The Time of Gentiles Is Over

reply to post by pasttheclouds

even in parts of my dreams i seem to be awake and stay reflecting the same boring way as i do awake, not enjoying a dreamstate but a thinkingstate haha talking about finding reason sometimes it was hard.

I get confused and don't know if I've asked some questions or gotten some answers. I did remember that there was a psalm of significance.

A psalm of Asaph.

PS 73:1 Surely God is good to Israel,
to those who are pure in heart.

PS 73:2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
I had nearly lost my foothold.

PS 73:3 For I envied the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

PS 73:4 They have no struggles;
their bodies are healthy and strong.

PS 73:5 They are free from the burdens common to man;
they are not plagued by human ills.

PS 73:6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
they clothe themselves with violence.

PS 73:7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity;
the evil conceits of their minds know no limits.

PS 73:8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
in their arrogance they threaten oppression.

PS 73:9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.

PS 73:10 Therefore their people turn to them
and drink up waters in abundance.

PS 73:11 They say, "How can God know?
Does the Most High have knowledge?"

PS 73:12 This is what the wicked are like--
always carefree, they increase in wealth.

PS 73:13 Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure;
in vain have I washed my hands in innocence.

PS 73:14 All day long I have been plagued;
I have been punished every morning.

PS 73:15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
I would have betrayed your children.

PS 73:16 When I tried to understand all this,
it was oppressive to me

PS 73:17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;
then I understood their final destiny.

PS 73:18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.

PS 73:19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!

PS 73:20 As a dream when one awakes,
so when you arise, O Lord,
you will despise them as fantasies.

PS 73:21 When my heart was grieved
and my spirit embittered,

PS 73:22 I was senseless and ignorant;
I was a brute beast before you.

PS 73:23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.

PS 73:24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.

PS 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.

PS 73:26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.

PS 73:27 Those who are far from you will perish;
you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.

PS 73:28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.
I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;
I will tell of all your deeds.

This Asaph seems to have served the tent in David's time as musical prophet. A man like Joshua in Moses' time and Samuel too. I've neglected the Psalms too long, I think.

The angel Gabriel seems much better informed than Michael even though Michael is the prince, and has great power. Nebuchadnezzar seems to represent the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of and Israel too. And cut down but leaving the stump, he became a beast reminiscent of Enkidu in Gilgamesh epic.

I think you said that Michael must ascend to the heights and fulfill in himself a struggle with blasphemy before discovering One God above and beyond all others. Then he will be free to drop ignorance to the earth. If he is prince of Israel, then that must happen in order for hardening of Israel to end? Like Nebuchadnezzar raised back and sanity restored after looking up and knowing Heaven rules.

Daniel was told these things that were destined, therefore no choice in the matter. It must happen. And the cast down ignorance brings madness to those on the earth. But Michael is free to stand as defender.

This is much. And Paul saw it without knowing it was for our times and not his own.


[edit on 17-1-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by arbiture

Are you trying to instill a bunker mentality? I'm a gentile, and I'm not going any where soon. My guess is your a some what depressed and have a complex that deflects your pain on to a fictional threat. It never stops to amaze me how often the Jews are singled out as the curse of humanity. While you diden't mention them, it's apparent what you meen.

I don't see how you get that from OP. I thought it was a call for Christians to grow up.

reply to post by pthena

There are two 'Gentiles until'...

The first is a historical event...

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

...the second is

Romans 11:25 "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Israel is back but is still predominantly a secular nation...
...and still blind about their Lord who became Jesus and Messiah...
...so then it must be that the 'fulness of the Gentiles' is still not come in.

What do you think?

Ps I don't believe all the Dispensationalist stuff either.

[edit on 18/1/10 by troubleshooter]

you are mixing, confusion of a country and a city
with a symbol and a symbol.

Israel is a name for what will be or is in salvation,
including what does not have choice and is in destiny created,
for example children that die young or insanity that never had a full choice.
Children reflect, ignorance avoids reflection. Children are Israel.
jerusalem is the name of the prophets.

