To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
I apologize to the mods, but I have to do this once more because it is not having the desired effect.
I want to re-iterate a post I made earlier because I don't think it really penetrated the minds of anyone who relentlessly keep posting.

And reposting....

Here is a great perspective.

Enjoy
Staggering Information

OP has been online 2x (that I've seen) since writing that and has yet to address his thread. So, can't help but believe the intention was to post an inflammatory thread that he knew would get him a lot of attention (racking up those S/F) and sit back to let others do the arguing for him... OP appears to be an instigator...


[edit on 12-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by radio_for_peace


Are you sure about that? The respect part, as far as one can see from your comments, you do not have any respect what so ever for those whom serves in any countries armed forces. Whichever that country might be.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Laurauk]

reply to post by LadySkadi


I don't know the op, but, why would anyone want to "rack up s/f's"??

Am I missing something here? Seriously.

But I'll join you in saying: OP, you can jump in here anytime (I see you are currently online).



[edit on 12-11-2009 by Bombeni]

reply to post by LadySkadi


I think the o/p's agenda is to turn member against member on this thread, which to me is not suprising since alot off us seem to be at each others throats lately, (is why one vacated the ATS premises for a week), comes back, and nope nothing changes.

All in a day on ATS

To those who think I'm coming here all contrite and on bended knee to apologise for the original post ... think again. That I'll never do.

It's difficult to reply to so many responses in one nice bite size chunk. I've read all the replies, hostile and otherwise. Forgive me if I don't quote from your own post, it's not that I don't consider it relevant or worthy, it's simply impractical with the time I have available tonight.

The motivator for my original post here was GradyPhilpott's thread “Thank You To All You Who Have Served”. The tenth post in that thread was my own. In it I simply paid tribute to those who died in just wars, nothing particularly contentious in that.

But by page two, anyone with a dissenting opinion was being encouraged to go elsewhere, by other contributors and by Moderators (some moderating threads in which they had actively participated in, which as I understand is a no-no). And that's fair enough I suppose, for those who wished to pay tribute I guess it was unfortunate to see their own sincerely held contributions being obscured by those with radically different opinions.

And so I made a post of my own, little realising the furore it would generate. In retrospect I could've placed it in the Rant section of BTS ... in retrospect it might have been better for me to have done so, such has been the bad feeling caused. As to the timing of it, I doubt there was ever going to be a good time for such a thread. But if you didn't like it you had neither to read it or participate in it. That was your choice.

But I do stand by what I said.

It grates with me that some seem to hold the Armed Forces as being entirely beyond reproach, that they're somehow above criticism because “they do” whereas others “don't”. And I think it's disingenuous to link current day regional conflicts with those wars in the recent past where each and everyone was up against the most enormous odds and in which everyones participation was required to ensure national survival.

As to “the Veterans” I come to it from this angle. You, those who fought recently, can describe yourselves as a Veteran to your hearts content. But that doesn't make you one, despite your best attempts to tag onto the coattails of real heroes.

I class Veterans as being those who fought against the most terrible odds in wars of survival such as WW2. The Veterans of those wars have my greatest respect and I haven't said anything to the contrary. Those guys (and many women too) ensured we are free today. Those who protect liberty deserve nothing but the highest praise and I'm not shy in giving it either, both in word and deed.

But that isn't the case with Iraq & Afghanistan, is it ? Because they're not fighting for our freedoms and liberties in those conflicts, are they ? Quite what they're fighting for I really don't know and I'm sure it's a question they've asked of themselves and their superiors over the last few years. Do you become a Veteran because of your service in those conflicts ? No, I rather think you don't. You chose to join the army. Choice. Choice is the very thing the real Veterans enabled you to exercise. And that's the difference.

Should you be accorded praise or should your opinions be given special hearing because of your self appointed “Veteran” status ? No. They bloody well shouldn't. No-one held a gun to your heads to join up and unless you've buried your head in the sand over the last eight years it won't come as much of a surprise to learn that the conflicts into which you freely walked don't have universal support.

Not in my name.

And to assuage some of your concerns, I've walked the walk too in our own defence forces. Perhaps walked rather further than some of the statistically improbable self declared Veterans here, those who languish luxuriantly in the praise of the easily led in one thread yet who lose the plot altogether when the validity of their own service is questioned.

