I'm sure that you finger wagging isn't worth a damn thing.

Bottlenose Dolphin (Tursiops truncatus)

Status: Vulnerable.

Population: The exact worldwide population of the bottlenose dolphin is not known. In the eastern tropical Pacific the population is estimated to be 243,500, while in the waters of Japan the population estimates are as low as 37,000.

Distinct personalities? Most moderately intelligent animals have personalities. My hamster sure did. Was a psychopathic little sod, and the only thing that could appease it was nutella.

As for thinking about the future.. what do they mean? Are they buying stocks & bonds, saving up for college funds?

While its obvious that dolphins are quite intelligent, shouldnt some communication beyond 'rudimetary symbol-based language' be established before people start ranting about dolphin's not being used in amusement parks?
Actually, Im suprised that there hasnt been any complex communication yet, remember seeing something on TV about dolphin's having different dialects depending on where they reside.

Originally posted by DreamingsFree
They have the mentality of three-year old humans, so how can we discount that. The eat fish. Big deal, so do we.

How do pro-lifers feels about the fact that these species have the mentality of three-year olds?

They are non-human, of course, but does that discount that they should be treated with the respect of another intelligent species.

Do we really believe we're the final and superior life being?!

Well... hate to burst your bubble there, but on this planet, yes we are.

You dont see any other species dominating the planet the way we do, do you?

So there ya go... yes we're the top dogs in this planet. And that doesnt include 3 year olds... 3 year olds cant even do a simple math equation and 3 year olds dont have the same rights as other human beings, like they cant vote, they cant have sex, they cant drive a car, they cant buy alcohol, they can't marry, etc...

edit: damn that chick on bluebelle's avatar is hot.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by FraternitasSaturni]

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


Earth is just one of many planets, and I doubt we are the most superior creatures in this vast universe and multiverse.

Even on this one planet, humans are a vast range of intelligences - ranging from the complete retarded to the geniuses. I cannot be proud of my whole species. Can a dolphin be proud of his whole species?

[edit on 4-1-2010 by john124]

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by DreamingsFree
They have the mentality of three-year old humans, so how can we discount that. The eat fish. Big deal, so do we.

How do pro-lifers feels about the fact that these species have the mentality of three-year olds?

They are non-human, of course, but does that discount that they should be treated with the respect of another intelligent species.

Do we really believe we're the final and superior life being?!

Well... hate to burst your bubble there, but on this planet, yes we are.

You dont see any other species dominating the planet the way we do, do you?

So there ya go... yes we're the top dogs in this planet. And that doesnt include 3 year olds... 3 year olds cant even do a simple math equation

and 3 year olds dont have the same rights as other human beings, like they cant vote, they cant have sex, they cant drive a car, they cant buy alcohol, they can't marry, etc...

edit: damn that chick on bluebelle's avatar is hot.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by FraternitasSaturni]

The police can dominate you at any second. Does that mean that they are smarter? What about tribes that are human but still live in a supposedly "primitive" manner like the Indians in the Amazon? Are we smarter than them too?

I guess I'll have to say it again..
- Knowing something does not make you smart
- Having power does not make you smart
- Thinking you're the smartest doesn't make you the smartest
- Having technology doesn't make you smart

reply to post by vasaga


Human innovation and creativity came about because, well, we were lucky. There is physical evidence supporting that humanity's last animal ancestors were nearly wiped off the face of Earth. Drought, volcano, and meteor. No species could normally survive this, yet we did. No one knows why. But out of this, came our ability. The reason why dolphins could not have developed this is because A.) they were not in the same geological area, and B.) sea creatures traditionally get of easy in extinctions. They are not under as much stress. Now more on that in a moment. Back to humans. So you think there's a chance that aliens taught us? Sorry, but mathematical graphing says otherwise. If there was any sign of intervention, we would not have an exponential graph of technological development. We would have some kind of wacky graph. The pyramids were build by ramps, found within the pyramids (not out as some assume). Pyramids are only found along societies in rivers that go north south, where humans see north south river of life, east west, light to darkness. The Mayan calendar could be easily made with some basic calculus, and calculus is not hard. In fact, you could chart the path through the galaxy with calc. But that's just a few points. The fact is humans remain special because we should be extinct. We were pushed to the limit and beyond, and made it out alive. Lucky us.

Now, dolphins. Morality has no correlation to innovation and creativity. Sorry, but being innovative and creative in how to kill people, which humans have been, shows a clear lacking in morality. What did I say about dolphins before? They got off easy. They are in the sea, where you literally have full 3d range. Morality could easily develop because their environment is calm, and as such, they are. They have predators, but they can avoid them. There's a clear ability for a species to have morals if they are in socially bonded communities. Apes are, dolphins are. Hell, along the highway, don't you always see crows in twos? occasionally fours? it's a social pack. But this is not related to innovation nor creativity. innovation and creativity have to do with knowing something, and then being able to make it something else. Humans always try to make things. It's this ability to think beyond what is seen in front of you that makes humans unique. That's why until a species is creative and innovative, it is not anything more than a very advanced copy paste machine. Worthy of protection? Well you tell me, do you feel sad when you see such noble creatures die? I do. But they are certainly not worthy of rights, other then to live, simply because we should be interested in having some form of brothers to replace us in the event of our death.

The fact remains that you have to teach these species how to paint, play, etc. They can't learn it on their own. Elephaunts don't paint abstract art. They either paint what they see or paint what their told. Now painting what you see is an accomplishment itself, but again, that's just copy pasting. Early man did it, but they also made abstracts at the same time. Dolphins actively chose not to kill other humans out of moral choice when trained by navy seals. This too is an accomplishment. But that's nothing short of instinct to not kill higher life forms. And yes, dolphins definably can tell what's smart and what's not. Look at our two species, we're not that different in appearance. Once a dolphin becomes friends with a man, it won't kill another man because it thinks it is it's own species. This, however, is simply isntinct not to kill your fellow species.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

Dolphin-fish (aka: el dorado, mahi mahi) great to eat while the Dolphin is great to meet.