Israel is in and has many levels, that's why israel in the bible is divided in areas, northern and southern kingdoms, you have Ephraim, you have Judeah, you have the kingdom of israel under David.
Then you have the levites symbolising israel in "the israel of mankind".
In one of his roles Israel played the world, the priests are scattered over
that world.Priests in and out the temple were divided in many areas,
you have those for music, those for the offers etc etc.
They symbolise the different levels of israel.
Thats why the prophesies of the prophets are difficult to understand,
they talk about different levels, sometimes they talk about the area,
sometimes about the symbol in one context, sometimes the same symbol as used in another context.

the fullness of the gentiles is at the end of this age, not before the end of this age. It means the full number.

the fullfillment of israel as country is a shadow
it means a symbol to teach and to divide, division is needed to take a turn back...
without seeing (accusing with open ending) you can not forgive.
Those things prepare a delusion, so there is space for cross.

I am not depressed, depressed is without hope.
I live the best i can every day, i live between love,
i just can never stop to find justice for the hard things of life,
and that does not always makes me happy.

It is human to react on parts taken out of context but
to give you a reaction on your insisting i see the present day jews as wrong or playing out curse, my sister is jewish, i love her, and understand
how she is using the tenach rules to act out and grow her love for god. In the same way i respect those friends acting out their love for Allah by wearing a veil and following the symbols of the Quran. In the same way i understand my parents as evangelical and fundamental christians, expecting the world to be ruled by a one-person antichrist and believing our god is not very forgiving and will send people to hell.
Understanding came without mental fight ? No, i had to ask questions.
And to be honnest, God demanded me to ask questions or i could
not have lived that far. I saw such much pain around me and in me,
that i only could survive by real understanding which is forgiving.
Israel and the value of its symbol is more then what most think it is. I try to explain the symbols. People think truth will come to rescue us from above, but it will come from below.
I wrote more then once, never generalise without open ending.
meaning generalisation is a way to decribe, not to accuse.

I said iron will fight iron.

"the curse" is a symbol too, and it is better to understand it then to
fight that symbol. God always divided into curse and blessing. At Jesus cross he divided again between left and right. Curse is receiving the possibility to understand and ignore it, it is playing with fire.
In revelation the whore is the curse, but still it will come back to home.
It is not the the jewish people that are in danger to play out the curse, it is a part of religion, and it is better that then living in ignorance, which is not the whore but the beast. The meaning of Dan is made by that.

Who kills with the sword, will be killed with it.
It means instead of working over time, having to do all the work in a small time, more intensive then you allready could have done in preparation will make you act/play out insanity. That is what God means with playing the curse.

To make sure you get the context. Religion as eveyrhting is DUAL.
There is a side that grows and a side that ignores. Religion is both blessing as curse.

Thats why the beast resembles God,
That's why Rome has 7 hills just as Jerusalem has.
They are symbols for that duality.
The prophets and the truth come from several religions,
just as the lies come from those same religions.
(Atheism is a religion, dual made)

Gabriel (Revelation- symbol, growing truth, wisdom) will give you a new interpretation,
a better one,
The Lie which is a spirit, state of Ignorance,
will confirm the old interpretation to be in rest.

That's why the second beast confirms the first one,
and is the false prophet as a mental state.
That state exsisted before the first beast was developed.
Ignorance(=rest) is before and still makes you
worship the lie.


[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pthena


The psalms are a lesson in honesty. We are all made to desire much,
so we can't blame the other for doing the same.
Desiring a perfect world is the most egoistic
thing there is, because God where he is perfect
is what he wants. He puts his qualities in us.
Ignorance of those qualities will make them come out
the hard way, and it is that hard way thay we try to avoid,
by releasing it in time. A peacefull state will not attack,
so if we find peace every second for the past we lived,
we integrate our previous pain and release what is to much.
What we released can not beat us anymore.

Selfishness is avoiding to see your own desiring and arrogance is equal to all, and by putting blame on the others, you allow yourself to take away from them. It's easy to attack, but more difficult to defend.
It is making unequal without the effort to merge it back into equal.
It's not about being better, it's about being equal. You win the day you recognise yourself in the other, not by living in the illusion your qualities are different from the other. Salvation is the best way of survival. You give because that is what you wish others to do with you. Instead of letting randomness rule your world, and feeling justified in it, which is a false justifying, because randomness comes back, as everything in this world takes a U-turn.

