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The Time of Gentiles Is Over

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posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 01:34 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


one quality of humans is they can't shut up

the cup is only empty when it is allowed :-)
i talk about myself now;

your write :
So I would not turn your Jewish history in to symbol just yet...
...secular scholars make assumptions based on their own world-view...
...and tend to clutch to these finds as a drowning man a lifebouy...
...but you certainly don't need to.

why defend the history of a law if we can not read what that law brings ?
a casino is a place where we pick to believe random what we don't know
faith is a place where we defend our own selves and build on the place that we can know by the hope of what we don't know yet but want to reach. repenting is seeing what is not true and needs honesty.
fact is that god doesn't allow humans to see the past how it really happened, we can use it to search, but not to hide.

it means that hope allows us to see honnest. It's by searching history
that we can release history. There are no facts in the past and no fact in the present except by logic.

doesnt take away that the history of the bible is one of the most
interesting things.

To avoid personal world views we use logic.



[edit on 19-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]




posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 05:13 AM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
Sorry, it takes me more than one quick reply to answer a question. I'll answer your question about Romans 11 and about symbolic use of Torah together.

Paul was still developing his gospel mystery doctrine of church as one body of Christ consisting of Jews, Gentiles, slave, free, male, and female; all equal and all one, sharing the same spirit of the one God with Jesus as head of the body, already ascended to heaven. This is how his message ended up by the time he wrote Ephesians. In Romans, it wasn't yet fully developed. The beginning is seen in his olive tree illustration (16-24).

Paul, in his later development did not use any talk of a time of Gentiles again, he dropped it, instead he used terms like 'Jew and Gentile all together in one body in Christ.' Since Paul dropped the terminology, that gives me the boldness to drop it too, which is the theme of the thread.

As for a literal reading of Exodus: I am a person like a Jebusite. There is an army ordered by their god to come and kill me. Is this god my god? Not at all. Can I make a covenant with these people to be one of them? No, they must kill me and my family. This is not my god, neither does he want to be my god. That's all I get from a literal reading. There's nothing for me there.

The god who appears as burning bush, or pillar of fire, or dark cloud is less than God who is One. These were angels representing the One. The truest representation was the man Moses, as a prophet he had the spirit of God, the anointing of the same spirit as Jesus. He spoke with the authority of God. He was god on earth for Israel the same way Jesus was god on earth for the world after receiving the Fathers word's to speak in the world.

Symbolically, there is much in the Torah, literally I have no part whatsoever. My God is One, the One for Jew and Gentile without distinction.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by rileyw
Julius Wellhausen and von Rad, those are the names I had forgotten. They featured large in foot notes. For some reason I couldn't get their books.

Thank you rileyw, I couldn't even remember their names to even look up!
For being fiction the stories are not rendered untrue, they are elevated to myth. Myth is where people look for self identity.

Through myth I can identify myself with Paul.
The Lord says, "I am sending you away into exile, to the gentiles." To the gentiles he goes, driven away from the land of promise. As an apostle to the Gentiles, he represents Gentiles, as an Israelite he represents the people of promise who have the Law. He is split, he is torn, he is confused. And yet he is commanded to speak. As a confused person he speaks. He would like to go back to the Law he knew, the literal Law. The scales falling from his eyes symbolizes the gradual looking beyond the division. The Lord says 'Try to go back to the Law.' He tries, but he cannot, for as representative of Gentiles, he carries Gentiles with him (thorn in the flesh). Gentiles have no place in the law but destruction. That's the messenger of Satan. By clearly seeing the Law for what it is he dies to the Law.

By the time he got to Athens, and saw the 'statue to the unknown god', he came to realize that the God who is One is the unknown god; the One in whom we live and breathe and have our being. Paul was hated by all people who had a god who was less than One. Including the Jews in Jerusalem. He knew, by the time of his last trip, that the god of the Law and of the temple was less than the One.