They defend humans beings.

They swim with an up/down kick motion unlike the 'fish' Kingdom.
Humans swim the same way.

They are warm blooded as human.
They 'sense' this.

They identify with human beings as do whales.
I've swam with both.
I like them.

They have my vote.
Let's take 'good' care of them.
For our own good.

reply to post by Gorman91


So, you're actually saying, innovation and creativity determines how smart you are, and morals etc, have no value? I think this is wrong.. Maybe they are morally more advanced than we are. We have a LOT of moral problems, maybe they don't. We don't know. But in that sense, they could be more advanced than us.. They would be more in touch with their species, instead of in touch with technology, like we are.. We are not able to say we are smarter because we innovate more or have more creativity, because like I already said, we have different needs than them.

About the whole pyramids thing, I have one question for you. Where did all those stories of gods coming from the heavens come from? And please, don't answer me with "we made it up", because we are incapable of making up stuff from thin air. We can only see correlations between things.. There are a lot of more things to address in your post, but that would go way offtopic.

You say we are lucky, but we aren't the only ones that didn't go extinct.. How did all the other land animals survive then, if we are the only one with creativity and innovation?

You also said:
"There's a clear ability for a species to have morals if they are in socially bonded communities. Apes are, dolphins are. Hell, along the highway, don't you always see crows in twos? occasionally fours? it's a social pack. But this is not related to innovation nor creativity. innovation and creativity have to do with knowing something, and then being able to make it something else. Humans always try to make things. It's this ability to think beyond what is seen in front of you that makes humans unique. That's why until a species is creative and innovative, it is not anything more than a very advanced copy paste machine."

What if you are mentally capable of understanding and knowing a lot, but physically unable to project it into the physical world because of your environment and your physical self? Again, you can't use physical aspects as evidence of something that might not be projected in a physical way in the first place..

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
As far as I'm concerned anything coming from the sea is sea food. like the bible says, man has dominace over animals.

Unless some of you think animals should have dominance over man? Strange world we live in.

LOL, Men came from the sea you know, in fact without water you would only so much dust on the wind.

For all the wonderful things religion can for people, this attitude of "it all belongs to man" is a huge step into a spiritual dark age. A justification made by men to absolve themselves of the guilt that comes from the rape and pillage of the natural world is nothing I want to be part of.

As for the word "dominace" it is used to inspire fear and fear invites the flight or fight responce. I'm sorry there is nothing to fear here, only great enlightenment as we as a people and fellow inhabitant of Earth come to grips with our racial hubris and learn some humility. We should be embracing these moral questions as they are presented to us because if we don't we will be forever stuck in our past, forever using the same old justifications to absolve us from ever growing as a Race.




[edit on 4-1-2010 by Helmkat]

I wonder what excuses people will come up with to explain this:



Might not be a dolphin (lol) but still is interesting..

reply to post by Gorman91


It's very gracious of you to admit that we've not communicated in depth with these other intelligent species, and then you bang on about what and how they think and feel. You just admitted there is no way to currently know.

It's incumbent on us to cross the communications divide because we're the more technically adapt species. We have hands with opposable thumbs, we've got decent communication skills among ourselves, we are great tool-builders, and we're great problem solvers. Dolphins are two of those, just without the thumbs and advanced tools. Apes are all of those, just not up to our standards. To read anything more into the situation when we can't even talk to dolphins or apes is clearly a mistake. In one breath you're saying we can't talk to them, and in the next breath you're telling us how they think. Weird.

reply to post by rapunzel222


Humans are animals too. At the end of the day, our number one priority is survival. If that means a life must be forfeit, whether a goat, a dolphin, or a human , then that is what will happen.... without regard for intelligence.

It is Nature's way.

reply to post by vasaga


Being intelligent was a fluke of nature that suited us well. The more-intelligent proto-humans fared better than the less-intelligent proto-humans, and so intelligence was passed down to the entire species. We can see that no one taught us anything because we've discovered evidence for the evolution of our culture and society, too. That shows gradual, slight changes all along the journey from cavemen to farmers. No gaps are missing, and everything makes sense. It's not as if one day we were trying to throw rocks at the sun to fight off the scary sky-fire, and the next day trading stocks on the internet.

It's basic evolution. There is a bunch of evidence to support it. And no evidence to contradict it. None.

Deny ignorance. Accept the scientific method. Accept evolution.

I've always loved dolphins.They seem to have to have that perpetual smile that says, "Haha, we know something that you don't know." I love dolphins.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by oneclickaway
No, let us not define dolphins as non-human persons, seeing as the word ‘person’ is purely related to human beings as distinct and distinguished from animals. Let us not do that with trees or armchairs, paperclips or jelly beans either.
Let us instead define scientists as ‘persons’ with absolutely no common sense, who write meaningless papers about things we already know, and then add a twist to justify the sad waste of money. Besides which, it is an insult to dolphins to in any way equate them to persons.

--------nicely said. why equate them with people? what an insult.

id like to point out that even though dolphins do have a well-developed frontal lobe they do show violence and aggression in the wild. remember that guy who had a dolphin ram him in the stomach last yearish? you can check it out on google im sure. as a kid i wanted one like in the movie 2010 growing up a couple miles from sea world was cool, though creepy. tanked mammals never quite sit right with me (take that either way)
i wonder if they too have that special gene that make them easy to clone, unlike chimps but very much like us.........what if they are us?