Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Yes again I concur. However it is unfair to say the way Christianity presents itself. Christianity is an ideal, one which has like all large centers of power, been hijaked by men for their own reasons. Im sure you agree there are plenty of good Christians out there, indeed its a testament to Jesus' character that despite the corruption of the churches built in his name that the message of the holy spirit can still reach people who are truly faithful.

Also to qualify I am not accusing ALL clergy of being corrupt or deliberately misrepresenting God, I am merely saying it is not as simple as being able to place your trust in these men without question.

I agree, I was using a generalization there because I am mostly among people who know that when I say "Christians", I don't mean each and every one, and I am only talking about it based on the "mainstream" image. I can't blame innocent people for the actions of others, and don't mean to in anyway.

When it's a thread that is based on "Bashing Christians", I usually stick up for them in the same manner.

Pretty much applies to anykind of collectivism, which is also what racism is. I just say "Christians" in the mainstream way as a way of saving space.

I'm waiting for the rest of your response before digging in. But wanted to clear this part up quick.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

Can you explain to me in your own words why you feel we need a Messiah? What is there to do that we shouldnt have to do ourselves? Do you think God leads a mission for a special people and a special land? Do you think God really is worried about a separate 12 tribes of people and a Earthly land?

No but you have to understand the Messiah concept originated as a PROMISE from God to the Jews specifically. As a believer in God would you have me think that God would not keep his promise ?

Why I feel personally we need a Messiah, is because someone must lead, that is the way of things, people cannot be trusted to just do the right thing on their own in this day and age. We could argue about why until the cows come home, but the bottom line is to fix this we will need a great and wise leader to bring the people together and establish a working solution.

Im sure you sense that I dont lean towards the idea that God needs anything of Earth, and God would of never told men to take anothers land, especially through force. But if you have something that might make me rethink this I am willing to at least here it from someone not quoting a book *smiles*

If you are talking about the current state of Israel. It does not fufill the edicts of the promised return and therefore is invalid so I cant stand up for it (though I do have family there). The jews were not meant to take control of Israel again unless ALL the nations of earth agreed to it. They dont even need to be in control of it, there where plenty of Jews living there before the modern state was created. That said there are examples in the Bible (OT) of the Jews being told to take over land by force (Jericho for example), but as a rule the Jews are not supposed to take land through militant means since the Exile was imposed.

In your own understandings....do you think the Jews were right and God told them to worry about such minute things? Such Earth bound things?

At the time they where very worried about such things, and the solution was revealed to them through the prophets, a promise was made, it is expected to be kept. The Jews themselves are humans of course they are worried about earth bound things, God didnt tell them to be, but it was something that occupied their prayers, it is only natural. It is also only one of MANY conditions that where prophised about the Messiahs mission.

From my experience, God helps us cope, adjust, find contentment, gives comfort....I just dont sense that God is worried about a land here on Earth or a certain people above anyone else. I will be honest ...I think the pride of the people that took that land and killed others for it is still lingering and God didnt have a hand in leading such ways.

I hope that ive shown at this point that this isnt the case. The Jews as a people have suffered persecution for a VERY long time, it is a recurring act through history, just as it is their duty to act as a light for the nations, it is also their duty to act as a scapegoat, knowing that ultimately they will be protected for their faith. You will not find another culture which has survived for such a length of time through scatterings across many lands, and yet still identifies so closely with itself across the world. Though there are others which are following in the footsteps.

As I also said Israel is not just the physical land, it is the spirit of the people itself. The modern state of Israel is a Zionist state put in place for reasons not holy, what else can I say Im not here to defend the Zionists.

I see an evolving happening....similar to what some describe as the Christ Consciousness.....I would rather call it the 'Comforter'....but something is happening in the world today, its like there is a people born with this 'feeling' that the mainstream way does not sit 'well with the soul'. And these people are finding that online, they can share with others a joy in knowing a unconditional love that over powers all things they have ever known. Interesting times it is! Im just not a 'end of the world' person or 'Jesus will come with force and make everyone change' or 'judgment will be held even to those that had no reasons to believe in anything, for they were only comfortable with their logical mind'......which is when I go back to thinking....God had to of made more then one way as well as God has to be very understanding of what this world does to a soul and how our minds work with our senses to 'know' what we feel is reality.

I like to think of it as God waking up. People can come to a realization on their own, but equally there are those who need help. I think we are asking a bit much if you expect God to go "well theyve been pretty naughty, but enough of that *click* everyone Christ Conscious Power".

But will we be shown the way when we get lost in the darkness (as is happening now), of course, the Creators love and forgiveness is eternal so he will help us in the ways best for us to learn from our mistakes and move on from them (on every level of our lives).

Dont get me wrong....I think we defiantly need leaders and others to weigh and measure our own stance and ways....but do you look at this Messiah as someone that is 'saving' us from our sins and forcing a new world order here that revolves around a Earth based land? Why would a perfect God come for just a certain type of people?

You wiegh too much stock on the concept of Israel, honestly dont worry about it. Even IF it means physically being given the land, it would only be truly valid if the world was at such a stage as they would say, Israel is the holy land and all who live their will be the priests of the lord, that would be good fufillment of the prophecy (for example). The Jews would return and in an ideal world take up their roles of fufilling the Mitzvat and acting as an example of holyiness for others to see, doing such on behalf of the rest of the world who choose to spend their time on more material things. For me it doesnt even have to mean that, but from the traditional jewish viewpoint it does so I'll leave it at that.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Originally posted by gYvMessanger

that there are actually four ways in Judaism, after all...... Jesus is Jewish. Would it be fair for me to question why the Holy Spirit hasn't put it into your heart to learn..... such simple things about Jesus? No, it wouldn't.

Sorry to butt in, but there are 72 ways to read the same piece of scripture, according to Jewish tradition.

Your not butting in. In fact, your thoughts are very welcome.

