To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

Totally agree with the opening comments.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
All of you are hopeless. And maybe I'm just as bad for assuming that at some point you would have enough common sense to realize that you're being manipulated into participating in this thread.

You're not going to change the OP's stance, and maybe, judging from some of the reactions that I've seen on this thread...MAYBE HE HAS A POINT.

Personally, I respect all those who have served in the armed forces...but, I certainly don't agree with them serving under the last 2 administrations. As soon as 911 happened, people jumped on a bandwagon without really looking at the evidence, or,...lack thereof.

Those who can be so easily fooled into defending this country without adequately weighing the facts are the types that do more harm to the image of our military than helping.

Yes he has a valid point and those that have been fooled are doing more harm to themselves than to anyone else...... Many of them that bear the brunt of being combatants or medical care givers will have memories that will haunt them until they die and the masters of war will profit off of their children and grandchildren in the future just as they have on so many previous generations of young people blinded by patriotic zeal.

reply to post by Ulala


It's not possible to be "a self-appointed veteran", unless you are fraudulently claiming that status. One either is or is not a veteran.

You claim to be a veteran, yet choose to offer loathing to your fellows. I find that difficult to believe on one hand and hard to understand on the other.

No veteran was claiming to be a hero. That wars are inherently evil, stupid, and a rotten way to try solve problems is understood by veterans far better than non-veterans. Most young people are idealistic and driven by a desire to help and protect their countrymen and the weak wherever they are. Too soon they discover that they are usually protecting someone's profits instead. But unfortunately, that is merely one level of a very complex situation; in the moment when hot metal is flying about, no one fights for ideals, or country, or abstracts: they fight to survive and to keep their friends and comrades alive. WWII vets weren't heroes any more than anyone else was or is: ask them, they'll tell you straight up.

Where and when you fought for whatever reason isn't the point.

I have shaken hands with people I've fought against and found more in common with them than with many who never fought. We are all veterans, which side we fought for didn't matter a whit. We shared a horrible experience that we all felt no one should ever have to, one that left many of us scarred in many ways, one that many of us have striven as hard as we might to prevent from happening again, not that we've had much luck. We've used our experience to try to be better humans, a lot of us.

So tell me, who do you reserve your respect for? Chances are a lot are veterans, in addition to whatever else they do. Being a vet usually means you can keep your head in emergencies, being able to function in times when others are frozen in fear or uncertainty. Why is that hard for you to acknowledge and offer respect for? Vets are tougher than others, it just goes with the territory, it wouldn't kill you to acknowledge it.

The saddest part of all this is the casual dismissal of all that experience and first-hand knowledge of why war is a bad idea. We vets seldom glorify war; when anyone thinks to ask our opinion, we tell them to try talking it out first, second, and always. War is the very last option any vet will offer in my experience, because WE know better.

So what unit did you serve in and when?

Originally posted by Ulala

As to “the Veterans” I come to it from this angle. You, those who fought recently, can describe yourselves as a Veteran to your hearts content. But that doesn't make you one, despite your best attempts to tag onto the coattails of real heroes.

I class Veterans as being those who fought against the most terrible odds in wars of survival such as WW2. The Veterans of those wars have my greatest respect and I haven't said anything to the contrary. Those guys (and many women too) ensured we are free today. Those who protect liberty deserve nothing but the highest praise and I'm not shy in giving it either, both in word and deed.

Fortunately, your classification means absolutely nothing. And I doubt that any or many of the veterans from the past that you supposedly "appreciate" would feel the same about you. I'd show this to my father (WWII and Korean War era vet) for proof, but why should I get him upset over drivel such as this? That would only be being mean to my father for the purpose of feeding a troll.



[edit on 11/12/2009 by centurion1211]

dp

[edit on 12-11-2009 by VelvetSplash]

Surely if there's any forum on the internet where such an opinion is majority, it should be one like this.

Aren't there scores of threads and hundreds of posts about how wars are engineered for one vile end or another - arms sales, profit, money, oil, land etc.

The soldiers are the pawns in this war, the drones used against each other for the gain of the folks pulling the strings. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing honourable in being a mindless pawn, following orders regardless of motivation and reason. It's weak and soldiers are mindless murderers whos crimes are sanctioned by their corrupt leaders.

