The Illustrated History of MJ-12

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posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 07:07 PM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 


Rather than simply denying MJ-12 being real, without any great evidence other than opinion, I would like to see you offer a counter proposal--since you admit to accepting the legitimacy of UFOs--that can give us an idea of how they will eventually explain the government's coverup of at least half a century if not more.

One day, they will have to admit much of what they knew all along and be able to defend it with long lists of studies and long dead personnel. It can't be just allowed to be a big hole in the coming of the saucers. It won't fly for them to one day say, "Hey, you know, for decades we poo-pooed these UFO things and guess what! They exist! We are talking to some of them right now! How about that! Ain't that grand what we are doing for you?"

They gotta cover their asses. and slowly pulling out a bunch of legitimate papers, maybe mixed with faked papers, will allow them to show a paper trail that blames all of those other people in the past.

This is nothing but a building of a basically true case for their plausible denial of a precedent having been set from the beginning that they were forced to continue. There obviously has to be a paper trail, and if most of the principles are dead and virtually forgotten, why not dig them up and show them to be the ones involved? Are they all being framed and other dead guys are really the guilty ones? If so, why coverup for them? Who is being protected. The named figures are the key ones in our country at that time to be involved. Who else would you supposed could have been the ringleaders?

Now, if you have a better idea of how they will explain who did what over the last half century, I'm sure most of us would like to hear it. Basically, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater as the old saying goes.

There is a trail to be revealed and why should they lie (too) much about it?


[edit on 31-12-2009 by Aliensun]

[edit on 31-12-2009 by Aliensun]




posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 07:56 PM
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While I personally believe MJ12 is a total fabrication, I can't prove that it is. Normally, that wouldn't bother me as the burden of proof falls upon the teller of the tale...

In this strange case we are presented with 55 documents of which only a handful (that I am aware of) have been proven false.

I'll say it again, it is my belief that when one document in a set is proven a hoax the rest of them are most likely hoaxes too. Unfortunately that is only my belief and I can't prove it.

Does that mean the MJ12 documents are a forgery? I DON'T know and I challenge anyone who claims they do to show us the forensic evidence that proves it. I would also state that I have never seen any "REAL" forensic evidence they are real either...

Getting a Fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Science whose specialty is documents to thoroughly examine these documents would satisfy me completely one way or the other. I've just never been convinced it was worth the expense, yet...


In any case, this is the best (even handed, NOT biased or demanding acceptance) review of these documents I've seen, THANKS Gazrock!


Springer...



[edit on 12-31-2009 by Springer]



posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 08:03 PM
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I would rather that the boss give his opinions under a made up name like the rest of us. Somehow, it just seems unseemly to throw his weight into a fray..because it counts toward what ever the position he sides with.



posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by Aliensun
 


What "boss" is that?


Springer...



posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


Good to see you back posting in your subject matter my friend....VERY good info, presentation, and facts, S/F for sure...

I'll have to read though this more tomm. but GREAT JOB.



Shows why you were the FIRST UFO FSME...Great work as usual, and again great to see you back!



posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by antideceit

Originally posted by SuperSlovak


Above edited for brevity.

I've read books by Timothy Goode (sic) and, IMO, he is just another popular author who doesn't depend on facts 100%. Anyone can write a book about UFOs, since there is plenty of material on the web where one doesn't have to create it, and the authors are not held to strict guidelines as far as truth. There's a ton of UFO books out there and I would guess that at least 99.9% are simply bs.

Timothy Good is not that good!


A perfect example of another thread hijacked by a newbie. I wasn't logged in when I started reading this thread. As soon as I read shrike's post I knew he was one of the newbie disinfo thread hijackers.

Hey shrike, how many names are you posting under? Is it just the two you've already admitted to?

I love the emphasis you placed on your belief in UFOs. Its obvious you are threatened.

I'm calling you out. You're on my foes list but I have no respect for you.

One more thing shrike...
IGNORE THIS USER. Pass it on.



posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 10:54 PM
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The plausible deniability theory strikes a chord with me. Assuming vestiges of MJ12 are still in existence we may be seeing new authentic documents where only the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

As the US goes broke, it is going to become increasingly difficult to fund "side jobs" with slush funds. Soon enough our government is going to be forced to audit the expenses.

