Fox News: cutting minimum wage ‘better for workers’

Or lower the wages of politicians and those in government!

I never actually rooted for the raising of minimum wage, even when I was younger and worked minimum wage jobs I knew that when the minimum wage would raise, so would the prices of everything else...soda, milk, eggs, bread, movie prices....

However lowering it now when families are hurting is not a good idea at all.

Originally posted by whaaa
I read the article you provided and this is what stuck out that made it lose all credibility and turned it into just conservative BS rhetoric and fantasy.

Poor people are not poor because of low wages. For the most part, they're poor because of low productivity,

As a young man I worked for min. wage and I can assure you that me and my fellow workers were not "low productivity" workers.

That was the same quote that struck me in the article referenced by OBE.

In this struggling economy, I don't think the rosy picture of "it's just teenagers earning spending money" applies. I look at the faces of the workers at my local Taco Bell and McDonalds'... they aren't "low productivity" teens. Many are in their 30's and a few are 40 or older (judging from their appearance.) Competition for jobs is high enough that many people with degrees have been pretending to have only some college experience in order to get some wage that puts some food on the table.

Food banks here in North Texas are serving double the number of people (according to a report I heard yesterday on NPR) as in previous years; many of those are struggling professionals who have been "downsized" and are desperate for anything.

Although I'm not often in favor of government mandates, I remember the times (personally) before the minimum wage standard... when it was okay to pay 25 cents/hour to someone because ... well... there was always someone out there (homeless, unemployed) who would work for 25 cents per hour while the business made hundreds of dollars per hour off their labor ("sweatshops," they were called.)

In this competitive economy, if someone's "low productivity" they are often fired for one reason or another and someone else hired in their place -- at least that seems to happen here in North Texas.

Can't speak from direct knowledge about the rest of the economy.

So -- based on what I see around here and who's working those jobs, I am NOT in favor of lowering the minimum wage. Not at all.

(edited to add that I *have* worked for minimum wage. I am looking over the employment listings at the university where I'm a graduate student, and many of the jobs available to me are ONLY minimum wage. Teaching assistant jobs are only going to students of that department -- and my department has no TA job openings. I'm considering several minimum wage jobs since it's a 120 mile round trip to get to school (and the price of books is rather outrageous and they raised the tuition on me.))

[edit on 15-12-2009 by Byrd]

Sorry, but your arguments are flawed. We didnt just have the current system we have now, with minimum wage set up the way it is. Originally the taxes were different, with the only taxation being from the rich, since income at the time was defined as "money earned from investments", not money earned from the sweat of labor. After WWII the tax on the wealthy was about 90% i think. Close to it.

If you want to talk about wealth redistribution, talk about what has happened since then. When one man working in a factory could provide for a family of 7 or 8, and own a home and a car. What has been redistributed is the tax, and it was taken from the rich, where it belonged, as they were given the opportunity to become so on the backs of our society, and given to the poor, who could barely afford to pay bills already.

Now, i see people saying the majority of minimum wage jobs are small business.....i dont think walmart, mcdonalds, etc are "small business owners" by any means. They are massive corporations that make ludicrous profit. I have worked for minimum wage at one time...and it was probably one of the hardest jobs i had, prep chef for a grand ballroom, constant high speed drudgery, hours in the dish wash, cooking food, always either too hot or freezing. And Ive worked jobs where i literally sat on the internet playing games or blogging all night for 300$ a night sometimes.

Point is, the pay is NOT equal to the effort going into it. If you want to know where a minimum wage has increased the standard of living, perhaps ask the people of venezuela or bolivia.

I would imagine that when our nation was fighting to limit the work day to 8 hours, and 5 days for full time, that even then people on the right were saying how unfair it was to the workers, that we would be cutting their pay. We can see how misguided that is, and i think the change to a 40 hour work week has worked out for the best.

The problem is that taxes lay to heavy on small business while large corporations receive massive subsidy. Our whole system is set up to prop up large business on the taxpayers dollar, while limiting any competition from new business. This is largely due to the fact that corporate dollars buy legislation. In our country you have as much freedom as you can afford, and big pharma, aggro, oil, etc can afford ALOT of freedom.

If the people could make any difference, all the protections should be stripped from the large corporations...they dont need it, they already got there and should now be allowed to succed or fail on their own merit. The tax breaks should be given to small and new business....they more than any corporation try to help and support the workers belonging to them. And then they could better afford to hire more people.

