The Illustrated History of MJ-12

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


No need to get roped into a never ending back and froth mud slinging contest. You, and several others have made up your minds that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever valid about the MJ-12 documents and we thank you for your diligent resarch and tireless pursuit of thruth as well as unwaivering trust in our gov't. God will reward you handsomely and your efforts will not go un-noticed by the President nor humanity at large.
God speed.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Last I checked, Truman wasn't around in the 80's to stop it...

Possibly one of the reasons why it came out when it did so no one of the period could counter it.

And to include Corso's photo, doesn't that clinch it that the whole post is associated with fake claims?

Originally posted by Gazrok
A valid question. In a letter, submitted by one source with some of the docs, the sender theorizes that due to the modern, paperless office, such information would next be found by a hacker, vs. archivists, and of course, how do you authenticate the contents of a computer file as genuine?

My personal feelings on this are more simplistic. The security technology of the times simply trusted on peoples' fear of the government and of the repercussions. Retinal scans, EMP wipers, and other measures weren't there, and it was an easier time for someone to slip a doc out of the office in their briefcase, or smuggle in a Minox and snap some pics.

But you are talking about more of the recent-modern technology. That stuff didn't exist in the 60s, 70s and even into the 80s. There should, if the group existed, be something to tell us who their immediate successors were at least.

Originally posted by The Lord and Savior
thank you for your diligent resarch and tireless pursuit of thruth as well as unwaivering trust in our gov't.

This is nothing to do with an unwaivering trust in government. This is not an either-or situation.

Originally posted by The Shrike
Possibly one of the reasons why it came out when it did so no one of the period could counter it.

Excellent point, Shrike. And this may be the reason why we don't have anything on any supposed successors to the program; at the time the MJ documents were "released", it would be possible any supposed successors could have debunked the documents.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
Nice presentation and I can respect all the diligence and hard work you put into this.

JohnnyAnonymous, yours is an empty compliment. A lot of hard work that produced nothing but a bad example of wasting time on useless research. This smacks of Roswell. It's too bad you are so easily impressed. I own the Brooklyn Bridge. Would you be interested in acquiring it for a nominal fee?

I can respect your point of view..

Where I differ with your statement is that regardless of whether You, I or anyone else believes what the "original poster" has presented, a large amount of time and effort went into this presentation. I simply was complimenting the amount of time and effort in the presentation and I still think it's an example of what you, I and all members of ATS should strive to do when making a post.

As with all things in life, it's up to the educated reader to decide if what is presented is true or not (after hopefully their own research). And isn't ATS the home for intelligent research, debate and discussion?

So I stand by my statement that it is a well presented post and that other members should use it as an example. Nothing more nothing less.. And I apologize to everyone for any possible thread drifting.. And so lets get back to the topic at hand..


Johnny

reply to post by The Shrike

The FBI investigated the documents, and concluded they were forgeries, based primarily on an opinion rendered by AFOSI, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Opinions among UFO researchers are divided: Some argue the documents may be genuine while others contend they are phony, primarily due to errors in formatting and chronology.

I looked over the 22 pages the FBI wrote BOGUS all over. They don't seem to compare to the 1952 docs I linked to. In addition, this hardly accounts for the other numerous documents that do NOT appear in the FBI's conclusion.

As for the AFOSI, CUFON has a documented response from the FOIA stating the IPU existed, and the files were sent to AFOSI. AFOSI insists they have no such files. The two governmental arms are contradicting each other. One of them is not forthcoming.

Shrike,

Is it your contention that we've never been visited by any alien craft despite the numerous photos, films, witness testimony, and statements of former military personnel? If so, then why would a UFO forum even interest you? Just curious...

reply to post by Gazrok


Wow, awesome job on the research and the way you put it together!! S&F!!

Its threads like this, that have been researched and presented like this, that truly hits to the core of what ATS is all about. I wish all threads were presented like this.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
The FBI has concluded the associated MJ 12 documents are "completely bogus". From what I understand anyway.