I'm familiar with the 72 names of God, but I was specifically referring to the PARDES levels of interpretation; P'shat, Remez, D'rash & Sud (literal, hint, concept, mystical/secret).

Yes sorry I realized later you meant literally. Though Ill point out for those who may not know that even within each of those ways there are multiple paths.

Its scary how much is in the Torah when you know how to look for it (not that I proclaim to know all the ways intimately).

With regards to 72 ways of reading the Torah it seems I was wrong, the Chabad information sites claim significantly more than that. I thought I was qouting something I read from Rabbi Kaplans work on the Sefer Yetzirah but I cant find it in question.

Chabad.org claims 600,00 permutations for each way of reading. Normally I would say this is just a way to say "a lot" but with people obsessed with numbers (as the Lubavitch are) I would guess the numbers are significant.



[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Okay.

This thread is titled "Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus."

I would like to show how God's anointed one comes to live inside the disciple, as the Son of Man. I'm talking secret, spiritual things, of the highest order.

People who practice Judaism know that before the Messiah comes, Elijah must come first. A glass of wine is even set out for him at the Passover Seder and at one point, little children open the door to invite him in.

People who practice Christianity are taught that John the Baptist is the forerunner to the Messiah.

Most Christians are either looking for the rapture to happen or the Second Coming. Most of the Judaic faith don't believe Jesus is the anointed Messiah.

In the late 80's, when I was a young mother, I had a waking vision of John the Baptist. It doesn't bother me to talk of the things that happened before it or the things since, but this one vision was almost (but not quite) a game changer. Not so much that it opens Pandora's box, but that it opened up the door to the possibility, that there could be something to the Judaic theme of there being two Messiahs.

There are some in Judaism, who feel that there will be a Messiah from the tribe of Judah, from the line of King David. They also believe, that one will come from the tribe of Ephraim, from the line of Joseph. But what I find even more interesting is the theme of two Messiahs, found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, out of Qumran. More likely than not, the scrolls were written by a group called the Essenes, who had issues with things such as blood sacrifice (sort of like LeoVirgo does). They too believed there would be two Messiahs - A Royal one, from the tribe of Judah and a Priestly one, whose lineage will be traced all the way back to Aaron. In both cases, Jesus can be linked with the tribe of Judah. John the Baptist, however, cannot be linked to the tribe of Ephraim but he is easily linked to the tribe of Levi, on his Fathers side, and all the way back to the daughters of Aaron on his Mother's side. Also, the rituals of the Essenes are very similar to those of Christianity.

One of the scrolls found is titled 'Messianic Banquet,' and what is so interesting is the order they take their seats at this dinner. The implication being, the Priestly Messiah is of a higher order than the Royal Messiah. Then factoring in things that Jesus said of John - and John said of Jesus really opens up the door to Jesus saying that John the Baptist is "more than a prophet."

John is the forerunner to the bridegroom Messiah. His father, sang that John would be called a prophet of the Most High and that he would go on before the Lord to prepare the way before him. But most people probably think John's work was done. But it's not.

Before going back to Elijah and Jesus' visits, I want you guys to help me exhaust what Jesus said about John being more than a prophet. What do you guys think that means? I know there are Kings, Priests & Prophets. There are also servants of God and messengers.

But how are these ranked?

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Your knowledge may be just the thing I need since you seem to know about Kabbalah. Sometimes I feel like I'm the lone person out, always talking about union with God, the divine spark of God and the mystical Son of Man. In my case, I experienced all these things and had no knowledge of Kabbalah. But these are real things that have and are happening to me.

Divine union creates the Son of Man. The Son of Man becomes the new teacher and prooves Jesus is everything he claimed. Jesus died in the manner he did because it not only teaches about but replicates the resurrection of Jesus/Yahveh inside us. I'm not just pulling these things out of thin air, I know these things are sacred truths - things hidden from long ago.

When we lift up the Son of Man, inside us, then we know Jesus is the one.








[edit on 24-12-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Yes and No Ill qualify this a bit more in a minute. When Jews talk about the returning of the Lost Tribes, it is generally taken to mean that all the 12 tribes of Jews (most of which are lost to the exile) will return to Israel (the land). However it is open to massive interpretation and the details of what it means will vary depending on the sect you are speaking to. Certainly it is possible that through inter-marrige the lost tribes will be revealed to now be Christians and / or Muslims, Israel could very well be taken to mean a spiritual state of being rather than the land. Additionally there is of course the old family ties between the Jews and the Muslims because of Isaac and Ishmael. The relationship between the Jews and the Muslims is very complicated and there is no way I could do it justice in summary here.

Well, isn't Israel the combination of gods? I really don't see how the 12 tribes can ever come back to the physical land of Israel, and I also don't see why it would matter. I find the fighting over land to be silly honestly.

Now this is where I wanted to qualify the statement above. The returning of the Lost Tribes and the world coming to the worship of the One God is seen as seperate events. Why ? Because certainly there are people out there who are not Jews, and of course they are loved by God and deserve to know of this and to find spiritual understanding of their own. It is well known that Jews do not seek converts, why is this ? Some people will tell you it is because they are arrogant, that they consider themselves "The Chosen" of God and they look down on the Gentiles, but what people dont understand is what the Jews consider themselves "The Chosen" for.

Not seeking converts is good. When people seek to convert others, they are only doing so to indoctrine those people into their traditions. You can't force understanding onto others. As Jesus says, turns them into a child of hell(ignorant/blind). Big gripe I have with Christians - as did Jesus with the Pharisees. In fact, when I see those verses I wonder how can Christians justify their convert missionaries.

I do not think the gentiles should have been given things at all btw. And it is for the reason above. They are in most cases unable to see past the literal, they worship idols, and other things of a "Blind" nature. Giving those things to the Gentiles did more harm than good. Jesus told them not to do such a thing for a reason - although Paul magically missed that message.