No you cant just change the minimum wage, you must change the system, Just like in the medical reform, you cant just give it to everyone free, you must also change tort reform, and educational costs, or it will never work. Unfortunately, as i said, we are not the people in power, and those WITH power have agendas that are at odds with the populace.

Just thought I'd stick my head in with an alternative arguement:

Furthermore, no employer should be allowed to unreasonably profit by exploiting the lack of negotiating power of low-wage workers. The free market fails to set a fair price when one side holds all the bargaining chips. In another context, this is why laws exist against monopolies. If only one supplier supplies a good, it can charge more than the good is worth because the purchaser is powerless to obtain it elsewhere. Low-wage workers are in the opposite position of the monopolist. They lack the skills that command higher wages, but, because they need to work to survive, they cannot withhold their labor from the market. The monopolist can set the price at almost whatever level it wants, while the low-wage worker must take almost whatever is offered for his or her labor. Minimum wages exist for the same reason that laws against monopolies existthey deal with situations in which the market fails to set fair prices.

www.epi.org...

I believe this is a fair assertion to make.

I still would like to see someone on here who earns minimum wage tell us if they'd like it lowered.

Especially in this job market where you have so many over-qualified workers doing minimum wage jobs to keep food on the table. Yeah, your spose might still make $70K a year, but now you're making $11K, not $50K.....and trying to avoid foreclosure and still celebrate Christmas.

This is all pretty funny. Like we lower or get rid of minimum wage and the theory is that employers could afford to hire more workers. Albeit at a lesser wage but a lesser wage is better than no earnings at all right?

Kind of like rationing and lessening the quality of healthcare so that everyone can get it. It's okay to have to wait 6 months to get that lump in your scrotum looked at because now we all have to wait six months rather than some waiting indefinitely and others getting checked out immediately.

Seems like if you support one you'd have to support the other yet the two loudest sides have picked one over the other.

Either way the very rich, the ones so many love to hate, wont care because in a world of average wages covering everyone or average healthcare covering everyone they'll still be able to hire the best at a premium and seek out the best healthcare at a premium.

this is why i think fox news is so stupid. they say the stupidist things. if lower wage is so good then lower the wage of every fox employee. lets see how they respond to that.

Has anyone on this site ever owned a business? To argue that the minimum wage is a good thing - is TOTALLY anti Capitalism & anti Free Market. Why not promote Communism while we're at it?

I worked for minimum wage for 25 yrs. Thats right - 25 yrs!!! For you brainiacs out there who no NOTHING about economics:
1) Every time they raised the minimum wage, my income went DOWN!
2) Every time they raised the minimum wage- I lost co-workers
3) Every time they raised the minimum wage - less people came out to eat because they passed the cost onto the consumer.

Minimum wages HURT workers. Period. 99% of all people making minimum wage make tips or it is a second job or it is a transitional job.

Lets study econmics and stop LOOKING to the Government for support. Here on ATS I think most people agree that there is a conspiracy between the bankers & the politicians to create a One World Order and eliminate the free market that has allowed the USA to prosper and provide more freedom than any country in history.
Its no wonder they can so easily pull this off when even the men/women who see their diabolical plans and s/b VERY untrusting of Gov't, are crying
out for the GOVERNMENT to regulate wages because they are worried about someone who has more than them. They are laughing at us! As they should.

reply to post by Janky Red


Cute use of Latin there, but mine is actually factual to your post.

Your post was pure ad homenim based on you attacked the person and not the argument, proof being the Elite/Eligere label you have placed onto me, the er duhhhh and other quips of lackluster wit.

See, I too, can do as you.

Whereas I make no contentions to know your status in life, you have directly made an assumption knowing that I am a supposed Elite.

Now you bring in China's hourly wage market rate. Fine. I'm going to go with it, but still haven't found where you produced this number from but it is no mater. $.38/hour is what I am presuming.

Problem is, that hamburger getting flipped isn't flipped in China and then shipped over here. The maid, cleaning a room in a hotel, doesn't fly from China to clean the room then go home.

Manufacturing jobs, at least what is left of it in this country all pay over the minimum wage and in most cases, mush more than the minimum wage.