Yep, and the FBI is lying out of the side of it's collective face too, as always.
I have followed the MJ 12 papers story and ongoing investigations since 1987 when Timothy Goode published them in his book "Above Top Secret", and since then there have been a lot of attempts to debunk them as bogus and then more researchers and new expert witness testimony would arrive and destroy the debunkers claims over, and over again, like an ongoing soap opera, and from the overwhelming preponderance of evidence supporting the papers as authentic weighed against the weaker claims against them being genuine, I see them as 100% the real deal. and then there was also the General Twining memo to Truman that referrenced MJ 12 that was found declassified in Federal archives at a later date.
Nice work to the OP covering this. One of the best weapons I have seen over the years against officials debunking UFO type cases has been these stories, no matter how old or new, resurfacing and being rehashed over and over. The officials keep bending their stories to fit new evidence but the truth doesn't need to be changed or bent, so in genuine cases the truth is the winner

true this is a lot of info in support of your theory, but many people also think the alien conspiracy is disinfo created by the government

Possibly one of the reasons why it came out when it did so no one of the period could counter it.

A possibility, of course...but equally possible is that it did so no one of the period could retaliate in a more sinister way as well. Hunsaker was the last alleged member to die, and he died only 3 months before the documents first appeared (as I recall).

And to include Corso's photo, doesn't that clinch it that the whole post is associated with fake claims?

I'll admit Corso's ego is a bit immense in his book, but just as most things in UFOlogy, his claims are difficult to prove or disprove. He certainly was in the right place at the right time to do what he said, but that's really all we have to go on...

as Johnny said, it's up to each member to decide what is/what is not valid, and I certainly invite the same.

true this is a lot of info in support of your theory, but many people also think the alien conspiracy is disinfo created by the government

Sure, but if you believe that, at some point you have to ask the question, "When does the effort simply seem too massive to cease being disinfo, and get closer to what may have happened?" Is it realistic to assume the government and/or military weaved the intricate mythology today of the UFO coverup? And while one could argue that UFOlogists gave a hand....it still just seems to much to be a smoke and mirrors campaign of disinfo.


[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gazrok]

i wonder what the role was of pr.Bernhard of Holland ..founder of the bilderberg group....

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
I simply was complimenting the amount of time and effort in the presentation and I still think it's an example of what you, I and all members of ATS should strive to do when making a post.

Johnny

JohnnyAnonymous' reply edited for relevance.

When one makes the effort to present information that should be relevant, one should check all possible sources and present a balanced point of view not just one-sided especially on a subject that has no support except from those who want to accept questionable claims. I strive to do that and in my "defense" I offer Jim Oberg's reply to a forum membership back in the days. I will always reflect his feelings about my efforts.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/41156c0e455f.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by antideceit


The FBI is a member of the intelligence community.
Of course they will help hide Majestic 12.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Imagine it was July 1947.
You were the Director of Central Intelligence and you got a phone call
that the U.S. Army has recovered a damaged UFO that's about
52' in diameter and 90% operational. What would YOU do???


I would form a Majestic 12 organization to secure and research
this incredible machine.
My first order would be to move it to Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by The Shrike

 

[edited]
Shrike,

Is it your contention that we've never been visited by any alien craft despite the numerous photos, films, witness testimony, and statements of former military personnel? If so, then why would a UFO forum even interest you? Just curious...

Gazrok, you are so wrong by saying it's my contention. Even though I'm a natural skeptic of questionable claims such as alien abductions, I have never expressed doubt as to the reality of UFOs since I've stated ad nauseum my acceptance of their reality, followed by my 5 or 6 excellent, unquestionable sightings with one resulting in a video and I've posted vidcaps here under another name.

And I've been attending UFO forums since the '90s and one always has to deal with certain personalities that do not see the world except through rose-colored glasses. I see the world as it is and as it has been for 71 years, at least.