Your patriotism is misplaced. If humanity is going to evolve at all - isn't it time we stop listening to those who tell us the people on the other side of imaginery lines want to destroy us? Even if they do, it's only because they're also listening to their leaders telling them the same thing. And the people that allow these cretinous leaders to bring their desires to reality are the pawn soldiers who mindlessly carry out their bidding for them.

If there were no armies, the leaders who just slapping each other with their handbags, not bombing the f-ck out of thousands of innocent people year in year out.

Originally posted by Ulala
Should you be accorded praise or should your opinions be given special hearing because of your self appointed “Veteran” status ? No. They bloody well shouldn't. No-one held a gun to your heads to join up and unless you've buried your head in the sand over the last eight years it won't come as much of a surprise to learn that the conflicts into which you freely walked don't have universal support.

There are numerous different dictionaries online that you can look up the definition of veteran on, like it or not, all of them say words to the effect of a veteran is someone who has served in the armed forces, usualy a conflict.

The definitions vary, but thats what they are, therefore unless you want to change words to suit yourself, i think most will go with fact.

I do kind of get your point about the world war guys, but thats not to say that modern day troops are any less commited and willing to serve their country.....and look after you.

Funnily enough when i was receiving treatment in a UK hospital years ago for injuries sustained in N.Ireland, we had some pensioners come in who had only just realised that it was acceptable to get help with their trauma, they had kept quiet about it since the war.

I felt kind of embarrassed almost being in there receiving treatment for just a few injuries, and after losing just a few mates, when they had seen thousands die. Yet they often looked up and said they couldn't go through what todays soldiers do.

I'm sure they could really, but they were just as proud of our troops today, as we are of them from all those years ago.

We are all veterans like it or not. If i was not, the Veterans Agency would not have helped me as much as they have.

There are lots of heroes nowadays, but you'll never hear them say it, so saying todays troops are not heroes is kind of a pointless comment, as none of then said they are in the first place.

Regarding your comment above, you are right, no-one held a gun against our heads and told us to join. We did it voluntarily. We are still veterans though desite the fact that we volunteered to look after our country's defence.

I haven't seen one person requesting any special hearing due to our veterans status either.

If our service is mentioned on ATS, it's usualy in relation to a thread. I don't feel there's a "need" to mention our service, but to many of us it was a big part of our lives, years that changed and shaped us. Yes we feel proud, and yes serving and ex-serving forces members will probably seem close in a way many people cannot ever fathom, buy hey, thats the way it's always been.

A question to the OP to finish off....if your country's borders were suddenly threatened in a major way, would you still refuse to call the men who look after you by defending it with their lives hereoes, just because they didn't serve in the World Wars?

CX.

Just read what the OP said. I agree with Slayer in that a vet is not always a hero, but has done time in a war zone. If you have served, you may know that the treatment that a basic trainee gets is worse then a prisoner, and would be considered abuse if it were done to people not willing to take it.

Also, just because you disagree about the reasons for the war does not change the face that before the war women were brutalized in Afghanistan and in Iraq people were put to death for exactly what you are doing now. People seem to forget that in the declaration of war we did point out that Iraq was not in compliance with UN weapons standards and the government actually did what many of you think that the NWO is aiming for, Mass Murder to name one crime of many. Please note that Saddam was tried and executed by his own people. Some countries have actually gone to war over less, like a football match.

en.wikipedia.org...

Ok, it was really a boarder war, but still in the grand scheme of things the US does seem to go to war based on real issues. Oh, and if you want to point out past wars of US aggression, well, ya. We did that, but so did every other nation at one point. We, the US, intervene in other nations affairs so much because on some levels we are expected to, and on other levels We cant make every one happy, so we try to do the greatest good for the greatest amount of people.

As for being offended about you trying to say that having a rocket blow up in my bomb dump, 30 yards away from me does not make me a vet. You are entitled to your opinions, but I am entitled to mine, and mine is that you seem to be saying this to get a rise out of people, and it is working. You also seem to be a disrespectful ass, but then you are more then entitled to that too. As others have expressed, I would like to see you tell VFW filled with older vets what you think of modern war fighters. I am sure that they will enlighten you as to where you should put your own head, and that maybe you should get off your high horse and except the fact that people like you have been around forever, discounting the modern war, and pointing to the glory of the past.

Please note that the reason that the draft is not used today, and the reason that wars are fought in such a distasteful manner to you today is because you the exact same men and women you seem to venerate. They noticed that being drafted did not help in times where the nation was not being directly threatened. They noticed that a single precise bomb could stop an entire city from being razed.