Here....just in case Source If you didn't go there, the average hourly wage of someone in a manufacturing job is ~$18.00/hour

The minimum wage does not effect those people, nor those products directly. It does however directly effect small business owners who are selling items at a 2-5% profit margin because they are forced to pay a higher wage to someone that is doing an unskilled job. They are forced to hire less workers and carry less benefits lest they go out of business and then provide NO jobs at all.

Mind you...majority of minimum wage jobs are paid to part-time workers between the ages of 16-24 and are single.

Originally posted by EsSeeEye
This thread makes me both laugh and cry at the ignorance.

My only question would be: If minimum wages are good, why not just raise it to $10 an hour? Why not $20? Why not mandate that everyone in the country makes $100 an hour?

You're right, it's not that easy, but it sure sounds like it should be when people say "Someone doesn't like the minimum wage? They must hate poor people!!" then point nothing out about how to fix it.

Ignorance.

(For the record, my fix? Abolish the minimum wage altogether.)

The minimum wage should be somewhere between $10 and $20 Hr. I think $15 is about right.

Only reason people will work for $8/hr is because they have no other choice. Taking advantage of folks because they have no other choice is expoltation. The minimum wage should reflect what is required to mantain a moderate existence. A moderate existence means decent shelter, decent food, decent healthcare, communications, and transportation if neccesary. It should also include enough to provide some level of savings. Any employer that does pay sufficiently to cover these costs is exploiting workers and should lose their right to employ workers.

I know such a tough stance would require a huge adjustment for the economy. Prices of everything would have to rise dramatically. However if done right, wages and salaries could rise enough to cover these increases and also bring all workers up to the moderate existence standard.

Then we would have to work on curbing inflation going forward. For one, with everyone making more money, tax revenues would rise significantly. More workers doing well would cut down on welfare costs. It would now be easier to implement a strict fully funded national budget. This would ease any inflationary tendecies. Next you go to flat interest rates. Fed rate of 1% forever. Control lending through capital requirements instead of changing interest rates.

It all can be done to bring us into economic stabality, can be done with minimum damage, but it will require a huge change in the way we thonk about things. Exploiting workers is the American way.

As if the gap between those who have and those who have not isn't big enough already. People can say what they want, but here is what I believe causes unemployment to go up when minimum wages increase...

Company X

$10,000/hr in income from sales or services
-$1,450 for 200 workers @ $7.25/hr
$ 8,550
-$5,000/hr for all non-labor operating expenses
$3,000/hr profit for single owner business/company

Business Owner: "Uh Oh...Minimum wage increased to $8/hr...that's going to cut into my profit...sooo...."

$10,000/hr in income from sales or services
-$1,448 for 181 workers @ $8/hr
$ 8,552
-$5,000/hr for all non-labor operating expenses
$3,002/hr profit for single owner business/company

Business Owner: "There! Remaining laborers got their raise. They will have to work harder to make up for the loss of manpower but they can't gripe since they got a raise. With my actions I obeyed the law, saved the company some money and got a small pay raise myself...YEP! Its gonna be a great Christmas..."

That's my take on it. Of course the numbers and company are all hypothetical but I am sure that you can get the idea.

reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s


Whoa I wanna know what single business owner is making 3k/hour, employing minimum wage workers.....Im in the wrong line of work.

Sorry have to play up the elite label I have been aptly given.

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by Janky Red

 

The minimum wage does not effect those people, nor those products directly. It does however directly effect small business owners who are selling items at a 2-5% profit margin because they are forced to pay a higher wage to someone that is doing an unskilled job. They are forced to hire less workers and carry less benefits lest they go out of business and then provide NO jobs at all.

Mind you...majority of minimum wage jobs are paid to part-time workers between the ages of 16-24 and are single.

You have no clue as to what you are talking about. No business can survive at a 2-5% profit margin! I own a retail store and I will tell you what having to pay someone a min wage increase does not hurt the profit that bad.

Minimum wage makes it so other hourly wages go up also to compete for better employees.

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s

 

Whoa I wanna know what single business owner is making 3k/hour, employing minimum wage workers.....Im in the wrong line of work.

Sorry have to play up the elite label I have been aptly given.

I hear ya!

Like I said tho those were numbers I pulled out of thin air to show an idea/example of how the first place most businesses or companies look to cut costs are the wage slaves instead of all the highers ups making more in a week then 10 of the laborers make in a day. I should not have to prove it with links since anyone not living on a deserted island knows someone that this kind of thing has happened to. Its not always the case, I realize, since sometimes company income can drop and such. But even then why not look to lower the income of those that have already made enough to live comfortably for the next ten lifetimes? Greed!