I'll never quite understand why some feel the continuing need to define themselves in online forums by their former service in the Armed Forces. And to them it is a need, a real need. For without that they have very little. Or perhaps it's a cultural difference, I've yet to see a European contributor here ... or a member from any other nation for that matter ... prostitute themselves in quite such a brazen fashion.

Anyway.

To those who sent messages of support I thank you. To those who flagged the thread or who starred the first post ... it wasn't requested or required, but is appreciated.

To those whores in a huff whose noses are out of joint ... it's been long overdue.

And I don't regret one word of it.

reply to post by Bombeni


History repeats itself does it not, each to thier own ignorance of what someone's fathers, grandfathers died for.

Well it is ATS after all nothing nowadays shocks me, what threads are posted on here, but this has to one of the most hurtfull. One has to say.

Most of the service men and women that I know, joined for a moral reason. Be it they felt it was their obligation to protect Canadians from terrorism, or they felt the Afgan mission was about liberation, or that escorting food and aide to remote civilian populations in war torn nations was the right thing to do.

Regardless of their reasons for joining, their reasons for enlisting for re-deployment were unanimous; the man to their left, and the women to their right. Its the people they served with that kept them going back. Wanting to help that Canadian you made friends with in basic get back to base safely.

As others have said, Vets and active duty members get one day a year; one day for much of the Western World to say thank you for the enormous sacrifices you and your family have made on our behalf.

Let them have it.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by InSpiteOf]

reply to post by Ulala


Then you have lost all the respect I had for you. I am sorry if I am warned for this, You Ulala are a idiot, as far as I am concerned, I do certainly hope none of your family, ancestors, fought in either world war 1 or world war 2, he or she would be turning in thier graves.

... You absolutely disgust me. If anytime god forbid, anyone in your family are killed or hurt, as an act off terroism, if it does happen again on the mainland UK. You just remember what you posted. I do hope you can live by what, you have posted, I for one could not.

reply to post by Bombeni

I wouldn't have that answer (the S&F) but mostly my point is that if a poster chooses to post knowing ahead of time that what is posted is going to be a controversial thread, than *I* feel the poster should stand ready to participate in said thread. I just find it quite curious that someone would do so and than disappear.

It's a hit and run, and I find it juvenile.

However, as I post this in answer to your query, I see the OP has finally made an appearance... so...
*shrugs*


[edit on 12-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by Ulala
I checked out your profile,and when I saw you from Europe it explains it all.Has any country won a war over there or do you just run your mouth and let someone else do the dirty work?

For a forigner to berate American vets is kind of like a cowerd calling the savior a war monger,Ya I know ,you complemented the WW2 vets but we are all the same,we belive in our country and sometimes get taken for a ride in these politcal wars.The thing Im sure you are not used to is backing the people that fight and die for there country no matter how corrupt our leaders can be.

So tell me ,when the Mualims take over Europe and instill Shira law who will stand by your side then,oh wait,youll talk them out of it and when that fails do what your ancestors did.........RUNNNNNNNNNNNN!

reply to post by Laurauk


Uh-huh, OP is living in Europe and we were good enough for his grandpa but not good enough for him. I bet you if China and let's see, Russia and North Korea banded together and decided to overtake Europe, he'd roll out the red carpet real fast.

Stands by what he says. That doesn't make him a man it makes him a ________ _________ (fill in the blanks).






[edit on 12-11-2009 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Bombeni


One will not agree nor disagree with your comments. . I think you know where I am comming from, if one does, one would obtain a warning. One certainly does not want that.

To those whores in a huff whose noses are out of joint ... it's been long overdue.

As for the O/P's last comment, I will take that as a personal attack to those whom have not supported his opnions of views, Just shows how low he will go really, shakes ones head at the mentality if this member.




[edit on 12-11-2009 by Laurauk]

Originally posted by Ulala
As to “the Veterans” I come to it from this angle. You, those who fought recently, can describe yourselves as a Veteran to your hearts content. But that doesn't make you one, despite your best attempts to tag onto the coattails of real heroes.