The sin agaisnt the spirit is not, desiring much, but, avoiding to see ,
we all share the same qualities, so we are in need to forgive, which is understanding. It is growth. Which is choice, sin is the old word.
Ignorance creates choice, something god does not have except here.
God can not choose against himself. He always does his optimal, optimal means erasing choice. Ignorance sees and then pushes it out of view, which is equal to creating choice, it is active choice. To allow God to have choice, this world exsists. By your power of being one with God you can actively throw it away. That's why God is prisoned as humans in this world,
and those prisons are not in the power of God, which means free will as opposite to choice.

Gabriel symbolises truth coming down, Michael symbolises the integration, it means son. Michael is a eagle-vulture, eating dead carcass, meaning lies. The prince is the son. Michael fights in levels. Michael fighted in Jesus, and did it through history again and again. Salvation is equal to Elijah, whic is the seal of the prophets, described in the quran and gospel. Which means God is All/God is here, in part of it's explination.
That's why he will look false and again false.

Delusion is prepared, it can not be stopped on a world level,
but it can be stopped on personal levels. The hardening of
a PART of israel will not be stopped.
(israel is NOT THE COUNTRY, NOR THE PRESENT DAY JEWISH PEOPLE, they could be part of it, just as parts of the rest of the world could be part of the israel described in the bible, they are NOT the same thing)
They will not be able to read love in this message. Part of them will be in such fear of what will shine, that they will fight it.

Because of this the rest of the world will loose their belief
in what shines, and will soon start to doubt it,
they expected peace, not reflection and doubt.
It will be as when people expected jesus to bring peace,
when he actually died and left.



[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

please do not read my words out of context,
the whole thread explains it well.

reply to post by troubleshooter

There are two 'Gentiles until'...

The first is a historical event...

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

...the second is

Romans 11:25 "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Israel is back but is still predominantly a secular nation...
...and still blind about their Lord who became Jesus and Messiah...
...so then it must be that the 'fulness of the Gentiles' is still not come in.

What do you think?

Ps I don't believe all the Dispensationalist stuff either.

I think I'm very much ignorant because I haven't kept up with Biblical criticism at all in the last 40 yrs. Just last night I found out that oldest Hebrew script discovered dates to 1000 bc, which puts in serious doubt any early date for Torah authorship. Plus no evidence for a mighty United Kingdom under Solomon. Many assumptions I've had are collapsing.

This was really kind of an obsolete thread that I was using to learn from pasttheclouds system of logic, which seems to me to have much merit.

Nevertheless, I will state what I think. The Exodus story is a highly idealized telling of history of exodus and giving of Law. As such today, symbolism should be the main focus when reading it. In a similar way the United Kingdom stories in Samuel and Kings is also highly idealized, and should also be read as symbolism.

Actual history seems to start at about the time of Babylonian deportation. As far as can be determined, only about one third of Jews actually were taken to Babylon. The 'horrible captivity' is idealized, and rather than take that as symbolism, I reject the notion. In Babylon is where the Jews thrived, so much so that the population there was greater than that in Judea.

This is where it really gets interesting, the return under Ezra and Nehemiah. Over a 100 year period, a couple of waves of returnees went back to Jerusalem. They completely dominated the Jews who were the remnant still there. That remnant was pretty much at peace with their neighbors.

Now, I will talk of the hand of man as opposed to the hand of God:
With full Persian imperial backing such men as Ezra and Nehemiah took control of Jerusalem, instituting reforms such that the remnant were required to break up marriages, cast out 'foreigners' and make themselves 'holy' under the law. Humanity and common human decency were sacrificed for the benefit of 'holiness'. That's man's religion and not God's.

That Ezra and Nehemiah return is a symbol of what we see today. The hand of man, first under British Empire and now under American Empire, has brought Jews back to the land. The land was not empty of inhabitants. Those inhabitants must be removed or destroyed so that 'a holy people' may remain. That's man's religion and not God's.