And it is not to be mean, or to be put above others. I don't think of "Jews" in terms of race/bloodlines either, and same for Gentiles. I think of it as more of a mindset/spiritual, than physical. And from what I can see of the OT, "Jews" represented the mindset of understanding, where as the Gentiles represent the mindset of authority. And by "Jew", I mean those with understanding, such as Hosea, David, John and Jesus etc. Where as I would consider the Pharisees that Jesus dealt with and such to be Gentile converts who still called themselves Jews.

I consider when the Jews wanted to be a nation as the start of that conversion. They IMO turned their back on the father at that time. That was they day they left "Israel", and they have IMO been trying to replace it with physical land.

Please feel free to smack me down about this. I learn best when mistakes are corrected. I am interested in it, and this is just how I have come to see it/make sense. While I am not a Christian, I know for certain that what Jesus says is true - because that is what I was taught by the father. History/Religion I was not taught.

There is a story told that before the world was created God approached all the spirits who would become the nations of the world, and to each in turn he asked if they would be willing to fufill all the Mitzvah (613 commandments of human kindness) in the Torah, to act as a guide for those seeking to draw closer to god, for good and for ill as an example in hardship and in bounty so that the whole world would see that the Lord will look after those who wish to know him, if they stay true in faith and understanding. The ones who agreed are the ones who would become Jews.

Yes, this is what I was talking about before with the mindset. I still see it as that way, rather than bloodlines and so forth.

However, I do not know about the 613 commandments thing. This is a place when I agree with Jesus. I believe there is a difference between the laws of men, and the laws of god. The laws of god can be understood in the manner of - love one another as yourself. And from that we get the commandments that are of god.

The rest fall into laws of men/traditions. They are in some cases a good idea, and in others cases they aren't, or the times have long passed. But the ones that are true and stand the test of time in understanding are the ones based on the philosophy of the above, and those I find very much to be of god. All those things are along the lines of - can't live in a world without theft if you are a theif etc.

This was IMO the purpose of Jesus and his teachings. To show men the difference and how to follow god's laws through example/understanding. Jesus was pretty good about showing the insanity of some of it, as well as the selective choice of the pharisees(which showed deeper things).

Simply put the Covenant between the Jews and God is that the Jews will act as the priesthood for the world, the Jews do not believe that the whole world needs to fufill all the commandments, because that is too much, humans where created to fufill their purpose and it is not the purpose of every man to spend every hour of their lives in holy ritual.

I don't agree with any ritual in the sense. This is not to say that doing certain things aren't important, but when you get into ritual ceremonies and such, the ceremony takes over the importance of the reason for it to begin with. There is a "spirit/purpose" to things, and that "spirit/purpose" is the important thing.

I don't think the Jews need to fulfill all those commandments either. I think what happened was a bunch of laws by men got thrown onto it. The commandments of god are all with good reason.

I also don't see how the Jews can really in any sense be considered the Priesthood of the world because of those extra commandments. If we get into where "Jew" means those with understanding, and would be people like John, Jesus, Hosea etc, then I can see where yes that is true. But as far as "Jews" as a religion or race - I don't see it.

I don't think when Hosea says in Hosea 6 that those who have trangressed the convent is talking about someone who planted their crops wrong. He is talking about murder and things of that nature - god's commandments.

There are Seven Laws which the nations of the earth need to follow in order for the idea of universal understanding of God to have been fufilled. These are called the Seven Noahide Laws:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

#4 I don't know much about honestly. It was never something that came up in my understanding. But I do not know if that is because I'm not gay, thus not an issue or otherwise. In the end, I can only think it's something that is between that person and god. But, I think there is validity when people take things into excess and get to the point where they are hurting others in order to get it. And that can happen with sexual desires most easily. Such is the nature of addiction.

#7 is a tricky thing IMO. Government is by it's nature evil. However, I think I agree with founders of the US in that it is a necessary evil - due to the evil that exists on this earth. I am very much however in favor of separation of church and state. Because it protects religion. I do not think that I could in anyway be apart of government. IMO, to kill the man who killed is 2 sins, not 1. I do not think such would exist in a society without sin - only in a society with evil.

It is acceptable for the nations of the world to have their own "religions" as long as they recognise the ultimate truth and the laws above are present. Indeed it is to be expected that Torah will be revealed to people in ways that they will be able to understand it.

Well, I think it's that pretty much all religions/societies are based on the same basic understandings. Murder is murder all around the world. It just gets justified in society because "they are different" with wars and such. But murder when understood as murder is bad etc.

Yet, I still do not see the purpose in all those extra laws. It reminds me of the parable with Jesus and why he was so strict about his disciples. He talked/said - what will people say of the man who starts to build a house, but never finishes it? So, why would all these extra laws, which are basically impossible to follow be there?

People say Jesus was sin free, but if you wanted to apply all those laws to him, then he couldn't have been. And if he couldn't do it, then I honestly don't know who could. Even David was not sin free - but when it talks about mistakes it is always of those which are the 10 commandments.

I don't get it. Can you show me the understanding/reason behind it?

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
I come to a similar conclusion, it is also why "the hard way" is now sadly the most likely way, because by my mind the only way the norm is going to be people who approach truely the way of Jesus and other great holy men is for a lot of the current cancer to be cut away.

Of course we can still get a big miracle, at any time God can choose to give us "the easy way" if we prove worthy, but sadly every day that passes it seems we are less and less deserving.

Oh, I think we've already seen much of "the hard way". I do not think of it as these 2 ways are yet to come, but rather these 2 ways are experienced on a daily basis.

I think what it really boils down to is what will it take before people wake up. What has to happen before people start to seek things further, before they start to see the manipulation.

I base this on myself. 3 years ago I was an atheist/agnostic. 8 years ago, I was completely blind and believed the manipulation. It was not until things got to be extremely obvious that I "woke up". It was all a matter of what it took before I woke up.