I would also like to point out that the solution 100 years ago to the Iraq and Afghan problems would be to purge every major population center of local resistance, and pay blood thirsty locals a bounty for every terrorist they brought back. Vets from the wars of today have to show almost super human constraint in the handling of war, where you have to wait until it is almost too late to kill someone who wants nothing more to turn the both of you into a pale mist.

Once again I am sorry for the wall of text, as before this topic gets me heated.

I think you are discusting...


it states on your profile you dont like those who stick up for their nation(no matter what),,,as well you make a thread about US healthcare system??,,,

what country(planet) are you from???

Your hero's are probly heavy metal rock bands.

And you should study read up on all the death in ww2 with Stalin killing millions of his own and china and japan,,,!!!!

Everyone works as a team, which makes them honored,,!!!!...

They gave their time and left their families,,

you should stick with threads where you found a crater hole in the moon!!!!

One can comment of their opinions but its an insult starting a thread such as yours,,,
why would you give a rats on our healthcare system and then insult our vets,,,and your other thread is a hole crater in the moon???

You are a troll,,!!!!

Want attention much OP? Here, I'll comment on your lil thread to make you feel important. Give me a break.

Originally posted by VelvetSplash
Surely if there's any forum on the internet where such an opinion is majority, it should be one like this.

Aren't there scores of threads and hundreds of posts about how wars are engineered for one vile end or another - arms sales, profit, money, oil, land etc.

The soldiers are the pawns in this war, the drones used against each other for the gain of the folks pulling the strings. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing honourable in being a mindless pawn, following orders regardless of motivation and reason. It's weak and soldiers are mindless murderers whos crimes are sanctioned by their corrupt leaders.

Your patriotism is misplaced. If humanity is going to evolve at all - isn't it time we stop listening to those who tell us the people on the other side of imaginery lines want to destroy us? Even if they do, it's only because they're also listening to their leaders telling them the same thing. And the people that allow these cretinous leaders to bring their desires to reality are the pawn soldiers who mindlessly carry out their bidding for them.

If there were no armies, the leaders who just slapping each other with their handbags, not bombing the f-ck out of thousands of innocent people year in year out.

Which is why everyone should boycott the armed forces and then when Cuba, Canada, Mexico, or whoever gets here first takes over, we'll all join and fight for our new country..lol.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I am only replying to the OP. I have personally known people that got into the military to do one thing, learn to use guns and kill people. (their own words) I have also heard stories from people in the military about horrible things done to innocent families in Viet Nam etc. I have also personally known real hero's that have fought and served for their country.

So.. you can get mad at the OP for using 11/11 to post his message and or get mad for the message in general and defend every person that served in the military or take every case as an individual. A few bad apples will not always rot the cart but being in the military doesn't make you an instant hero. As I said earlier, some are in the right reasons and some are not. I have known both. I also have family in the military. I do agree with the OP in general.


And to those who has served for the right reasons I salute you. Those in for the wrong reasons and following orders when you know in your heart it is dead wrong... well you have to deal with that someday yourself.

Peace.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Oxygen56]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Oxygen56]

dp. (again!)

[edit on 12-11-2009 by VelvetSplash]

Originally posted by thomasc83
Which is why everyone should boycott the armed forces and then when Cuba, Canada, Mexico, or whoever gets here first takes over, we'll all join and fight for our new country..lol.

You just proved my point by highlighting the imaginery borders and how those on the other side of it are out to "take over".

reply to post by Ulala


a thank you to the soldiers who are serving and have served is all anybody thought about. Nobody went looking for a freaking building to be named after them. Your little no thought OP calling out anybody who didn't serve in WW2 was a joke. Nobody deserves hero status just for serving. But they do deserve a thanks. They could have just as easily got a job a McDonalds and let the Taliban invade you. Or whomever the next "bad man" will be. You don't like US foreign policy? Come to America and change it. But hiding in virtual pussyland and talking down to those who served is weak to extreme. get a little bit of education so you know who to be mad at. Most people get a 5 on the respect meter, you sir get a zero.

Youre absolutely correct.
We are not Heroes...to you.
We are Heroes to our children, showing them the example of caring, taking a stand and volunteering for a held belief.
We are Heroes to our spouses, showing them the lengths we will go to take care of them, sacrifice for them.
We are Heroes to the lives we have saved, wither it was pulling a person up into a helicopter during Katrina or protecting a Afghan civilian from indiscriminate violence.
We are Heroes to the ones we work with, knowing fully well that they would give their lives for us too.