So anybody can call me anti-semitic all they want. I don't care. Plenty of Jews view this hand-of-man imperial project with just as much horror as I do.

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus really meant it when he said:

MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

Henceforth 'Israel' has nothing whatsoever to do with territory, or rebuilding temples, or driving anybody out of anywhere. Israel has to do with people scattered in the world who know their God, even if they're atheists who still know that they have a duty to fellow humans. It should be plain that that's the people God calls his own.

Religionists are blind guides, Jewish and Christian, who think imperial power and military might is the hand of God. All Israel will be saved where ever they happen to reside as aliens in this world, the same goes for Christians who place their hope in God and not Empire militaries no matter how powerful.


[edit on 18-1-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pasttheclouds

Selfishness is avoiding to see your own desiring and arrogance is equal to all, and by putting blame on the others, you allow yourself to take away from them. It's easy to attack, but more difficult to defend.
It is making unequal without the effort to merge it back into equal.
It's not about being better, it's about being equal. You win the day you recognise yourself in the other, not by living in the illusion your qualities are different from the other. Salvation is the best way of survival. You give because that is what you wish others to do with you. Instead of letting randomness rule your world, and feeling justified in it, which is a false justifying, because randomness comes back, as everything in this world takes a U-turn.

The sin agaisnt the spirit is not, desiring much, but, avoiding to see ,
we all share the same qualities, so we are in need to forgive, which is understanding. It is growth. Which is choice, sin is the old word.
Ignorance creates choice, something god does not have except here.
God can not choose against himself. He always does his optimal, optimal means erasing choice. Ignorance sees and then pushes it out of view, which is equal to creating choice, it is active choice. To allow God to have choice, this world exsists. By your power of being one with God you can actively throw it away. That's why God is prisoned as humans in this world,
and those prisons are not in the power of God, which means free will as opposite to choice.

I think I understand it now. God outside the world has no choice. God in the world has choice (ignorance) in us. Yet God is One.
Rebuke sin (ignorance) and forgive, for I am ignorant too.
Trust not the flesh, but give alms, for I have physical needs too.
Bless those who curse me, for I am not free yet of cursing, and also need blessing.
In submission to Allah be at peace, but fight the jihad against self.

This is simple yet hard, boring yet challenging.

yes, you get it

where god is in peace he will not chose not to be.
so how can he be all, thats the adam>elijah/son of man (plant of life) issue of choosing
to know, which is not knowing, ending in not knowing, which
becomes knowing.
Truth has the minimal need to be everything, not every potential as real, but everything what he isn't can not be outside him, or he is not absolute, so he has to cancel it out in this world.

A coward becomes a hero because he didn't had any other choice,
ask any hero why they did it, and they will say 'i did not had any other choice then to do it' , keep in mind they become heroes AFTER being the cowards (not having choice) in the situation that made them become heroes.

but, this also counts for the insane. Sometimes they didn't had any other choice. People who are in rest do have choice to erase their choice by seeing what they can do at that moment to help the total of us.







[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds
Thank you very much for your help. I'm glad you learned patience. I think I should read the Qur'an more. I've only read it once through about five years ago. It seems a good place for Christians to start to untangle their religion. Also it's easier for Bible readers than trying to understand Buddhism, which I still can't quite understand, but I probably don't have to.

The quran is a book of love, if you understand it is written in a language similar to the bibilical languages. Those languages are open for interpretation, because every words has many meanings and those meanings conflict. The Quran is clear about which interpretation is the best, the one that defends God, glorifies god, and is clear about who god is, ONE. The quran in that way is a perfect book. But it is used as other religions together with oral laws and teachings that confuse, christianity has also oral teachings, it is the sects-form, the many many differences in theology. Buddhism is a teaching about heaven and salvation, but it also is made dual because it is one of the best religions to hide behind to ignore everyone and think it is meant to be like that, so i can go partying without helping. Buddhism is a teaching about God. God is the one who reincarnates forever. Not us as humans, A human still needs to become a real soul. There is only one prophet and one real spirit, God.