As greedy politicians come to grips with the fact that the Chinese have cut off the T-bill spigot, they're going to start rooting around military budgets searching for burried truffles.

Imagine the visciousness of the fight between the warthog politicians and the komodo dragon spooks. It will make these thread spats look like preschool. I can't wait.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 12:45 AM
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New Revelations on MJ12


Also, in early 1982, Moore had approached former National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt (who had first published a story on Roswell in the Enquirer in 1980). Moore asked Pratt to collaborate on a novel called MAJIK-12. As a result, Pratt always believed that the Majestic-12 papers were a hoax, either perpetrated personally by Moore or perhaps by AFOSI, with Doty using Moore as a willing target.


Does anyone know more about this book that Bill Moore wanted to write with Rick Doty and Bob Pratt?



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
As far as the FBI being honest and forthcoming about information regarding documents relating to national security?

Are you serious?


Are you serious?

Do you understand the contradiction you are making here?


I guess it must have gone right over your head, I was leaning towards the notion that if these documents were real would anyone expect the FBI to be forthcoming about therm and tell the truth, seeing as national security would be at stake and all.


+5 more 
posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 02:17 AM
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To add, it's quite disgusting and disheartening when someone puts a bit of work into something like this presentation to have the likes of "The Shrike" and his fantastical past presentations be so abrasive towards the topics author. It serves no purpose to come across this way other than making yourself look like an arrogant egotistical prick who hasn't had his daily enema and glass of prune juice. I'm fairly certain that somewhere in that head of yours you could have made your point without coming across the way you did.

When the very small handfuls of contributing individuals on ATS make a presentation like this and others see the way "certain" members behave within the thread, it diminishes their drive to contribute to this community and only serves to drive a fence between all of us.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by SuperSlovak

The FBI looked into how one "top secret" document became public, only to close the investigation when it discovered that the document was a fake.



Okay, let's look at this for a minute. If a real top secret document gets leaked and spread around on the Internet, what exactly do you expect them to say? The document is TOP SECRET, remember? If the objective is to keep the information contained in a top secret document secret, and that information gets released when you don't want it to, you have NO CHOICE but to say it is fake. That is the only course of action that will mitigate the negative circumstance. You CAN NOT under ANY circumstance acknowledge that a leaked top secret document is real. That is a plain common sense as anything.

The FBI has NO, I repeat NO responsibility to tell you anything about a top secret document, and if it does tell you anything, you can believe that in 100% of the cases, they will ALWAYS say it is not real. That is PLAN B when a secret comes out... misinformation, deception, deniability.

So, even if you are a skeptic, you still should use your minds and at least TRY to think like someone who is trying to be clandestine.




posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 08:25 AM
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To add, it's quite disgusting and disheartening when someone puts a bit of work into something like this presentation to have the likes of "The Shrike" and his fantastical past presentations be so abrasive towards the topics author. It serves no purpose to come across this way other than making yourself look like an arrogant egotistical prick who hasn't had his daily enema and glass of prune juice. I'm fairly certain that somewhere in that head of yours you could have made your point without coming across the way you did.


I appreciate the support, but please avoid the personal attack....per the Terms & Conditions. By all means, attack a poster's claims and/or position, but don't make it personal....


I'd add, that I'd much rather see replies on the pro and con sides vs. a bunch of folks agreeing with me. Only by examining the claims of the opposing viewpoints, do we learn more information to make up our minds, and this thread was posted in the spirit of sparking discussion.

Thanks everyone!



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 08:34 AM
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Definitely a good thread.
I have reasons to believe that MJ12 existed, although I can't really exclude it is a fake to lure UFO researchers while they were having the real "Majestic 12" behind closed doors...But when you start thinking like that, you can't trust the bread your baker sells right?


S&F, well deserved !



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 08:47 AM
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I was only watching the following documentary this very morning, nice thread













posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 08:48 AM
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I would rather that the boss give his opinions under a made up name like the rest of us. Somehow, it just seems unseemly to throw his weight into a fray..because it counts toward what ever the position he sides with.