I have a couple of questions for you, what have you done in true, unconditional sacrifice for someone else?
Have you truly said to yourself with the utmost conviction, "I would give my life for..."?
Or are you just jealous of the circumference of the testicles that my fellow Soldiers/Veterans and I have?

To be honest, you dont have to answer, Im sure you already have a slew of responses sensitivities and excuses that have served you well in life when you were in the position to serve something other than yourself.

Signed,
A Veteran, not of WW2

"People sleep comfortably in their beds at night because rough men stand by ready to do violence on their behalf"

Our American readers are aware that the world did exist prior to World War's 1 and 2 right? You are aware that European's were fighting (and winning) wars and generally kicking ass centuries before America even existed right? The 2 Wars in the last century were, in the great scheme of things and history of the world, fck all. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan are just a pimple on the arse of human history - barely even qualify as "wars" really. I mean christ, even the French have won more wars in history than America and that's saying something.

White American's are basically just bastard step-children of European's anyway. You wouldn't even exist if it was not for European's. So please show some respect to your fathers.

Edit: Also, anyone who thinks "the taliban" or "al qaeda" or "terrorists" could have somehow invaded America are deluded and brainwashed beyond belief. These jokers managed to carry out 2 terrorist attacks on American soil in 15 years ffs. They are nowhere near a big enough threat to anyone to justify the subsequent invasions and slaughters in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also no veteran since WW2 has defended my freedoms in any way. If all the wars since 1945 were never fought, I'd still have the same number of freedoms than I do today, if not more.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Lurch]

Originally posted by MkUltraman
"People sleep comfortably in their beds at night because rough men stand by ready to do violence on their behalf"

For which they are paid handsomely along with many benefits such as free health care, housing, army discounts etc. A person working in army can't claim he is working for other people, he is earning his salary nothing more...nothing less. You do not do your work for free of cost.

Oh and I only thank or show respect to people who would do the some work without getting paid for it in any way...who will work selflessely for other people and nation without asking anything in return not who are getting fat salaries, free house and bonuses and discounts to do their job.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by December_Rain]

I served, deployed involuntarily, am a vet and all that... and I mostly agree.

Todays troops are sadly just expendable pawns of the empire elite, they're not fighting to preserve anything "American" or for a righteous good cause. Iraqis and Afghans were not begging us to save them, we're a clumsy non caring violent empire occupying their neighborhoods and ruining their lives.

All for what?, the elites agenda? that's no reason to give up your life.

We claim to bring democracy, rule of law and all that.. then lock people up with out cause, torture them and deny anything resembling due process. We also storm their houses, to be used as temporary housing, and evict them to the street at gun point in the middle of the night. We're poisoning their land with DU and committed blatant economic terrorism by reverting iraqs currency from the euro back to the monopoly money us dollar.

I can't understand why anyone would serve today and volunteer to sacrifice their lives for the criminal wars of the elite. If the jihad was advancing on San Diego or one grain of US soil.. those battling for us would be heroes and true defenders of freedom... going overseas to kill strangers based on us govt lies.. is BS, not heroic, and makes a mockery of taking an oath.

On top of all that, our oath taking military has totally failed us.. by failing to protect the constitution against domestic enemies.. our rights have been shat upon & eroded right under the noses of generations of those who swore to die defending the true American way of life... oath takers have become order followers regardless of how blatantly illegal or unconstitutional.

Regarding the iraq war, UN secretary general Kofi annan said it best: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal." .. yet not a single oath taking military leader displayed the testicular fortitude to defend the constitution by ordering his troops to stand down and not participate in an action deemed illegal by the UN... they bowed to one man ignoring their oath.

Todays US military "leaders" wouldn't know a REAL domestic enemy if one bit his face off the hallways of congress or the white house... I'd go as far as to say todays military's leaders are in collusion with the worst domestic enemies this nation has ever seen.

Nationalism + patriotism are reasons to take pride in things you had nothing to do with, and hate people you never met... both are phony tools of control and subjugation imo. If you truly support our troops, then you should support bringing them home from these illegal BS empire elitists acts of violence where they are fighting & dying for nothing that helps either America, or the American people.