Once I started to see the manipulation, then the rest came in time. I first saw the manipulation in politics. This causes me to rethink what I had come to believe(USA is great, never does wrong, etc - I'm former military even). After you start to see the manipulation, then the ugliness really starts to show. And I mean really ugly. You start to see each and every lie. When you know something is not true, and you see them spin it as truth - oh boy that will wake up quick.

And then after finding the father, I started to see the same thing in religion. The manipulation and lies etc.

But 1 thing lead to another. Many people are still starting to wake up to that first part as far as I can tell.

In terms of the bible, revelation is really talking about a time when people start to see the truth. The destruction everyone fears and thinks is all bad/crazy - that is just what happens to bring it about. And those things have been going on for 2000+ years. Just going to be a building up and building up until it gets to the point when the obvious is staring at people. Then they will wake up.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Well there undeniably different levels of spirituality that is achievable by any given person. And people in a position such as Jesus was are at a very high state indeed, and the ultimate position which we are discussing in this topic would certainly be the pinnacle of such levels. As you say its not that these are out of our reach entirely, but they arent easy to achieve, some people are born that way or gifted at some time in their life in order to act as a light for others.

Different lessons for different people is the way I see it. I see things in that in the end, all are equal. In the meantime, it's just a matter of a difference in timing before some things were understood. It is the journey back that is the point.

My personal story regarding my changing relationship with the divine is probably interesting enough to be worth a telling here at some point, but I'm not inclined to derail the topic further with that and I'm too tired so ill skip. Maybe at a later date. I have absolute faith in the creator, but in a different way to most people. We have a relationship but it can get rocky at times, I have failed myself in many ways as well which strains things at times, at the moment is not one of my best times in terms of spiritual involvement, not in traditional terms anyway.

You are probably being harder on yourself than needed. Especially if you think you need to keep all those traditions and laws. The 10 commandments aren't that hard to keep IMO.

Yes and No, I wouldnt say it was because of prolonged experience with local level Rabbi's (I live in England for the record). I have spent a lot of time reading a lot of different spiritual literature, which includes extensive jewish literature and as I am a born jew I was able to speak with various Rabbis (via the net, forums, websites etc) on a fairly open level about fairly closed topics.

However I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit, and I have experienced things which have given me absolute faith in the existence of the creator and its closeness to everything. Equally I have grown massive disdain for organized religion (another topic in itself), this brings abouts confusion as to how to act, though I also fail at the things I am not confused about (such as acceptable behaviour in thought and word).

I have faith that if I continue searching, then in time I will be given the information that I need, and I will know it when it is recieved.

I dont believe the Jews have all the answers, certainly they have lost their way (in their own way), but they have a lot of old knowledge which is worth studying, if only to help keep "a holy frame of mind". This has to be studied with care though as Rabbinical Jewdiasm is the heir to the Pharisee's, and the laws / interpretations of man are not the truth just because a lot of people agree on them.

Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

My best advice. But there is 1 other quote from the NT.

Revelation 2: 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Now, again I don't think of this as being "Jews" in terms of race, but rather those with understanding. And I see those without understanding as being those who call themselves Jews, but really aren't.

And that also applies to Christians and basically all religions. I find there is an element within religions that have understanding(Jews in this case), and those who don't(Gentiles in this case). Again, it's the mindset.

I think that is what you are seeing and is your problem with organized religion. It is what I see and is my problem with it. They claim to be Jews, but have no understanding, and like Jesus says - sit in the seat of Moses. They claim to be Christians, but they really don't understanding, they sit in the seat of Jesus etc.

Don't be confused - you are just seeing them by their fruits. There is a reason why you are seeing it, it's a sign of understanding.

I don't know the nature of what you consider to be bad in order to comment directly, don't need to know either. But the ultimate form of atonement is to repent for your sins, which translate out to fix your mistakes. The first step to doing that is to first know they are wrong. The only thing you can do from that point on is better. And if you change/fix those ways, then you are automatically forgiven for the past sins, as they are no longer an issue. You may feel the effects for awhile, but overall you are forgiven in terms of the father.

However, there is a difference in being sorry for doing something, and being sorry of getting caught, or the consequences. It does not do any good to say you are sorry, but then do it again. If one does that, then they have not really apologized for the sin, they have only apologized to try and minimize punishment.

If a man cheats on his wife and gets caught. Then he says he is sorry. But if he goes out and he does it again, then he was never sorry for what he did - he was only sorry he got caught. He did not ask for forgiveness, he asked for a blind eye.

A man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Address mistakes individually rather than looking at them in bulk. Then you can start to move the mountain.

I believe everyone has to keep the commandments, so I can't comfort you on this.

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Hello messanger! I hope you had great holidays. Sorry I am getting back to you late, just now getting back into regular routines again.

I appreciate your thoughts that you gave....even though not much of it resonates with me, its still shows where you are coming from in your faith.

Of course I would not expect anyone to think God wasnt going to fulfill a promise Thee has made...but I am just not so quick to assume such a promise was made. Through my relation, I have found no emphasis placed on a needed 'savior'. I do see we need leaders...but one leader is not enough. We learn things from a many people.

You said people cant be trusted to do things on their own in this day and age...but yet, this is what our purpose is...to reach a point we can do things through our own will because we understand it to be a productive way, not because God told us it was the way without expecting us to have understanding of 'why' it is a 'way'. If you see humans as not being ready to do such things through their own will...then we again will see another marker showing many not being ready.

You bank alot of faith in a promise from God that got passed on through many men, and yet you view some of the OT differently then what others do when talking about Israel. I would like to say I dont worry much about what is going to happen with Israel...but that is hard when many have lost their lives and many more will loose their lives...all relating to a promise by God for a holy land.

I think its the farthest thing from what is Holy when we are talking about a special Earthly land or a special people. I dont think Thee Most High has much to do with a special 12 tribes at all really. I dont think Thee Most High ever came with a message to just one people. To me, this is a huge red flag of someone misleading a mass of people. I dont see Thee Most High in much of the OT at all....I see a very carnal nature of a 'god image' that man would of thought to be god. I dont toss the entire OT out, I have studied it many times. It shows a great history of a people in that time and in that land. To me, what they believed in that time, makes a lot of sense when I look around the other cultures of that land and see the other common beliefs of that time. I see many cultures blending together in the OT.

