Down with all religion!

reply to post by audas


I know many atheists who would gladly kill religious individuals in order to "better" the world.......your argument is chewable...like starburst....YUM

reply to post by audas


I watched it. That was the most sorry video I have seen in quite some time. Not exactly mind blowing. On the same level as the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" b.s. It never ceases to amaze me that people fear to acknowledge God. You can call it reason. You can call it logical. I call it lunacy.

Those who deny the existence of God deny the very order of the Universe, the complexity of it all as well as its sheer beauty. Every single particle, law of nature, you name it was placed here by Him. Why is that so hard to fathom?

Could it be that modern Science has made it too easy to discount God? I believe so. Just because our knowledge of how the Universe works has increased doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. I've said it so many times that I believe that Science and God are the same thing in a way. The Bible is the what. Science is the how and He is allowing us to unlock some of his secrets to better the human condition for the time being.

It is prophesied in the Bible that man's knowledge and technology would increase exponentially as we approach the end times. Be careful not to believe. While it is your choice and He gave you freewill because He loves you, it would be wise to at least consider the possibility of God.

[edit on 19-12-2009 by av8r007]

I've never understood how some of the same people here on ATS spewing things like "Don't be another drone" or "Don't become another brick in the wall like "THEY" want you to" Are religious. I just don't understand how anybody can be so disbelieving of their government and their leaders, yet fall into the trap and death machine which is organized religion.

It is my personal opinion that religion is nothing more than a joke, I mean seriously, the same bible thumping bigots who tell you that your sins will take you to a fiery unbearable death are the same people cheating on their wives (sin), smoking or drinking (sins), and any number of things that the bible deems unholy. I hate to be disrespectful to other peoples beliefs but religion is nothing more than a man-made tool which divides us as a people. Religion is an essential element for war and until the majority wise up and realized that, we are going to be stuck in this hole.

It is many people's belief that religion was first instilled to explain things that man could not, things like the sun, rain, thunder, lightning, etc. Now we have the necessary tools to inform us of what these phenomenons are actually created by, and yet we still cling on to the belief that there is an almighty power which controls us all. If that is how some of you would like to live then so be it, it's your life and waste it all you want, but I'll be damned if I'm going to live my life by a bunch of rules than were constructed by an invisible being.

When you die, your existence ceases, is that so hard to fathom?

[edit on 19-12-2009 by Perplexity]

reply to post by Perplexity


No, it is because of God and the founding fathers I value my freedom and loath the very government that would do things like restrict my right to arms, install the Patriot Act to spy on her citizens, and run a massive ponzi scheme that does nothing but perpetuate debt. A government that will force me to purchase health care that I do not need or want. A society where extremely liberal progressives are trying to take my God given rights and way of life.

Religion does not control me. I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because I was taught and made the decision myself. Nobody held a gun to my head forcing me to choose God. The government however would gladly hold a gun to my head (police armed to the teeth) to force my decisions.

Originally posted by av8r007
reply to post by Perplexity

 

No, it is because of God and the founding fathers I value my freedom and loath the very government that would do things like restrict my right to arms, install the Patriot Act to spy on her citizens, and run a massive ponzi scheme that does nothing but perpetuate debt.

Funny that you mention the founding fathers, who were composed of more deists and atheists than Christians. It's amazing how far we have come since then, the founding fathers were weary of Religion being mixed in with government, and with good reason. You may not believe you had religion forced upon you but just look around. Today the intellectual is shunned, you are "weird" if you think outside the box and if you don't believe in god than society labels you as "not normal" Complete idiocy. But let's go back to my main focus. Religion is detrimental to society, and that is a fact. There are no if and's or but's about it. It's almost mesmerizing, how something as unprovable as religion can be taken as fact by so many. It has a certain beauty about it followed very closely by a certain evil. The craziest part to me is how Christians fling their noses up to Scientology or Islam. How can any Christian believe that their beliefs are more justified than any other group? I could make my own religion in a heartbeat, I could say that an invisible elephant is always floating above your head, it knows when you do bad, as well as good. This elephant decides whether you spend your after life in agony or in joy. So what gives Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, or anyone else the audacity to say that their religions are more valid than mine?

^ ^ And that is where the hate begins.

reply to post by Perplexity


I don't think you're weird because you don't believe in God. I wish you did, but alas you do not. It is your choice. Some of the founding fathers did not believe in God and others did and overall they were good. The founding fathers were and still are heroic. They were beacons of freedom and every American should model themselves to their valor.

Separation of Church and State is a good thing, but I do not think people going into uproar over the ten commandments in government buildings is necessary. Separation doesn't mean God can't be mentioned or in the plaques on walls, it means that the laws passed cannot be religious. It leads to repression as seen in Islamic states. It's a sad fact. People should be free to choose religion.