The way of literal law is death. The way of literal land is death. The way of Dispensationalism is death, for in dispensationalism there is always the separation of Jew and Gentile. Always, it never goes away. The god of dispensationalism is less than the One God, and always will be. That is not my god.


The Qur'an , Tarif Khalidi

11:109 Therefore, be not in doubt as to what these people worship. They merely worship as their forefathers had worshipped before. We shall pay them their share in full, undiminished.

110,111 We had brought Moses the Book, and disputes arose concerning it. ...They are in perplexing doubt concerning it.

[11.118,119] Had your Lord willed, He would have created mankind a single nation. But they continue to differ, save for those on whom God
has shown mercy
. It is for this reason that He created them. The Word of your Lord shall be perfectly completed: 'I shall fill Gehenna (Hell)
with jinn and people, all together.'

[11.120] All that We narrate to you from the tales of the Messengers is such wherewith We strengthen your heart. To you thereby has come the Truth, a Lesson and a Rememberance to the believers.
[11.121] Say to those who disbelieve: 'Do the best you can, and we shall do likewise. And watch and wait; we too are watching and waiting.'

Back in the old days when I was a Christian(call me infidel) I was also a charismatic. I had friends who I met with to sing songs and study the Bible with. One night as I approached the meetingplace singing a song full of the spirit, I was suddenly struck by difference of the spirit in my friends. The spirits clashed and fought. I found out that they joined a church of dispensationalism and were rejoicing in physical literal Israel returning to physical literal land; because that meant they would very soon be physically literally taken to heaven while the Jews would be left to suffer under anti-christ.



[edit on 20-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 

This is how his message ended up by the time he wrote Ephesians.

The current majority opinion of New Testament scholars is that Ephesians and Colossians were written in a rivalry between competing schools of followers of Paul, and not by Paul himself, who was already dead by the time these were written.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 12:51 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


The current majority opinion of New Testament scholars is that Ephesians and Colossians were written in a rivalry between competing schools of followers of Paul, and not by Paul himself, who was already dead by the time these were written.

Crying out loud! First I hear Colosians is his, not Ephesians. Then I hear Colosians is the forgery. Now both. Oh well, the ghist can still be derived from Galatians and Corintians (and I'm aware those got doctored up too.)

Comparing 1 Peter with Pauline writings shows that it was probably written by a Paul follower in Rome.

I got Lost Christianities by Ehrman, haven't read it yet. Might have some answers about different early opinions on things.



[edit on 20-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 
Let me know how things go with that. I'm kind of like making myself broke buying books. (I have 17 books in my Wish List on Amazon) Anyway, it seems Ehrman is about it for real criticism of texts for the general public.
The theory of the 'later" Paul is one of those contrivances to make the canonical New Testament seem real and has nothing to do with serious critical study.
Your Jebusite comment affected me to the point of making a heretical (for an SDA) comment on the "Ten Commandment" thread on Conspiracies in Religion. Basically, if you are guilty of any offence, you need to be put to death. Or, decide you can not be saved by the Law, and seek the alternative which is probably really nothing to do with all that "I am Yahweh" stuff.


[edit on 20-1-2010 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


The theory of the 'later" Paul is one of those contrivances to make the canonical New Testament seem real and has nothing to do with serious critical study.

How easily I'm caught with my contrivances down! That was my own contrivance. I was not taught it, neither did I receive it from another man.

Seriously though, Ehrman identifies what he calls 'proto orthodoxy' which came in fairly soon, late first - early second centuries. Many 'Pauline' letters were forgeries, Colosians, Ephesians, I&II Timothy, Titus, maybe 11 Thess. Others would be 1 Peter. These pretty much set the stage for orthodoxy and canon, as in 'nothing would be considered canonical unless they agreed doctrinally with these'.



Your Jebusite comment affected me to the point of making a heretical (for an SDA) comment on the "Ten Commandment" thread on Conspiracies in Religion. Basically, if you are guilty of any offence, you need to be put to death. Or, decide you can not be saved by the Law, and seek the alternative which is probably really nothing to do with all that "I am Yahweh" stuff.