But all just opinion....I do appreciate your thoughts, once again. I never would of assumed you took so much account of the OT by your other posts...very interesting though.

Peace to you and yours
LV

Ive been away for a few days please bare with me and Ill get around to sorting through the thread in a little while.

I should also point out Im not a traditional Jew nor do I necessarily agree with all the tenets Im just trying to give a traditional orthodox viewpoint of the situation.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Your knowledge may be just the thing I need since you seem to know about Kabbalah. Sometimes I feel like I'm the lone person out, always talking about union with God, the divine spark of God and the mystical Son of Man. In my case, I experienced all these things and had no knowledge of Kabbalah. But these are real things that have and are happening to me.

Divine union creates the Son of Man. The Son of Man becomes the new teacher and prooves Jesus is everything he claimed. Jesus died in the manner he did because it not only teaches about but replicates the resurrection of Jesus/Yahveh inside us. I'm not just pulling these things out of thin air, I know these things are sacred truths - things hidden from long ago.

Im not sure what the question was in that but yes the process of the rectification of the sparks would point towards what you are saying. I think part of the reason why Kabbalistic knowledge remained so horded in recent years amongst Jewish communities is because it leads to that type of understanding, therefore you are heavily indoctrinated against such thought before your allowed to study it (should be middle-aged, married, well versed in Torah and Talmud before being allowed to study it theoretically).

A very famous Rabbi died a few years ago, he was known to have been very wise in the ways of Torah and Kabbalah, it was thought amongst the community that this man had been told the name of the Messiah and it would be revealed by his line once he was dead. After he died they opened up the envelope with the name in it to find a piece of paper with one word written on it. "Yeshua".

Well, isn't Israel the combination of gods? I really don't see how the 12 tribes can ever come back to the physical land of Israel, and I also don't see why it would matter. I find the fighting over land to be silly honestly.

Combination of gods ? Well there are two ways to have this discussion, there is the viewpoint that is presented in the OT and there is the fragmants of history as seen outside of the Torah. I can happily discuss the translation of the pre-abrahamic religions into what is now the Jeudo-Christian-Islamic traditions but that is breaking from the bible quite heavily.

Ultimately I think its only natural for people to come to an understanding of the One True God, some would have it that even in the pagan times in the ancient days that there where mystery cults that would teach the One in Many mystery to initiates.

The fighting over land though yes its stupid, I said in my post to LV my opinion on the current land even if you believe the OT for literal truth (which is not what I'm saying as my view)

I consider when the Jews wanted to be a nation as the start of that conversion. They IMO turned their back on the father at that time. That was they day they left "Israel", and they have IMO been trying to replace it with physical land.

I think thats a very fair statement to be honest. You'll notice in the OT that there is no "Jews", there is a group of people who are called "Israelites" when the OT talks of Israel, it is almost always refering to the people, not to the land.

Early Jewdiasm was massively different to that practised today, what we have today is the result of the Pharisee movement.

However, I do not know about the 613 commandments thing. This is a place when I agree with Jesus. I believe there is a difference between the laws of men, and the laws of god. The laws of god can be understood in the manner of - love one another as yourself. And from that we get the commandments that are of god.

The Mitzvah are not so hard, most are very small things, and even most jews dont need to keep them all. Are they gods laws ? Are they mans ?

Deeper teachings say they are gods laws, that they are part of the process of raising the sparks. Like saying a blessing whilst washing your hands. Small acts of holyiness, recognising god and be thankful in all that you do.

The rest fall into laws of men/traditions. They are in some cases a good idea, and in others cases they aren't, or the times have long passed. But the ones that are true and stand the test of time in understanding are the ones based on the philosophy of the above, and those I find very much to be of god. All those things are along the lines of - can't live in a world without theft if you are a theif etc.

This was IMO the purpose of Jesus and his teachings. To show men the difference and how to follow god's laws through example/understanding. Jesus was pretty good about showing the insanity of some of it, as well as the selective choice of the pharisees(which showed deeper things).

The thing about the Jewish religion (as it is known now and since the time of the Pharisee), is it is designed and I mean really designed with purpose, to control peoples lives, to bring structure, and to enforce a certain type of sociological control. If you read the Torah objectively as well as other Jewish texts you would be able to see this with no problem.

So yes are there things that where hijacked in the name of spreading "the right word" certainly. Part of the problem with all religions even the older ones is that they priesthoods have always manipulated things for their own reasons. Sometimes with the right intentions but it leaves an aweful mess for us to clean up later.

I don't agree with any ritual in the sense. This is not to say that doing certain things aren't important, but when you get into ritual ceremonies and such, the ceremony takes over the importance of the reason for it to begin with. There is a "spirit/purpose" to things, and that "spirit/purpose" is the important thing.

I agree, Reb Nachman taught that when you say a prayer by rote that the demons all ready know the path it will take to heaven and therefore can intercept it easily, but if you say a prayer from the heart with fresh words then they will not see it coming.

I don't think the Jews need to fulfill all those commandments either. I think what happened was a bunch of laws by men got thrown onto it. The commandments of god are all with good reason.

I also don't see how the Jews can really in any sense be considered the Priesthood of the world because of those extra commandments. If we get into where "Jew" means those with understanding, and would be people like John, Jesus, Hosea etc, then I can see where yes that is true. But as far as "Jews" as a religion or race - I don't see it.

I would agree that they dont, but once they stop then they stop being "jews" and start being something else ("israelites" maybe ;-) ). Men have had their hands in religion since time immemorial. Tampering comes as part and parcel of that.