Mine was, is, and will always be the clear voice where the CW usually lacks the W.


[edit on 31-12-2009 by The Shrike]

When one makes the effort to present information that should be relevant, one should check all possible sources and present a balanced point of view not just one-sided especially on a subject that has no support except from those who want to accept questionable claims.

And yet, you are refusing to do so. Please go to the FBI report decrying the docs as bogus. Go through the 22 pages (I took the time to see the opposing view), and compare them to the documents mentioned. They are not the same, nor indicative of the many docs from varied sources. To refute just one doc, of one source, is not sufficient to automatically state the FBI has concluded all MJ-12 documents are false, when that is exactly the logical fallacy being stated.

In addition, there is the question of the FOIA response confirming IPU files given to AFOSI, but then AFOSI insists they don't have them. The knee-jerk reaction is that "the docs are fake, so the history is bogus" without a clear picture of just what has been refuted, and what hasn't.

Gazrok, you are so wrong by saying it's my contention. Even though I'm a natural skeptic of questionable claims such as alien abductions, I have never expressed doubt as to the reality of UFOs since I've stated ad nauseum my acceptance of their reality, followed by my 5 or 6 excellent, unquestionable sightings with one resulting in a video and I've posted vidcaps here under another name.

We are likely more alike than you think... I have other posts here to refute certain UFO events (the Mantell crash comes to mind)...(and you have my sincere apology for seeming to put words in your mouth...)

EDIT: Suffice to say, I actually enjoy the discussion, and I'm glad to hear opposing viewpoints in any thread. It only provides more information both to me, and the readers, so by all means, keep it coming!



[edit on 31-12-2009 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
The FBI has concluded the associated MJ 12 documents are "completely bogus". From what I understand anyway.

Right, and the FBI would totally blow the lid off MJ12 if the documents were authentic right?


I am seriously skeptical about this, as I think the FBI would never ever expose above top secret classified documents even if they were leaked previously.

If you know what I mean.

By the way, very good thread Gaz, Im lovin it!

Don't have time at the moment to read through this, but one question, how long did it take for all this research?

[edit on 31-12-2009 by -midnite-]

Originally posted by The Shrike


And I've been attending UFO forums since the '90s and one always has to deal with certain personalities that do not see the world except rose-colored glasses. I see the world as it is and as it has been for 71 years, at least.

You could try taking your blinkers off ... makes a real difference

Originally posted by The Shrike
Mine was, is, and will always be the clear voice where the CW usually lacks the W.


[edit on 31-12-2009 by The Shrike]

The only thing I see coming from your 'voice' is a lot of hot air, screaming that would put a 5 year old to shame, vindictive ridiculing, and very little (if any) light shed on any thread you 'grace' with your opinion.

The OP has put a well-researched topic out there for all to discuss and contribute to ... I suggest that if you really do want people to listen to your 71 years of wisdom you try listening to what others are trying to say, rather than ignorantly jumping in with a virtual megaphone trying to shout, cajole, insult and ridicule everyone into accepting your view of the world.

Geez, try taking your blinkers off and putting your megaphone down for a change.

@ the OP ... Superb thread ... thank you for taking the time and trouble to put it together

Originally posted by antideceit

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
The FBI has concluded the associated MJ 12 documents are "completely bogus". From what I understand anyway.

Yep, and the FBI is lying out of the side of it's collective face too, as always.
I have followed the MJ 12 papers story and ongoing investigations since 1987 when Timothy Goode published them in his book "Above Top Secret",

Above edited for brevity.

I've read books by Timothy Goode (sic) and, IMO, he is just another popular author who doesn't depend on facts 100%. Anyone can write a book about UFOs, since there is plenty of material on the web where one doesn't have to create it, and the authors are not held to strict guidelines as far as truth. There's a ton of UFO books out there and I would guess that at least 99.9% are simply bs.

Timothy Good is not that good!