There are very many assumptions that Christians have. They really should be scrutinized. Quite literally, the YHWH of Exodus is not the supreme being. Just about every form of Christianity I know of assumes that he is. I think most Judaism assumes it too. Since I deny it, it makes me a horrible dangerous person, similar to Paul, a threat to everything wholesome, decent, and good. What's the mob saying? "We have a law, and according to that law he must die!"

I heard it's not good to slander angels, so I'll leave the conclusion unsaid. Exodus YHWH demands exclusive worship as god. He is, however, merely a clan god of a clan not mine. I must die. Orthodox Christianity has a solution that some one else died for me, therefore I can join the clan whether the clan likes it or not. That's a notion I also reject.

My solution is to reject all clan gods, and acknowledge One who is above all clans. The One does not demand that I kill any one. See what a horrible threat I pose to every earthly power structure!

If I was a good Muslim I would stand aloof and allow Jews and Christians alone with their inferior notions of deity. But no, I am still not submissive enough. I am still personally offended by the death and destruction permitted, nay, encouraged by teachers of inferior deity. So I attempt to strike at the root. Although I realize that world peace will not be the result of my efforts, nevertheless, I challenge the false basis for killers to feel secure in their religion when they say, "god told me I had to kill those people, else I would be cut off."



[edit on 20-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 07:11 PM
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There is no need to put all sins on Yahweh,
Yahweh has a law, and that law says clearly he is one,
says love all. Or be separated and accuse to become accused.
So or there is a belief in a lie that is divided, that is not the Yahweh they were meant to worship in theory, but it was certainly the function of them to misread their own law. With function i mean a god that is one is in allowance with the blindness of this world, with he blindness of the old Israelites and with the blindness of the roman empire, and every religion the world has ever known.
What is one, has only all the names, Yahweh and all the other names.
You can not be one and not be in allowance. Thats exactly the reason why people before salvation are not one with God. But allowance at salvation means everything before salvation is (release of) accusing.

God is not going to bring a new religion, but bring people home from their own main religions, their true meanings are equal,
because the main religions are made dual, in the true side of that duality
there is a god that is one to find in everyone of them (the three)
Or the way towards a god that is one.(also in skepticism/atheism)
I don't talk romanticism now, the law of one or the way is to be found
in all the main religions, not as a fairytale but for them
to find it by prioritizing what they are worshiping (goal) or to understand
the process of the way, one of the two.
That was actually Pauls message, he did not attack the
old laws because for him they were true. The problem is for many
that truth is not read in it yet.
There is no time to bring people out of their religions, there is only time to let them understand how their religions work.

Its true, that the 'lie of a Yahweh' does not exist,
but the bible never mentioned that one as real

the bible mentions one with many names, always to be one.

Even it is difficult, and maybe it is not acceptable for (y)our belief systems yet, because it is to hard to see yet,
and i only will write it now, but the worst things happen,
and if your god is one, he allows it. Improve yourself to search why,
then to condemn god. You can not protect a god that is one and then attack him, well you can, you are human, but don't blind yourself for the logic behind One.

If you belief in a god that is one, it is a need to allow the possibilities
of coincidences to be a part of how you think the world evolved. People always search connecting explinations, but god allowed history to be hidden and misunderstood.
It's funny to see people be sure about a god that is one and not belief
in miracles or the power of that god to be the law, instead of the so called laws of nature that are not exsisting, they only look to be.
God made for every rule an exception so you can find him. Also
in the (natural) laws we believed as society to be true.
God did not show his possibilities to us, not to allow us choice but to build his paradox-plant, logic, with miracles everywhere there would be no logic built, but enough happened to pressure the plant to search logic.
By allowing seemingly randomness logic evolved. But randomness does not exist in this world. If your belief is really a god of one. Or his other name, truth, you will enter until salvation a world of fog.
By growth pauls words will change all the time, every word and parable in the bible will turn and move together with you clockwise and will change tone and meaning in every step you will do. The mysteries can be understood.