Jewish Law is unbelievably complex and mostly based on obscure interpretation of scripture built up over thousands of years, and you are quite right the laws of man are not the laws of god. There is indeed a difference between the 10 Commandments, the Mitzvah, and the various extended Laws of Jewdiasm.

#7 is a tricky thing IMO. Government is by it's nature evil. However, I think I agree with founders of the US in that it is a necessary evil - due to the evil that exists on this earth. I am very much however in favor of separation of church and state. Because it protects religion. I do not think that I could in anyway be apart of government. IMO, to kill the man who killed is 2 sins, not 1. I do not think such would exist in a society without sin - only in a society with evil.

I dont think the courts need to be tied into religion, but religion as a mark of the society in question should have some influence on the laws of the land. Or well in an ideal world, I'm not sure I would want leaders of our religions to have that power at all.

People say Jesus was sin free, but if you wanted to apply all those laws to him, then he couldn't have been. And if he couldn't do it, then I honestly don't know who could. Even David was not sin free - but when it talks about mistakes it is always of those which are the 10 commandments.

I think there has been some confusion, failing to keep the Mitzvah is not a sin, its more like a failure to produce light when you had the oppurtunity. A sin would be breaking one of the 10.

The rules in Leviticus are a creation of the Pharisee. They are not the Mitzvah.

The Mitzvah are the oppurtunities to raise your own spiritual level through observation of holyness. Their exact number and nature are disputed amongst the rabbis. They are not laws to recieve punishment should you slip up.

In terms of the bible, revelation is really talking about a time when people start to see the truth. The destruction everyone fears and thinks is all bad/crazy - that is just what happens to bring it about. And those things have been going on for 2000+ years. Just going to be a building up and building up until it gets to the point when the obvious is staring at people. Then they will wake up.

Shame we cannot star posts in this section anymore. We can only pray that they will indeed wake up, the alternative is too horrible to contemplate from what I can see.

Different lessons for different people is the way I see it. I see things in that in the end, all are equal. In the meantime, it's just a matter of a difference in timing before some things were understood. It is the journey back that is the point.

You are probably being harder on yourself than needed. Especially if you think you need to keep all those traditions and laws. The 10 commandments aren't that hard to keep IMO.

I agree that the point is entirely about the personal Journey. I do not measure myself against the tenets of any faith, but I know as of late I have been lacking, that is alright though, even having that understanding is an important part of the process.

Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

My best advice. But there is 1 other quote from the NT.

Revelation 2: 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Now, again I don't think of this as being "Jews" in terms of race, but rather those with understanding. And I see those without understanding as being those who call themselves Jews, but really aren't.

And that also applies to Christians and basically all religions. I find there is an element within religions that have understanding(Jews in this case), and those who don't(Gentiles in this case). Again, it's the mindset.

I think that is what you are seeing and is your problem with organized religion. It is what I see and is my problem with it. They claim to be Jews, but have no understanding, and like Jesus says - sit in the seat of Moses. They claim to be Christians, but they really don't understanding, they sit in the seat of Jesus etc.

Don't be confused - you are just seeing them by their fruits. There is a reason why you are seeing it, it's a sign of understanding.

Quoted for truth as they say. I always enjoy reading your thoughts on the subject, you seem to have an easy eloquence in regards the subject which I wish I shared.

Indeed in the terms of the topic at hand, that of the Messianic Kingdom, it would seem inevitable that the true "Children of Israel" / Keepers of the Covenant would be those who follow the spirit of God, not any given race of people, not those who pay lip service or happen to hold a position of power in a religion, but those with true love of god in their heart (including of course the true believing innocents of the religions).

I don't know the nature of what you consider to be bad in order to comment directly, don't need to know either. But the ultimate form of atonement is to repent for your sins, which translate out to fix your mistakes. The first step to doing that is to first know they are wrong. The only thing you can do from that point on is better. And if you change/fix those ways, then you are automatically forgiven for the past sins, as they are no longer an issue. You may feel the effects for awhile, but overall you are forgiven in terms of the father.

However, there is a difference in being sorry for doing something, and being sorry of getting caught, or the consequences. It does not do any good to say you are sorry, but then do it again. If one does that, then they have not really apologized for the sin, they have only apologized to try and minimize punishment.

If a man cheats on his wife and gets caught. Then he says he is sorry. But if he goes out and he does it again, then he was never sorry for what he did - he was only sorry he got caught. He did not ask for forgiveness, he asked for a blind eye.

A man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Address mistakes individually rather than looking at them in bulk. Then you can start to move the mountain.

I believe everyone has to keep the commandments, so I can't comfort you on this.

Yes there is no comfort to be had for me in regards my own failings, its just something that I need to be honest with myself about and rectify the past as best I can, ensuring not to repeat my misakes in the future.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


I'm not sure on where King fits into the rankings or even quite what you mean by rankings.

Are you talking about spiritual levels in kabbalistic terms ? i.e Messiah < Prophet < Ruach HaKodesh (Divinely Inspired) etc ?

Are you asking what King stands for Kabbalisticly ? It is normally used to represent the spirit of the people afaik. I will check.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Of course I would not expect anyone to think God wasnt going to fulfill a promise Thee has made...but I am just not so quick to assume such a promise was made. Through my relation, I have found no emphasis placed on a needed 'savior'. I do see we need leaders...but one leader is not enough. We learn things from a many people.

That is true and perhaps it is just that I have come to mistrust the workings of "democracy" that I see the solution coming in the form of one strong leader who the world can unite under. It does not mean that there wont be many people teaching the message, but in my view it does mean that the message remains strong and true because it comes from one source alone.

You said people cant be trusted to do things on their own in this day and age...but yet, this is what our purpose is...to reach a point we can do things through our own will because we understand it to be a productive way, not because God told us it was the way without expecting us to have understanding of 'why' it is a 'way'. If you see humans as not being ready to do such things through their own will...then we again will see another marker showing many not being ready.

