Corso imo is a lying ego-maniac. There is plenty enough meat to the MJ docs to not summarily reject them imo. How anyone could take at face value, anything the FBI dredges up on this boggles my mind. hmm... would they possibly have any reason to lie about eye-only, national security level documents? Hmm....

How many here have read Friedman's book on the subject? The amount of research put in was amazing. But here is the thing. If this was a fraud, I'd be almost as impressed as if it were the real thing. I can't fathom the amount of planning and time it would have taken to do this. A no-money prospect, since it was submitted anonymously. What was the point?

Pretty cool this thread coincides with a film being made about the "Battle for LA" .

Check out aint-it-cool news for some pics

hmmm wonder why its here ..........

Gazrok~

Awesome thread man!! great job !!

I always thought ( well, for 4 or 5 years now) that I had a decent grasp of what MJ-12 was,
But you have provided some things I never knew before
Many thanks , Ive been reading some of your threads lately, and you rock, man. lol

Thanks again, keep it up! s&f

Ahmose

The biggest shocker to longtime UFO researchers was the discovery of the name of Donald Menzel, the Harvard astronomer, on the MJ-12 list. Menzel was well known as a passionate debunker of flying saucers and the author of three anti-UFO books.

what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
The biggest shocker to longtime UFO researchers was the discovery of the name of Donald Menzel, the Harvard astronomer, on the MJ-12 list. Menzel was well known as a passionate debunker of flying saucers and the author of three anti-UFO books.

what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

G'day SuperSlovak

I "sit on the fence" as a very interested observer of all of the MJ12 material, wondering where it will all lead to.....

On the "debunking" side of the argument, perhaps Menzel's name was put there to add credibility to a fabrication.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

I always felt MJ-12 was just too good to be true. I read a good chunk of what I could find and came to this conclusion: It's just too straightforward and kind of seems like everything I, as someone who in interested in the existence of extraterrestrials and issues relating to it, would want to hear.


however, I will note that it's totally feasible that higher authorities (i.e. the FBI) would discredit these documents and all those involved in order to hide the truth out in the open.


Pretty hard to believe something that the gov't says is bogus, no?

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

making sure what they see is a UFO, not a bunch of crap.


pardon me for saying this but um..


duh.

while i dont dispute mj12 exists, i dont think u have done your research properly. if you look into it, as much as joseph farrel did, you would see that mj12 was connected to project paperclip and the nazi influx of personel after the fall of the 3rd reich and the technology they brought with them. A conspiracy no doubt, but not alien. Everything that people see in the sky, triangles, disks, ect. cant remember who said it but it was: its not exotic enough to be alien, but it is exotic enough to be nazi. And this is proveable if you bother to look hard enough, an im physics major so i should know better if its not

Originally posted by piddles

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

making sure what they see is a UFO, not a bunch of crap.


pardon me for saying this but um..


duh.

pardon me but there are too many inconsistancies like this one for this story to hold any truth in it. I thought that was common knowlage around here.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
The biggest shocker to longtime UFO researchers was the discovery of the name of Donald Menzel, the Harvard astronomer, on the MJ-12 list. Menzel was well known as a passionate debunker of flying saucers and the author of three anti-UFO books.

what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

Years ago, I read a credible source that said that Menzel, despite his books, was an insider. I believe it was a personal friend of his that revealed that. Of course, this is double or quatruple hearsay coming from me.

Of course, there were disinformation agents from day one. And we can validate that Sagan was an entusiastic UFOer until he wised up that that view was not gonna help him get a Ph.D. He went from writing a letter to the Secretary of State as an undergrad asking what they were going to do about UFOs, to never admitting again to UFOs even though his many books eagerly discussed ETs being out there SOMEWHERE and possible visited Earth in the past, they just not here now in UFOs.

I donno. Some of you folks seem to think TPTB plays with a straight deck!

Originally posted by SuperSlovak

Originally posted by piddles

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

making sure what they see is a UFO, not a bunch of crap.


pardon me for saying this but um..


duh.

pardon me but there are too many inconsistancies like this one for this story to hold any truth in it. I thought that was common knowlage around here.