What puts people in an uproar here is the constant attacks on religion in these forums. For the most part (not always) you don't see regular posts attacking atheism. It's always the atheists here that attack the religious (again for the most part) so it leaves one to wonder who's really on the offensive and aiming for repression.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by av8r007]

reply to post by TaraLou


Chairman Mao was responsible for the deaths of more people than any organized religious institution in human history......combined.

Stalin has 2nd place.

National Socialism has 3rd.

The Mongol Hordes have 4th place.

I see a clear commonality between all of them and its not religion.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by TaraLou

 

I see a clear commonality between all of them and its not religion.

How is it possible to tally up death by religion? Nobody, including you, possesses the true knowledge needed to know the true agenda of any murderer.

reply to post by Perplexity


How is it possible? Its historical records and demography.

I don't need to know what someone is thinking, actions and words speak far louder than any unknown thoughts. Hidden ideologies and secret thoughts don't excuse responsibility.

The truth is that humans are a violent and aggressive species. These violent and aggressive instincts can be somewhat tempered and restrained by values. The loss of these values, especially the value of human life, is what leads to barbarism and genocide.

Religion isn't the problem. Human instincts are.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by 13579

 

Were cats made in God's image?
Were dogs?
Ants?
Elephants?
Dinosaurs?

Nay, I believe you know the answer....

In Egypt, yes they were or have you never heard of Sehkmet, Bast Anubis etc...

But of course, the inherently confused christian mind will "argue" that they are all false gods and that the only real Deity is one created in the minds of men almost 2000 years ago as a tool for spiritual and political manipulation of the feeble minded masses.

The christian "god" was created by MAN and in MANS IMAGE! Not the other way around my friend.

Originally posted by thunderabove

Originally posted by antideceit
[

You just proved my point completely, "done in the name of religion" but the doer is well aware that the religion he is using to mask his evil deeds is not actually the cause, but his own evil ways are the source.

This is an absurd statement. I don't even know how to respond to this. My head is going to nuts to think of any specific names but you are saying that the terrorist muslims that are doing everyting for allah are actually not doing it for allah? bollocks

They know full well in their own heart they are using the excuse that mohammed has given them to go out and do whatever they want in the name of Allah.
Mohammad was not a prophet in the slightest form. he was an evil opportunist that saw an easy way to rally support for a selfish agenda.
My statements are not absurd, it is your own paradigm that is confounding you.

reply to post by asturel13


Wouldn't a deity in the image of a human (hominid) be just as relevant as a canine or feline deity? Also wouldn't a man made religion be as relevant as any other man made ideology, art, philosophy or theory?

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Sorry,but saying the problem is instinct is sort of a cop out. And generalizing an entire species is hardly an educated action. No records or demographics can tell you what any of the individuals you listed were thinking, or explain the true reasons for their actions. It may have been religion based, you don't know. If a person allows their mind to be corrupted enough, they will do anything they are told. Whether it be by an individual, or a group. Instinct is not the problem here.

However you do bring up one of my favorite debate topics, the topic of "Is man, without outside influence, good or bad?" Sadly, there is no way to prove either side.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by Perplexity]

[edit on 20-12-2009 by Perplexity]

reply to post by Perplexity


Saying we don't know is a cop out. Saying it was religion is a cop out. Its just as silly as saying "the devil made me do it".

Humans choose to do what they do, they pull the trigger. Ultimately they are responsible for their individual actions and they must be held accountable.

I might ask, instead of good or evil, if humanity without values could be civil? Hobbes and Nietzsche would argue that humans without values cannot be civil. History and psychological studies would seem to agree with that, but Rousseau and Locke would argue otherwise. Personally I think the Machiavellian scheming by the alpha members of the species imply that regardless if humans are inherently civil, a minority of narcisistic sociopaths tend to dominate the whole species. The sociopaths themselves are inherently without values, operating as social darwinists and exploiting those with values.

In reference to the thread, its this bizarre dynamic among humanity that results in much of the suffering, death , and destruction that plagues it. Humans have a hierachy of psychological needs and the alpha members have no problem stepping on others to fulfill those needs. Thats why I say this is a problem with human instinct. These are obsolete survival traits. Even the abused who identify with the abusing sociopaths and then submit to the will of the abuser are falling back on survival traits.

To me this brings up a very great question. Just as those who violate the lives of others are individually responsible for their actions, shouldn't those who submit to the violation be just as responsible?

I dont think this is true.

Look at people in the world. 99.999% gets along fine with everybody. They live their lives in peace and dont wish to cause trouble. Also, they dont have any power over what their leaders do, just like we dont either. Nobody does.

Therefore, it doesnt make sense to say that religion is the cause of all our problems. If you have looked into the history of the CIA, you know that they have been involved in creating most conflicts in the world. Nobody makes money or gets increased power when the world is at peace. Thats why it never is.