I see it more that we need a helping hand to push people in the right direction. Along the way people should certainly come to the understanding on their own, however the world we live in today does everything it can to steep us in materialism and ignorance, even the sciences we are allowed to know are restricted with schooling limited to those with the money to pay for it.

You bank alot of faith in a promise from God that got passed on through many men, and yet you view some of the OT differently then what others do when talking about Israel. I would like to say I dont worry much about what is going to happen with Israel...but that is hard when many have lost their lives and many more will loose their lives...all relating to a promise by God for a holy land.

No I am merely pointing out the roots of the Messianic Concept. The Messiah that Jesus claimed to be was the jewish one who had to do x things. I thought I had been clear in my position on the land of Israel. The current land state could not be the promised land even IF you accept a literal translation, and I am personally quite happy to read it as an understanding of "a spiritual nation of israel".

I think its the farthest thing from what is Holy when we are talking about a special Earthly land or a special people. I dont think Thee Most High has much to do with a special 12 tribes at all really. I dont think Thee Most High ever came with a message to just one people. To me, this is a huge red flag of someone misleading a mass of people. I dont see Thee Most High in much of the OT at all....I see a very carnal nature of a 'god image' that man would of thought to be god. I dont toss the entire OT out, I have studied it many times. It shows a great history of a people in that time and in that land. To me, what they believed in that time, makes a lot of sense when I look around the other cultures of that land and see the other common beliefs of that time. I see many cultures blending together in the OT.

I would suggest if you dont see the creators presence in the OT then you are looking with very blinkered eyes. Remember the creator encompasses everything. One thing that amazes me is people who believe that God is only Love or Light or Goodness, of course the Lord is all those things but also so very much more, to say oh this is God but this is not, I think that is a very dangerous path to start going down. Better to try to understand somethings purpose than to deny it because it does not suite your tastes.

But all just opinion....I do appreciate your thoughts, once again. I never would of assumed you took so much account of the OT by your other posts...very interesting though.

I do and I dont, like you I have my personal relationship with god, but I try to see the other viewpoints as well, though sometimes the cosmological viewpoint in my head drives me a bit loopy trying to make sense of it all.

For me I see the Jewish religion as a good idea that went horribly horribly wrong. I am very wary of Jewish tradition because I know its designed with a certain purpose (I like to think with good intent) and that part of that purpose is to indoctrinate into the theology for the good of the continued religion, rather than for the glory of the father. So what to trust and what not to trust ?!? A hard question, unfortunately the secrets the jews have kept are like pieces of a puzzle, you need to know a lot of things that probably arent quite true, to get to those pieces which are.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Combination of gods ? Well there are two ways to have this discussion, there is the viewpoint that is presented in the OT and there is the fragmants of history as seen outside of the Torah. I can happily discuss the translation of the pre-abrahamic religions into what is now the Jeudo-Christian-Islamic traditions but that is breaking from the bible quite heavily.

I don't know if it is true or not, but it's supposed to be IS = Isis, Ra, El = Elohim. A trinity of sorts, which is common in religion.

Ultimately I think its only natural for people to come to an understanding of the One True God, some would have it that even in the pagan times in the ancient days that there where mystery cults that would teach the One in Many mystery to initiates.

Yes, it is quite logical if you think about it. In the end, there is that which is above all others.

I find a big problem I have with Pagan religions in general is it doesn't seem to understand/seperate physical from flesh. They teach "oneness", but they teach it in a context that the physical/universe is all "one".

And it is true in a way, that the universe and everything is connected. I have seen this. But, "I am" is not physical. What is spirit is spirit, and what is flesh is flesh. It is to completely different realms.

If we were the "physical" itself, then free will wouldn't be possible. We would be like robots. That is the big complaint I have against pagans and also "new agers".

Much of this is very hard to explain when it comes to showing the difference between flesh and spirit. I learned alot because it use to be a personal goal of mine to create "intelligence". Not artificial intelligence, but real intelligence. I came to realize exactly what the difference was.

The fighting over land though yes its stupid, I said in my post to LV my opinion on the current land even if you believe the OT for literal truth (which is not what I'm saying as my view)

A fight over the material. I am a warrior, but I am not one who fights in the physical realm. I fight with words and on spiritual level.

I think thats a very fair statement to be honest. You'll notice in the OT that there is no "Jews", there is a group of people who are called "Israelites" when the OT talks of Israel, it is almost always refering to the people, not to the land.

It's in one of the samuels where they reject god and want to be like the nations. But really I base this on my own understanding. As I have said before, I was taught that if I ever put myself above other men and make myself into authority then I am doing so in error.

I was a bit blown away when I read that in Samuel. However, this is also a place a difficulty. I will explain in response to another part.

Early Jewdiasm was massively different to that practised today, what we have today is the result of the Pharisee movement.

I consider preachers and such of Christianity to be Pharisees and a continuation of that movement. These are all people who appeal to the authority of this world(evil), and they are the same in function. When I read Jesus and his words against the Pharisees, I don't just see pharisee, I see it in all religion.

It would not surprise me in the least that early Judaism was different. I completely believe it is not as intended over the past 2000 years.

The Mitzvah are not so hard, most are very small things, and even most jews dont need to keep them all. Are they gods laws ? Are they mans ?

Deeper teachings say they are gods laws, that they are part of the process of raising the sparks. Like saying a blessing whilst washing your hands. Small acts of holyiness, recognising god and be thankful in all that you do.

I just do not know. I was never specifically told any laws at all. Not a single one. I was just given a basic understanding of the reasoning behind the commandments. But it's not like it was said "this is the reasoning behind the commandments", but rather from the understanding I was given, I could on my own see the commandments.

And many things do go beyond the commandments themselves. I say keep the commandments often, but really it's not the "commandments" themselves which are kept, but the understanding behind that. And that can go beyond the commandments. 613 of them? Well that seems a bit of a large number to me.

But you say Leviticus is not part of them later. So I think I do not know what those 613 things are exactly.