I class Veterans as being those who fought against the most terrible odds in wars of survival such as WW2. The Veterans of those wars have my greatest respect and I haven't said anything to the contrary. Those guys (and many women too) ensured we are free today. Those who protect liberty deserve nothing but the highest praise and I'm not shy in giving it either, both in word and deed.

No wonder he's delusional....

He's got Veterans confused with the word Heroes. [Figures]
I'm a vet. I've never considered myself a hero. My Grandfather, Father, my uncles and both of my brothers are veterans.

Now my son and two nephews are serving. My son came back from Iraq in March of this year and my nephews are in Afghanistan as I type. From your definition of "Veteran" there seems to be some confusion. Nope, no mention of heroes.


Veterans

A veteran is one who has served in the armed forces, especially one who has served in combat. It is especially applied to those who served for an entire career, usually of 20 years or more, but may be applied for someone who has only served one tour of duty. A common misconception is that only those who have served in combat or those who have retired from active duty can be called military veterans.

Veterans Day

Veterans Day is an annual American holiday honoring military veterans. A federal holiday, it is usually observed on November 11.

It is also celebrated as Armistice Day or Remembrance Day in other parts of the world

[edit on 12-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

Too bad the OP wouldn't have the balls to stand in front of a military group and say his peace.

As many here have said, NONE OF US who serve consider ourselves heros. In my case I served for almost 30 years and did the job asked of me, sometimes in places of the world no-one else wanted to be, but it was a job that my country asked me to do.

I find it very interesting that those who have never served a cause greater than themselves find it so easy to criticize those of us who have and still do serve.

I don't agree with the Iraq or Afghan wars either, BUT when i raised my hand in 1965 and gave my oath, I agreed to do as my elected officials and military commanders ordered.

If you aren't military you may not know that military personnel do not have the right to criticize or question the orders handed down.

reply to post by Ulala
You are quit a rant,did an American take your signifigant other from you?Hows that for Politically correct.

Maybe your European contibuters don't say anything about being a vet because you all have had someone else win your wars for you,you don't really have anything to be proud of now do you slick.

As for being proud we are American vets,between that and the cowboys left in this country thats about all the true American culture we have left after people like you immagrate here.



[edit on 12-11-2009 by Battleline]

reply to post by CT_Flyboy


Should not matter where you work, serve, what ever you want to call it. Any prefession which, involves putting their own lifes at risk, to save others, are heros in my opinion.

As in any job you take orders, you have to obey them, in oher professions if you do not agree with the Order, you are free to leave, the difference in the armed forces, you disobey a direct order, you are either sent to the glass house, or a demoted and discharged, without any honours what so ever..

All of you are hopeless. And maybe I'm just as bad for assuming that at some point you would have enough common sense to realize that you're being manipulated into participating in this thread.

You're not going to change the OP's stance, and maybe, judging from some of the reactions that I've seen on this thread...MAYBE HE HAS A POINT.

Personally, I respect all those who have served in the armed forces...but, I certainly don't agree with them serving under the last 2 administrations. As soon as 911 happened, people jumped on a bandwagon without really looking at the evidence, or,...lack thereof.

Those who can be so easily fooled into defending this country without adequately weighing the facts are the types that do more harm to the image of our military than helping.

reply to post by Ulala


You're more "American" then some of the Americans on this board, and I thank you for stating the facts. Although few will recognize the genius of your postings, I understand the message you're trying to convey and appreciate it.

This is coming from the last child of a WWII vet who was part of a smoke outfit and gunner in Germany.

R.I.P "Pop"

[edit on 12-11-2009 by EMPIRE]

I class Veterans as being those who fought against the most terrible odds in wars of survival such as WW2. The Veterans of those wars have my greatest respect and I haven't said anything to the contrary. Those guys (and many women too) ensured we are free today. Those who protect liberty deserve nothing but the highest praise and I'm not shy in giving it either, both in word and deed.

One has a comment to make!

One takes back what one has said, even to apologise, now he has summarise what he was getting at! I for one can now see where he is comming from. One just whishes she could have read that comment earlier before posting my own opinons and thoughts onthe thread or topic but I will stand by my oinions and thoughts with regards to those whom died for us all during world war 1 ans world war 2!

He is targeting if I am wrong someone correct me, those whom are dying in todays warfare within the middle east, If I am wrong correct me again.




[edit on 12-11-2009 by Laurauk]