[edit on 20-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 

My solution is to reject all clan gods, and acknowledge One who is above all clans.
John 3:16
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

What it does not say is, "God loved a particular segment of the world that he gave His son to rehabilitate the religion of that few, to make it more acceptable to the others, who may join in, if they follow the more important aspects of that religion."



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 08:32 PM
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John can not speak against it self, or christianity becomes a lie.
So the present day interpretation could be wrong.
The church prefers contradictions to not loose
the safety of the salvation they believe in.
God law can not contradict with a son.
It means his only son is himself.
Himself is to be All.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds


Even it is difficult, and maybe it is not acceptable for (y)our belief systems yet, because it is to hard to see yet,
and i only will write it now, but the worst things happen,
and if your god is one, he allows it. Improve yourself to search why,
then to condemn god. You can not protect a god that is one and then attack him, well you can, you are human, but don't blind yourself for the logic behind One.

I'm still blind. The One is still theoretical to me. My logic is flawed or I am too flawed for logic.
I am a pagan and think mythologicaly, but even that word has logic in it.
My myth is this:
The Roman armies with their catholic religion crushed my tribe in war and broke down all my tribal shrines and took away all my tribal gods. They made us learn their religion until ours was forgotten.

One day a man says, 'You can make a deal with the enemy the Romans speak of and get power.' So I summon this enemy. But I feel from him only envy and hate. I tell him to go away, then filled with rage, I go out to fight him, but he's gone.

Some years later the Jesus spoken of by the Romans appears with another man, and he says, 'If you are mine, than I am yours. Fear not." Then they're gone. I don't know anything about him except what the Romans have in their religion. After years of study I still don't know. So I walk away.

I go so far away that I come to where the old Greek gods are. I meet Chronos(father of Zeus, aloof and unspeaking), Dionysus(son of Zeus, gestated in the thigh of Zeus), Athena(wisdom sprang full grown from the head of Zeus), Chiron (great centaur), and Artemis (goddess of hunt and moon). After association for some time with these, and some totemic animals including a fight with Mantis(some one else's totem), I finally question these Greek gods about Jesus, and they say he is greater than they. I ask about Chronos and they say he is the visible representation of the Greatest. My time with them was done so I left there, only Athena became a hidden part of me. That's why I'm called Pthena.

So still I wander, self exiled from most of the gods I've known. Some years ago I read the Qur'an, and Allah seems closer than any other as the One who Chronos merely represents to earth. I don't accuse the old Greek gods because they have retired, left the field, no longer ask for worship.

I don't know YHWH in any way but in the stories. He seems to be less than the One, yet demanding exclusive worship as if he were. And yet, I do feel that he lives still, is still on the field. He doesn't feel to be the enemy I mentioned at the beginning. He seems like a blasphemer to me. How can I not accuse him? And yet you say I should refrain. Not just you, most everybody says I must refrain. Even YHWH says I must refrain.

There's my predicament. He seems to me to blaspheme and yet I must not accuse. Even though I have accused, I should stop. I don't know why I should stop, but I feel I must. And I don't know why! If Paul refrained, he's a better man than I.


[edit on 20-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 01:36 AM
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you shouldnt stop accusing God if you cant yet


this is about the full of the theory.
the theory works, but in practise it's more important to give
in your capabilities then to do that what you can't yet.

Ofcourse on a realisitc level, going to the world, saying god is one,
so love all, is not that easy...it is one of the reasons why peace will not come yet and people will get bitter in their growth.

Many people only ask questions if they allready feel safe in the answer,
they want the style to be good, love to be soft. In the end yes, not while searching.
It can NOT work like that. Okay, everyone has the desire to receive soft answers, but once there is the waking up and realisation the locusts do come while searching.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]

[edit on 21-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by jmdewey60


The current majority opinion of New Testament scholars is that Ephesians and Colossians were written in a rivalry between competing schools of followers of Paul, and not by Paul himself, who was already dead by the time these were written.