In that case, Springer's weight should count towards the "con" side, as he stated he personally feels the documents are fake...



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike
Truly a waste of bandwidth! The premise has to be accepted for it to have any reality. If the premise is not accepted this whole thread is just bull defecation. No government has any recovered alien craft and no government has the knowledge to reverese anything that is light years ahead of present human knowledge. Never mind Bob Lazar's allegations. Common sense and logic are missing from this post.

This is an excellent presentation, but the bottom line is no one knows the truth about MJ-12, which most likely is a hoax.

I totally agree with Shrike. This so called 'reverse engineered' stuff is absolutely beyond logic. How can even the best brains here decipher the intricacies of alien craft (If they exist!) that are perhaps thousands of years ahead of us in technology?

It's like the Brigantes or the Dobunni tribals of the iron age trying to reverse engineer modern day computers with the available metal objects they played with!

[edit on 1-1-2010 by OrionHunterX]



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 09:28 AM
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It's like the Brigantes or the Dobunni tribals of the iron age trying to reverse engineer modern day computers with the available metal objects they played with!


Not really. The tribals wouldn't know what the computer was for, or have the infrastructure to even comprehend it's application. Makes for a much more difficult puzzle to solve. In addition, ancient man has accomplished many miraculous things, even as we call them "primitive"...(i.e. understanding the movements of the heavens, engineering feats such as the pyramids, etc.). I'm not one to knock the knowledge of our forebearers...

In a UFO, we've observed the flight characteristics, know the basic function (interstellar flight), and have knowledge of propulsion, nuclear physics, etc. It isn't really a fair comparison... Reverse engineering something, when you know what it is supposed to do, is much different than stumbling upon an object you know nothing about.

In addition, if we believe the basic premise of when we may have acquired a crashed UFO, they've had over 60 years to study it...
Certainly, many advances have been made in 60 years, so there is something to the idea that we could have at least made some progress and gleaned some tech ideas from it....



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 12:11 PM
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All this UFo and Rosewell and reverse engineering unfortunately draws similarities to war in Iraq. The war is never meant to be won, it is always to be meant to be sustained in order to have the procurement. Remember, that all of us who don`t work for government have to sell our skills, products or services, and to do that we need a market for that. Coincidentally a covered up secret engineering programs attract huge budgets that don`t need to fight with competition. where three denominators meet- 1. Secrecy.2. Lack of competition3. Constatnt funding. is in itself a mixture to cause trouble. It is like running a meatpackers company inside a vegetarian shark fraternity. Besides those are people who work there, and they are interested to keep their jobs, and to secure a job you MUST create either a natural or artificial demand for it. I believe that UFOs really crashed, and not once( the same rule as for cheating, if once, why not more). The problem is that very likely unjustfiably big money went into it allowing the funders to get away with something, because of giving...something.It is very unlikely that an overpriced white world F-22 could raise eybrows over money issues, while expecting that a totally secret project on financially unmeasurable saucers would attract diligently calculated pennies. And behind those procurements stand not some mystical gizmo nerds, those are actually companies, like Lockheed Martin, Northrop, General- Dynamics, etc. revealing the secrets would actually reveal ,probably, a different necessity of procurement level with far less zeroes..... How do I know that? Well, US always gravitates towards money ,even if it is off the ground/.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 12:23 PM
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here is the bottom line- The whole idea of MJ-12 was probably to create an artificial necessity of funding and sustain it through official government people who were paid both sides- as secret agents from government, and as agents of companies that would get the artificially inflated procurement. The generous procurement is the only thing that lead to total secrecy. In a carrot/ stick case , if the stick was the case, there would be always some lose canons, as you can always escape a stick by going to another country, while the carrot is tied to your paycheck. Guys whenever you investigate anything, first thing to do is discard `noble deeds syndrome`and follow the path that has been walked for eons- sloth, greed and lust in all proportions and shapes.................



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


Yes, i think that spacecraft in New Mexico had fiber optic cable,
microprocessors, LCDs, and other high technology equipment
that we all use today.





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