Reincarnation in endless circles is not optimal, not optimal cancels out truth and God as absolute. Its the same for the parallell universes of science, it cancels out an absolute truth, which is not defendable from their own mathematics kind of logic.

When the absolute allows himself pain, he does it optimal. In every other place he is free and in peace.

by the way, partying is good :-)
but there are times of rest of work and of work.

Ignorance is is rest of rest haha
sorry i have a very bad humour sometimes !


[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds

Buddhism is a teaching about heaven and salvation, but it also is made dual because it is one of the best religions to hide behind to ignore everyone and think it is meant to be like that

That's what I thought about Buddhism too. Peace before its time. Also I believe in each human having a soul, reincarnation doesn't work out right. Resurrection makes sense to me.

Tithing in Numbers was saving up for a party including drink to invite anybody including the poor to share. I think some of the parables of Jesus were meant to remind people of that.




[edit on 18-1-2010 by pthena]

Yes tithing symbolises also "israel/salvation". One part returns back to God. In revelation after the witnesses there is written "one tenth and 7000"

ofcourse helping is not always in tears, it is also in sharing joy.
actually jesus started his mission on one :-) he changed water into wine.
(it means repenting=reflecting into rest) but only at the wedding, after the work.
every story of jesus and of the bible has many layers. This one is more famous.

wine has different meanings. Wine is from the fruit,
when the fruit is pressed. wine flows.
after the work we end in the land of honey. sweetness.
wine is pleasure. Some drink wine before they lived
on water and bread. Pleasure can blind. "Seeing double" because of wine,
means not seeing one.



[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds
Wine for me symbolizes peace. Noah after flood. There must be some peace and stability in order to grow vines, harvest grapes, press then ferment. Can't do that while fighting.

Also last supper Jesus said he wouldn't drink again until drinking new in the kingdom of heaven.

reply to post by pthena


right ! that's why there are always periods of rest,
john the baptist lives on honey and locusts...work/rest

when jesus went up glorification was full and he was allready int he kingdom the kingdom is all time. He just moved his feet from one reality to another one where all is included. It means going up to the father.

peace = pleasure = rest
freedom = acceptance
(wanting to be accepted is the same as being set free,
when you are set free by setting the rest free your 'bad' sides do not have any reason, so you become freedom )

all words lead to the top of the pyramid and change into one word,
all. its equal.

its sometimes difficult to explain equal words to people that are keeping tight to their understanding of the old, but it is a very important thing to understand the bible. For most people i am not scientific enough to explain
what i do. University didnt teach me love. which is logic.

yesterday a friend of me said she forgave someone for something
'bad', i asked if she set him free then, the answer was she didn't understand why he did it, but that she forgave. I didn't went to deep because she was avoiding it, but that is an intention to let it go and forgive, while trying to live further. But it is not forgiven as cleared of debt. Because only understanding clears of debt, and that is real forgiveness. Understanding does not blame anymore.

Same with repenting, for many repenting is not the same as seeing and reflecting. Seeing is always reflecting back to you.

Same with prayer
some think it is worship, and not reflecting. But prayer is reflecting is worship because reflecting is the way to acceptance which is love. It is meditation. You speak with god, ask him questions so he can respond.
prayer is repenting. But "the way" is more important yet then the endresult, because it brings it closer. relfection simply means being in consciousness.

I am a bit tired. I always wonder how far i have to understand those symbols. I used the symbols to understand the logic. And the logic to understand the symbols. Something is incomplete or the lie would fall from heaven. I can only look further. symbols are a shadow of logic. the logic needs to be closed.


[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds

when jesus went up glorification was full and he was allready int he kingdom the kingdom is all time. He just moved his feet from one reality to another one where all is included. It means going up to the father.

Kingdom is now in part, full later

But it is not forgiven as cleared of debt. Because only understanding clears of debt, and that is real forgiveness. Understanding does not blame anymore.

Same with repenting, for many repenting is not the same as seeing and reflecting. Seeing is always reflecting back to you.

Without seeing and understanding it isn't relaesed, therefore still with you. But even imperfect forgiveness and repentance shows intent and choice.