Crying out loud! First I hear Colosians is his, not Ephesians. Then I hear Colosians is the forgery. Now both. Oh well, the ghist can still be derived from Galatians and Corintians (and I'm aware those got doctored up too.)

Comparing 1 Peter with Pauline writings shows that it was probably written by a Paul follower in Rome.

I got Lost Christianities by Ehrman, haven't read it yet. Might have some answers about different early opinions on things.



[edit on 20-1-2010 by pthena]




I have it that while it is suggested that Colossians was writen after Paul's
death the evidence is not conclusive one way or another. The shifts of theology in this letter are important, but all have a basis in earlier statements of Paul. The companions of Paul and those addressed by
Paul are closely connected with the same persons mentioned in Philemon.
The way of picturing Jesus expressed in this leter parallels the way found in Philippians. Probably this letter is written by Paul in the same prison from which he wrote Philemon and Phillippians. Epaphras who came to Paul to ask for this letter( col. 1:7) is probably doing much of the writing.
Most likely the year is sometime between AD 63 and AD 67, the place,
a prison in Ephesus.



1 Thessalonians, Ephesians, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus are more than
likely written after Paul's death by followers of Paul applying his thought to situations and questions that arose in the 80's and 90's.



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 12:13 PM
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in my back i have a 'iron' rod, once the whole length
it hurted. life does too.

I am not asking you to not attack god,i explain something I know for sure you will use in the near future. Forgiveness is not something to be faked,
only understanding makes it real, and that grows very slowly.

you are the only one on the whole forum here that really hears me,
god does not allow me to talk as an adult, and i never had that interest.
I was born out of a desire to give love.
And i went wrong because of it.
I only accused god all my life, and you will too.
But while you accuse, you release many more accusations. you forgive.

The roman gods tell the same story, other symbols.
the name is One, and all the names.
Mercurius, the messenger. OR the sungod from the egyptians,
they are all symbols and ALL tell the same story.

the difference is that the torah has many more secrets hidden
to make the logic complete, the paradox. Without torah and
gospel and prophets and quran it was not possible. Because by comparing
them you find out who god is. But you know who your god is,
you just can not see him yet.

I am not a writer, nor a good talker right now,
but you know soon you'll be home,
and you know the way, that is clear in many of your words,
just follow it. Never sell your soul. Carry honesty and guts,
like you have, not running away, asking more questions instead
of thinking the answer is prepared and put ready in a box.
you know the way and you will sing Moses song.

and later, many many people will, but we are made in this time unequal,
even when people do not like that fact,it is all around us.
At the end of time we will be equal, see that equality before its real,
and it will set you free, because you set all free.

I can not add here anymore,everytime i say something it is not heard.
I know it is meant to be like that.
But then i go to a more usefull place, where i dont have to talk, nor proove, but give.

Grammar for some is enough to condemn the truth.
Which is allowed. I cant be most optimal and a good writer at the same time. I am made for logic and paradox.
Which is love.My posts are full of it.
I know the sensitivity and my uninterest to write perfect that people can find back in my mails, is enough to hide for most what i say,
(not that i did not try it, i just fail in everything except thinking)
but there is no person from god, that does not live on hope, as a result showing the pain. Only after and at salvation there will be no shortage anymore. So every word i still wrote was one of shortage. I am only 31,
but i lived a feeling of a thousand years in one life. And i am a very normal guy and finally after the release of my last anger emotions i can almost say i love god and life, including all those that left me time and time again.

Moses song is for those that are 100 % honest,
honesty is the biggest cross. It will judge yourself, by the reflecting power of the divisions you make, others will judge you, as a result you will forgive, because you will understand by shortage the one that is judged is you. Jon.



[edit on 21-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds


you are the only one on the whole forum here that hears me,
god does not allow me to talk as an adult,
and i never had that interest.

That is hard to accept, it's in the book that's how god communicates. Just because it takes work to understand. I have to work to understand my granddaughter.