[edit on 15-12-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Its a extreme example I know. My bad and I wasn't trying to get away with anything. Just got lazy near the end of the reply.

Don't assume that because I miss-stepped on that, that I know nothing.

reply to post by ch1ldofthe70s


Yeah I know. I was just dreaming of being that guy...oh wait, if I were making that money I wouldn't be employing minimum wage workers......haha

Good example though.

Well it is good for workers, because when the minimum wage goes down, employers are more likely to hire people, which as you know creates a helluva lot of jobs. So Fox is right.

reply to post by infolurker



Because you can't work if you dont' have childcare. In my area, childcare is 350 a week. for one child.

Which is more then what you would make working a week of minimum wage.


[edit on 15-12-2009 by nixie_nox]

reply to post by kingoftheworld


And you still will find yourself with less money to feed a family, pay bills, be forced to have private medical insurance by government mandate and never will be able to own a home.

You still don't get the picture, is the cost of living what is killing the work force on minimum wages.

A minimum wage that fails to meet the cost of living is actually a hidden subsidy for business that ultimately hurts the business.

When the minimum wage fails to meet the cost of living, then the government must provide the difference in food, rent and healthcare subsidies that are paid for with taxes. When business owners fail to pay workers what the workers need to survive, then the workers are faced with three options: get another job and lose family time, which leads to latchkey kids and gangs of unsupervised teenagers; go on welfare and become a drain on society; go outlaw.

The solution is relatively simple: cap wealth at one billion dollars, period. When your wealth hits that level you are economically retired. You want to continue? Fine, but your pay is zero, your stock shares are changed to a new class of non-appreciating shares. If the share price goes up, those can't. They would be frozen at the price it was when you hit the limit. If they go down you can play again.

Anyone who thinks billionaires are inherently smarter than everyone else has only to look at the employee suggestion box to realize that most of the really good cost-savings, productivity ideas come from the people who actually do the work, the ONLY cost-saving ideas corporate management ever has is to reduce the labor force and demand more from the survivors, which led us to the mess we are in.

Minimu wage should be whatever it takes to support a family of three on 24 hours of work per week.

Why a family of three?

Because that is the minimum required to truly support the notion of "family values". A single person or a couple is not a family. A child is the absolute requirement to constitute a famliy in a societal sense. Whatever your minimum wage is it must be sufficient for the single wage earner to support the child and the child-rearer without resorting to criminal activity or government subsidies. The formula should be average cost per square foot of living space per week, average cost of quality calories for family of three per week, average cost government-required insurances, living items (clothing, for instance, since you can't opt for nude) required to be acceptable in society. A single person should be able to accumulate enough to start family in the first place.

Why 24 hours per week?

Because we live in a far more complex world that requires far more continuing education, far more research on a daily basis: which health insurance, car insurance, death insurance is the best for my family; which foods are acually dangerous to eat; which medicine causes what side effects; there are many more.

There are only so many hours per week, and more importantly, there is a limit on how much energy the human brain and body have available at any given time. We have study after study of the negative health consequences of chronically depriving a person of sufficient sleep, and we are being forced into it earlier and earlier:

kidshealth.org...
www.sleepdex.org...
www.sciencedaily.com...
www.time.com...
hbr.harvardbusiness.org...

It should not be that difficult to figure out the minimum number of hours required to live a healthy life, fulfill those duties demanded of responsible citizenship, and see what time is left for business. My calculations work out to leaving 24 hours a week to earn a living after fulfilling the minimum requirements necessary to exist as a legally responsible adult in our society.

Capping wealth at the top end and paying a living wage at 24 hours a week on the bottom would solve most of the problems in our society without materially harming anyone. Some egos would be frustrated, and some sterotypes popped, but overall we would have more jobs, healthier, happier people, better socialized children, and lower crime rates.

reply to post by marg6043


And I get all of that, but we have to look to the biggest picture involved: "Why is our money worth so little now"? 5 dollars an hour can not support a family now, but it used to be able to. Inflation is killing our economy, and the roots of inflation for American Currency is in the Federal Reserve. They just will not cease printing money, which is why minimum wage can't do all of the things you mentioned. We need to cut the middle man out.