Same with prayer
some think it is worship, and not reflecting. But prayer is reflecting is worship because reflecting is the way to acceptance which is love. It is meditation. You speak with god, ask him questions so he can respond.
prayer is repenting. But "the way" is more important yet then the endresult, because it brings it closer. relfection simply means being in consciousness.

I've actually forgotten the old manner of prayer and worship. Reverence seems a better concept. I heard a rabbi say once, 'sanctification of the mundane.'

I am a bit tired. I always wonder how far i have to understand those symbols. I used the symbols to understand the logic. And the logic to understand the symbols. Something is incomplete or the lie would fall from heaven. I can only look further. symbols are a shadow of logic. the logic needs to be closed.

HEB 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

HEB 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Evidently, the numbers not all in yet. Together as one we become perfect. That sounds like the resurrection to me.

the last verse you send is a very beautifull one,
yes, the kingdom will come down.

I am still here, but the cup empty.
He is always here.
Truth is simple, not many more words can be written.
Spread love and explain until you explained it in yourself.




[edit on 18-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds
That looks right. I'm going to a book store now and see if I can catch up on some information I lack.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by troubleshooter

There are two 'Gentiles until'...

The first is a historical event...

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

...the second is

Romans 11:25 "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Israel is back but is still predominantly a secular nation...
...and still blind about their Lord who became Jesus and Messiah...
...so then it must be that the 'fulness of the Gentiles' is still not come in.

What do you think?

Ps I don't believe all the Dispensationalist stuff either.

I think I'm very much ignorant because I haven't kept up with Biblical criticism at all in the last 40 yrs. Just last night I found out that oldest Hebrew script discovered dates to 1000 bc, which puts in serious doubt any early date for Torah authorship. Plus no evidence for a mighty United Kingdom under Solomon. Many assumptions I've had are collapsing.

You should read something on the transmission of ancient texts.

This 1000 year old fragment really means very little...
...scribes sometimes worked with a single manuscript all their lives...
...memorizing and copying it...
...and as the old manuscripts became old and damaged they were destoyed...
...so it is unlikely to find any evidence of texts older than this.

There is internal evidence in the Torah that suggests...
...that Moses wrote the Torah during the Exodus from Egypt...
...and it was finished by scribes after his death...
...the earliest date for the Exodus is held to be about 1600 BCE...
...and the latest date about 1200-1250 BCE.

Some scholars hold that The Book of Job was the first manuscript contained in the modern western canon to be written...
...therefore preceeding the Exodus dates.

So I would not turn your Jewish history in to symbol just yet...
...secular scholars make assumptions based on their own world-view...
...and tend to clutch to these finds as a drowning man a lifebouy...
...but you certainly don't need to.

reply to post by troubleshooter

There is internal evidence in the Torah that suggests...
...that Moses wrote the Torah during the Exodus from Egypt...
...and it was finished by scribes after his death...
...the earliest date for the Exodus is held to be about 1600 BCE...
...and the latest date about 1200-1250 BCE.

My term paper in college was on the date of the Exodus. I think I settled on circa 1440 BC with Hatshepsut as step-mother of Moses. It's been along time, and as I said, I haven't kept up on textual criticism.

en.wikipedia.org...
Exodus 12:37 refers to 600,000 adult Israelite men leaving Egypt with Moses, plus an unspecified but apparently large "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites;[13] Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550.[14]

If taken literally the total number involved, the 600,000 "fighting men" plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude," would have been two million or more,[15] equivalent to more than half of the entire Egyptian population of around 3-6 million.[16] The loss of such a huge proportion of the population would have caused havoc to the Egyptian economy, but no evidence of such effect has been found. Archaeological research has found no evidence that the Sinai desert ever hosted, or could have hosted, millions of people, nor of a massive population increase in Canaan, estimated to have had a population of between 50,000 and 100,000 at the time.[17] The logistics involved also present problems, with Eric Cline pointing out that 2.5 million people marching ten abreast would form a line 150 miles long, without accounting for livestock.[18]

I thought some of my other thoughts would be more controversial, actually.




[edit on 19-1-2010 by pthena]