LOL! You people are so funny really! Sometimes I really wonder if anybody here actually has the ability to "think differently" from their normal, non-clandestine, non-spy, non-secret way of thinking. I see post after post trying to apply the concepts of "openness", "honesty", "disclosure", "truthfulness", "completeness", etc. to the organizations of FBI, NSA, CIA, and government in general.

I think ATS should sponsor a class in "government thinking" and "introduction to clandestine methods." There is way TOO MUCH "looking through civilian glasses" here, and that is making for a very frustrating analysis. That's why this entire website is misnamed. We call it "Above Top Secret", but then we attempt to bring the truth out, to expose the real deal, and to make all things clear. That is exactly OPPOSITE to the way real clandestine work operates.

There was an advertisement playing for a while on Live365 Internet radio by the CIA. They were advertising for people to join the National Clandestine Service, probably for spying on neighbors, and what not. Well, anyhow, in that ad, they posed the questions:

"Are you ready for a life of purpose? A life of adventure and AMBIGUITY?" Yes, that's right! They actually asked for people that WANTED a life of ambiguity! Can you believe that?

Anyhow, can we please raise things up a notch here at ATS and start applying the right kind of thinking to the situation? When looking at anything that comes from a clandestine agency, we need to use a standard that recognizes these facts:

1) They are ALL ABOUT secrecy and deception
2) Because of #1, you can't believe ANYTHING they tell you
3) Because of #2, you should ASSUME the opposite of what they tell you

How do you compartmentalize a breach in security? If a secret document gets out when you don't want it to, how do you contain it? Do you declassify a secret document just because it gets leaked? NO. Do you throw away your mandate to protect secrecy and all-of-a-sudden become honest and transparent? NO.

So, what are your options when a secret document gets released? If you say it is real, then the secret is OUT and everybody will be forced to believe it. So, how do you contain the secret even after the secret is leaked? Only one way... DISCREDIT and DISAVOW. That's it. That way, you will create a controversy of believability, and they know that most people will do exactly what you are all doing... you will apply normal standards of honesty to the business of clandestine work, which is exactly why their tactic works.

As signicant as the level of detail included by the op is the fact that a group of intelligent people are even discussing them.

Step back 10 years and try to remember the state of ufology and the infintessimal amount of people who would even consider the possibility ufos were real.

Look how far we've come and how much we take for granted now.it amazes me how much info has become part of our lexicon and accepted pop culture.

I remeber reading a new book in 1998 by a self proclaimed participant of the govt. Remote viewing program. He said that we were being conditioned for disclosure by a methodical innundation of data.

Since then I have noted an incredible increase in number and level of detail at every level of society. Try, for instance, to find a cartoon less than 10 years old that has not had an alien character in at least one episode.

Commercials regularly tap the genre. Even scientists in a variety of fields are willing to consider ideas that would have been career enders.

Native and aboriginal religious references have been expounded upon and joined by the Pope!

Disclosure seemed impossible to me in 1998. Now I feel it is unstoppable and certain people who were a part of the cover up or profitted are trying to insulate the reputations of their families and positions of power.

Many of the original players did not come from old money. As that money has filtered through a couple of spoiled generations, the willingness to participate in the lies and the hard work to maintain them decreases.

Consider the desire of hard working immigrant grand children who would rather clip coupons than bust their asses in the family business that made them rich in the first place.

History is being rewritten as we speak. The question will be which version will be closest to the truth.

Originally posted by Aliensun

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
The biggest shocker to longtime UFO researchers was the discovery of the name of Donald Menzel, the Harvard astronomer, on the MJ-12 list. Menzel was well known as a passionate debunker of flying saucers and the author of three anti-UFO books.

what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

Years ago, I read a credible source that said that Menzel, despite his books, was an insider. I believe it was a personal friend of his that revealed that. Of course, this is double or quatruple hearsay coming from me.