The thing about the Jewish religion (as it is known now and since the time of the Pharisee), is it is designed and I mean really designed with purpose, to control peoples lives, to bring structure, and to enforce a certain type of sociological control. If you read the Torah objectively as well as other Jewish texts you would be able to see this with no problem.

So yes are there things that where hijacked in the name of spreading "the right word" certainly. Part of the problem with all religions even the older ones is that they priesthoods have always manipulated things for their own reasons. Sometimes with the right intentions but it leaves an aweful mess for us to clean up later.

The control thing - I do not know. I can only say that "control" is not a part of what I experienced. And it's not because I didn't ask for such either.

After coming into some understanding about the nature of the father and so forth, and I could see how blind people in the world were I was somewhat overwhelmed with was was before me. How in the world can I make a difference. How can I do the right thing.

This was before I understood religion as I did now. At that time, I only thought of religion as being what the people said about it. As far as Christianity, all I knew of it was what you see on TV, or what I heard from preachers(I grew up in the deep deep south/bible belt).

So, I thought - I will give my will to the father. But it was not taken. Because "control" was not the will of the father. If it had been the will of the father, then it would have been as such from the start - no choice. I come to see that the "will" of the father was for me to understand and have wisdom etc. So, when I tried to give up my will to father, it was rejected, and instead I started to receive more understanding. So that based on my understanding and choice/wisdom - I could do the will of the father.

Which would a man rather have? Someone who pretended to respect them to their face, but did it only out of fear. Or would you rather be respected because the person fully understands why you deserve such? I would say 1 is not respect at all. People treat "god" like a bad boss at work, I do not like it, I think it is disrespectful to the father and is in vain.

I agree, Reb Nachman taught that when you say a prayer by rote that the demons all ready know the path it will take to heaven and therefore can intercept it easily, but if you say a prayer from the heart with fresh words then they will not see it coming.

I'm not a big prayer person. I don't think it really matters, and is for men only. The father already knows and gives what you need IMO. Prayer is more about the person themselves recognizing their needs(when legit) and a time of reflection. It is sometimes amazing what someone simply thinking about such can do. Rehearsed prayer is just repetition and devoid of that. He may have seen it as "demons intercepting", but really it's just misdirected without the spirit in it.

I dont think the courts need to be tied into religion, but religion as a mark of the society in question should have some influence on the laws of the land. Or well in an ideal world, I'm not sure I would want leaders of our religions to have that power at all.

If there be a such thing as "divine government", then I think the constitution is the most divine form of government document known to man. And by that, I don't mean what the US has today, I mean in terms of how it is supposed to be followed. Kind of like religion, not in the manner of what it is today, but what it is supposed to be etc.

In terms of the book of revelation, I feel that the US constitution is the key of david. Which no man can shut.

Revelation 3

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Philadelphia and all these churches were in turkey back then. But, here is why it is interesting.

1. US was founded in Philadelphia, city of brotherly love.

2. The constitution has protected men from the 2nd beast many many times. It is constantly under attack by those who want power, but in the end they can not shut the door on it. In the end, they have to still pretend as if it is valid and so forth. They have went around it in many ways, due only to the agreement of men, but if in trouble you can always count of the constitution to help you - if you know it.

3. David was a most righteous king. Not perfect, but righteous in that if he seen the mistake, he fixed it. He also took what was considered the "worse of the earth" and lead them onward. This is also how people once viewed the US - the rejects of society.

Of course, the real "key" is not the document itself, but the spirit

The real key is not so much the document itself, but rather the spirit in which it was written. The document becomes the "key" because it carries that spirit. If followed properly, it meets those things you speak of.

I could go on for days about that.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
I think there has been some confusion, failing to keep the Mitzvah is not a sin, its more like a failure to produce light when you had the oppurtunity. A sin would be breaking one of the 10.

The rules in Leviticus are a creation of the Pharisee. They are not the Mitzvah.

The Mitzvah are the oppurtunities to raise your own spiritual level through observation of holyness. Their exact number and nature are disputed amongst the rabbis. They are not laws to recieve punishment should you slip up.

I have come to the conclusions that I am unsure what the Mitzvah itself is. As I considered the laws with Leviticus as being apart of that. I am actually happy to hear that those laws are not, because those laws are clearly of men.

I think if I get some time in the next few days I will try to research into that topic a bit more. It sounds much more reasonable in this manner.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Indeed in the terms of the topic at hand, that of the Messianic Kingdom, it would seem inevitable that the true "Children of Israel" / Keepers of the Covenant would be those who follow the spirit of God, not any given race of people, not those who pay lip service or happen to hold a position of power in a religion, but those with true love of god in their heart (including of course the true believing innocents of the religions).

All those others are still very much blessed. As much as I disagree with OliveOil and Simplynonone, I think and will tell them that they are very blessed.

They are just poor in spirit is all. Like in that Rev2:9 verse(but thou are rich), he is calling them rich because they are rich in spirit. Rich in the way the father rewards(true riches).

Poor in spirit just means they are ignorant/blind. And that is not an insult, it's just the reality of the situation. Only need to deceive the good people to get them to do and serve evil things. Just tell them the truth if they are evil. When truth and understanding come, they will accept it and so forth.

It will happen one day, just don't ask me when because I haven't a clue, except the obvious - each day is 1 day closer.

The wicked need only worry. But they have their purpose and reason too. i think there is much misunderstanding about the wicked. But it's such a slippery slope I don't talk about it much. There is a difference in understanding it's purpose, and actually following/doing those things. Just because it has it's purpose and reason doesn't mean it's to be done/followed.

But, when that truth/understanding comes to them - then they too will be just like the keepers in the way you speak, and anything short of that is not the truth. Jesus is to be the norm, not the exception and nothing short of that will do/is true. But this is not to be confused with a society/authority/government which comes along and forces people to do. It will be done out of understanding, not enforcement(which has been tried and failed for over 2000 years).