MT 21:16 "Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him.
"Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read,

" `From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise' ?"


ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.

The do and do is easy to understand, but the end result is injury and capture. The prior word is the strange tongue.



The roman gods tell the same story, other symbols.
the name is One, and all the names.
Mercurius, the messenger. OR the sungod from the egyptians,
they are all symbols and ALL tell the same story.

Apollo(sun messenger) is not one I associated with, Artemis(sister moon). I don't look at the sun.



[edit on 21-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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I do look at the sun.
I follow its path.
The moon will too.

Sorry i dont know the details of all the old religions,
i am focussed on the three of abraham.
I talk as a kid because i had to do something,
which was seeing what is not true.
If i had to talk my heaven on earth,
i could not have thought it.

Thanks for listening to me.
The selfishness people will read in my mails,
is that what they deny in their selves.
Jesus cried out, left by all, why defend him,
if you can not understand what a cry hides.
3 days later he did not cry anymore.
but was still here. And still all that happened in his process of glorification,
that had 2 parts for him, and a while between to take the literal cross.
God is selfish. Everything is dual. Selfishness will make you steal,
and then it will make you give, because there is no freedom without an equal price for all. the u-turn, and that u-turn is the paradox, it had to be believed. Because truth believes itself into truth.


[edit on 21-1-2010 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds


Thanks for listening to me.
The selfishness people will read in my mails,
is that what they deny in their selves.
God is selfish. Everything is dual.

Rather, I thank you for sharing. I had to listen because I still am looking. You seemed to have it more worked out. I still don't have the full solution. I must meditate still on these things; and on what you have written.




[edit on 21-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by rileyw


I have it that while it is suggested that Colossians was writen after Paul's
death the evidence is not conclusive one way or another.

That's the way I understood it 40 yrs ago.


The shifts of theology in this letter are important, but all have a basis in earlier statements of Paul. The companions of Paul and those addressed by Paul are closely connected with the same persons mentioned in Philemon. The way of picturing Jesus expressed in this leter parallels the way found in Philippians. Probably this letter is written by Paul in the same prison from which he wrote Philemon and Phillippians. Epaphras who came to Paul to ask for this letter( col. 1:7) is probably doing much of the writing. Most likely the year is sometime between AD 63 and AD 67, the place, a prison in Ephesus.

I always valued the mystical union teachings, even though I rejected much of the other Christian teachings. The conclusions in Ephesians are ones I could have eventually reached for myself, based on Romans Galatians and 1 Corinth.



1 Thessalonians, ..., 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus are more than
likely written after Paul's death by followers of Paul applying his thought to situations and questions that arose in the 80's and 90's.

The pastorals, according to Ehrman, depart from Paul's church order teachings radically. They introduce the primacy of elders above prophets, and the forbidding of women from speaking. Even the verse in 1 Cor 12 was added later by some one else. So all that anti-woman stuff isn't Paul at all, and contradicts Paul's teaching of equality for Jew, Gentile, Slave, Free, Male and Female from Galatians.

Long ago I read Paul Tillich's A History of Christian Thought. The only thing I remember is the early conflict in the church between prophets and elders for leadership. The pastorals were probably written by proto-orthodox in order to put elders(bishops) on top. That made Christianity static, set in stone.

I seem to be at war with all orthodoxies, be they Roman Catholic, Protestant, or new fangled(since 1930s) American fundamentalist dispensationalism(imported from England late 1890s early 1900s). I think it's essential today for God to be allowed to speak, orthodoxies won't allow it.

If the final goal is to be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, fullness of god in each son, then shouldn't we allow that now to begin? This won't be through orthodoxy controlled by any church organization, or earthly power. It's got to be the work of God who is One, each of us one in herself and One together.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 








The messiah prophesied in Hebrew Scripture was not divine, but one
who would return Israel to its high point, the Davidic kingdom. This is
who the Jews yearned for, a political messiah. The early Christians were
all Jews, and it was important that Scripture be fulfilled.




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