Of course, there were disinformation agents from day one. And we can validate that Sagan was an entusiastic UFOer until he wised up that that view was not gonna help him get a Ph.D. He went from writing a letter to the Secretary of State as an undergrad asking what they were going to do about UFOs, to never admitting again to UFOs even though his many books eagerly discussed ETs being out there SOMEWHERE and possible visited Earth in the past, they just not here now in UFOs.

I donno. Some of you folks seem to think TPTB plays with a straight deck!

Exactly! You would think this would be WELL UNDERSTOOD by the people who frequent a conspiracy website. I mean, I'm here at ATS because I do believe that conspiracies exist. I find them fascinating to study, because they inherently contain mysteries, and they are perpetrated by people who have taken the time to study the very things they DON'T teach you in school or church.

It seems like a lot of people come here to constantly disprove all conspiracies, which is just strange to me. Imagine a guy who hates horse racing going to the race tracks every day just so he could disparage the races! Imagine a guy hanging out at the nation's capital every day because he thinks politics is bad and he wants to heckle the politicians!

Don't people have something better to do than spend time trying to tear down or disprove that which they don't like or believe in? Isn't there something in life that you actually like and want to support? Why do you feel compelled to tear down what others believe in? It's like these people who devote their lives to disproving religion and trying to sway others from having any faith. My question to you is: WHAT THE HECK BUSINESS IS IT OF YOURS?

If conspiracies don't exist, if government is honest and open, if spy agencies don't lie, if clandestine operations don't exist, if the world is exactly as it's presented by teachers, politicians, parents, and the media, then perhaps this website should be renamed from AboveTopSecret to BusinessAsUsual...

One funny thing about the FBI exercising authority to issue a statement that the MJ 12 docs are a hoax is that they havn't been able (historically) to even get their hands on these kinds of documents in the first place.
and even to this very day they do not have access to every level of classified information especially highly compartmentalized stuff.
So, for them to even issue a statement that they are hoaxes is highly suspect. J edgar Hoover was refused info on ufo's etc, from various other agencys including military because he didn't need to know the information except for curiousity. It is not a good ole boys and girls network for all the different agencies and the military to share top secret information, quite the opposite.

Originally posted by antideceit
One funny thing about the FBI exercising authority to issue a statement that the MJ 12 docs are a hoax is that they havn't been able (historically) to even get their hands on these kinds of documents in the first place.
and even to this very day they do not have access to every level of classified information especially highly compartmentalized stuff.
So, for them to even issue a statement that they are hoaxes is highly suspect. J edgar Hoover was refused info on ufo's etc, from various other agencys including military because he didn't need to know the information except for curiousity. It is not a good ole boys and girls network for all the different agencies and the military to share top secret information, quite the opposite.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Star for you! Finally, someone who gets it... you are now applying the right kind of thinking. Just the fact that they said it was fake, only goes to prove the opposite when dealing with this kind of secret world.

Now, if you want to see how the FBI deals with a truly fake document, try typing one up and sending it to them. If you make a fake document and send it to them, asking for their analysis, they will likely tell you that they don't do that kind of thing. I mean, they are a crime investigation organization, and only for crimes that cross state boundaries. They would simply ignore the issue, because they are not in the business of analyzing documents.

Has the FBI come out with analysis concerning other documents? No, they have not. If this whole UFO thing was a fake and had no merit, they would treat it just like they do the Loch Ness Monster and Big Foot. Go ahead, type up an official looking document claiming that there was a secret government group called LN-7 (Loch Ness Seven). Make it look as real as you can, and then submit it to the FBI for official analysis... they will laugh at you, guaranteed... and then politely refuse to spend government money on such things that do not fall in their purview.

The fact that they did this big analysis on these documents, and then came out with an official declaration of "hoax" is clear proof, in the clandestine way of thinking, that these documents are not a hoax at all.

Really, if you want to see whether this is true or not, write up a TOP SECRET document that is a letter from Harry Truman, where he talks about UFO's, and attach his signature, which you can find online. Send this document out on the net, and then have someone "leak" the paper version to the FBI. Then sit back and watch what they do.

If it's fake (which it is), they will do nothing.
If it's real and classified, they will call it a hoax.
If it's real and declassified, they will say it is real.