People shop more when they feel unsafe. They are also more inclined to ask for protection, even when the protection is made of prison walls around them. This is all basic psychology. There is a reason the world is in chaos and its because many people profit greatly from it.

But getting rid of religion is great for building a world government. They cause the problems and people then ask for a solution. Its getting SO OLD if you have studied history, believe me.




[edit on 20-12-2009 by Copernicus]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Point taken, but the things we believe in can shape who we are and the decisions we make. If a religion teaches me that anybody who doesn't believe what I believe is a potential threat to my exist, and my families existence, of course I am wrong for killing them, but in my mind I have made my "God" happy, and because I am hypothetically loyal to this religion, the satisfaction of making my god happy topples over any wrong doing I can do here on earth in my present state of being, because my god promises me that if I complete his will, I am guaranteed eternal happiness.

I'm not saying that any of the people you listed had this belief system, but they may have. Whatever was going on in their minds while they gave order after order to kill was obviously justified in their sense. If your going to blame it on instinct I would request a more in depth answer than just "instinct did it"

Perhaps you could answer these questions for me to help me better understand your argument: What instinct did any of those mass murderers you listed possess that I do not have? I am human just like them, therefore, according to you, I possess the instinct to do what they did, correct? Since instinct is something every human shares, wouldn't I too have the same instincts that they all had? If this is so then why do I not believe what they did was right?

Edit... didn't really have a point so I took it down.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by av8r007]

Originally posted by av8r007
Edit... didn't really have a point so I took it down.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by av8r007]

Lol well I caught it before the edit, I couldn't find a point to be made out of it either but it was just an example. And yes my example was a bit extreme but I think it was an appropriate example for this argument.

reply to post by Perplexity


I should clarify that I am saying that the individual is ultimately responsible for their actions. They choose to pull the trigger. Its an act of personal will. Even if they give in to an unconscious drive, they are still choosing to give in.

In regards to instinct, my point is that humans are instinctively violent, aggressive, hierarchical and territorial. This is a trait that can be found in all Hominids. You should have the same instincts as well, as all humans do.

If this is so then why do I not believe what they did was right?

This is because you have values. There are things you value whether it be life or liberty that conflicts with the actions of tyrants. If you value these things because you don't want to be violated, this basically makes you civil. You probably favor a civil society that has values, a social contract, that protects its citizens from other humans.

This is what makes you different, especially if you believe the values to be inalienable.

Not everyone is like that though. Sociopaths have no values, but may maintain an appearance of values for Machiavellian reasons. They do whatever it takes at any cost to climb the ladder, get to the top of the food chain and become an alpha member.

The mind of such a person might seem almost alien to you.

Historically this can change due to environmental factors. Studies indicate that if your fulfilment of the hierarchy of needs is at the bottom, as in a famine, you will lose all values and dignity. Examples of this can be seen in Soviet gulags and Nazi concentration camps. Here humans become apathetic and lose all interest in values.

Another historical indicator of change due to environmental factors can result when your higher needs are suddenly being met and just as suddenly those needs are not met. Examples of this can be found in every violent political revolution from the American to the Iranian. In these scenarios humans violently overreact to a sudden loss of fulfilment that they had just gained.

Both of these seem to indicate some unconscious survival mechanism that kicks in.

Chronic trauma can also change a person's values and create a relationship where the abused identifies with the abuser and develops affection for the abuser. Examples of this can be seen in the Soviet Union under Stalin and even abusive domestic relationships between mated humans.

What does all of this mean in reference to the thread? That religions and ideologies become tools and means. They can be corrupted and abused. The source of this corruption and abuse isn't the idea itself, but the humans who choose to corrupt and abuse it. An idea can be just a dangerous as a gun, but in the end a human still has to pull the trigger.

Originally posted by TaraLou
It is the number one reason for wars - always has been.

Yes and no.

It appears to be the religion : but not just the religion : religion is a tool : and you are right.

But what create wars : the wish to absorb more ressources (geological, or human)( and the capitalism philosophy is created in this view : the property : state, not individual: in the family) : the wish to create a big(ger) empire : and where could they catch this "ressources" in other "states". And the state are creating upon ideology (and politic) : religion is political.

Question : What is not political ?

Hitler does not want to kill all religions : and all the european states.

This is the today problem of globalisation :and some wars in africa : you think it's about religion : but it is about political power for an elite. ( that use 's religion : but this is illusion : most people in the elite are not totaly stupid : they just understand what is their interest : with "basic" logic. THEY CANNOT think in complex logic : and create a complex system with freedom : this should be noted).

AND YOU KNOW : there is not just not wars with soldier and army

THERE IS AN ECONOMIC WARS : and usa tried to win this global wars : and i they win ! (even with the economic crisis : but most people don't understand economy : the power is not in numbers : numbers are created for the sheeple, for the slaves, by the masters : that is all ).

[edit on 20-12-2009 by psychederic]