why do "palestinians" say they have a right to israel's land

reply to post by bettermakings


I haven't gone through all the pages of this thread yet, but I need to single out this post by bettermakings.

To be blunt, what he (she?) is saying here is blatantly idiotic.

Yes, Gaza and the West bank are crapholes. What Bettermakings is missing, is that this is not through the fault of the Palestinians who live there. Just as the conditions at the Pine Ridge reservation are not the fault of the Lakota, just as the conditions of the Warsaw Ghetto were not the fault of the Polish Jews.

Gaza and the west Bank were mapped out for the Arabs in the UN partition plan specifically because they offered nothing of value. Gaza is desert, the West bank is rock. Since that resolution, both regions have been further reduced, refugee populations have grown, and the birth rate hasn't really slowed much.

So you've got a whole lot of people crammed into two tiny patches of some of the worst real estate on earth to start with.

Next, let's put Israel into the picture. Whatever your feelings on this conflict, the plain fact is that Israel is the one with all the power. it controls the Palestinians through a series of checkpoints, by political interference, by land theft, and by violence. What you end up with is a Bantustan - a politically powerless, impoverished, resource-free region where outside forces control your life - litrally.

Of course West bank and Gaza are crapholes. Pre-Mandate Palestine was a pretty nice place, though. Which is why most of it was handed over to European colonists.

Bettermakings' argument is, basically, "we can't let them be free, because they might do something we don't like" with stress on the "might"

[edit on 20-11-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


I also did not read all the posts. Sadly. Only your last post. Few corrections:
Gaza is not desert. Look at it in Google Earth. In evicted Israeli settlements in Gaza 15 percent of total agricultural production of Israel was grown. And it was tiny part of Gaza.
And West Bank is not rock. Both Jews and Arabs grow crops there. It is not as fertile as lots of other areas, but it is not barren. Again, from Google Earth you can look for green patches in the area.
By the way - Gaza (especially) and West Bank are in worse shape because Palestinian leaders are engaged in fighting Israelis and not in building Palestine. Priorities, priorities ,priorities. As an example - Israel is out of Gaza for almost a decade. Sewers in Gaza are anti-sanitarian and poison land and people. To fix it millions are needed. And yet Hamas got tens of thousand or rockets (sorry - you call them firecrackers) and sewers are not fixed.
If you feel more comfortable pointing at Israel - fine. But people in Gaza lived much better when Israel was there and it is a fact.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


If you'd care to read some of my earlier posts you might pick up some knowledge.
Here is a brief video about rocket attacks, clearing up one of Israel's typically fabricated claims.


How are Palestinians to fix their sewerage or anything without money or jobs.
Even when it is donated to them, Israel hinders entry.
For example; when your former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney recently tried to deliver medical aid, even she too was attacked.

When she had the integrity to stand up and ask Rumsfeld where the Pentagon Missing Trillion$ went under the eyes of Pentagon Comptroller Zionist Rabbi Dov Zakheim; you'd think Americans would applaud her but instead the (American(?!!)) Israel Lobby made sure to silence her.

While your poor get poorer, can't pay their medicals, loose their homes, you have bailed out banks, waged wars for oil interests, sent your troops out with 2nd rate protective clothing and vehicles, yet some 'Americans' have unwavering support for sending billions annually to Israel so it can CONTINUE IT'S EXPANSION into Palestinian land.

DO YOU KNOW that there are 250,000 - 500,000 Israelis living in so called 'settlements' outside of Israel in Palestine????

reply to post by resonance


If God wanted us to know that the Jews were entitled to that land and were his chosen people, then he would let all of us know it. It would be encoded into our DNA and there would be no doubt about it. Why would a father love one of his children over the others and allow them to kill each other over his ambiguous intentions towards one of them? The Jews who wrote the Bible declared themselves God's chosen.

And while some of you Americans are complaining about the Iranian Islamic revolution, look back almost 2 more decades at what you did to them with YOUR OPERATION AJAX.
It was you that brought about the rise of the religious zealots, Former President Mossadeq had it all under control until you forced the Shah back onto them, and inspired the religious fundies to rise.
It is you that also support the brutal house of Saud, for a promise to sell all oil in US$.
It is you that funded the Taliban.

You think it's only Sth American oppressive regimes that you support; no you fund oppressive regimes all over the world, including Israel.

Originally posted by groingrinder
reply to post by resonance

 

If God wanted us to know that the Jews were entitled to that land and were his chosen people, then he would let all of us know it. It would be encoded into our DNA and there would be no doubt about it. Why would a father love one of his children over the others and allow them to kill each other over his ambiguous intentions towards one of them? The Jews who wrote the Bible declared themselves God's chosen.

I couldn't have said it better myself

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

I also did not read all the posts. Sadly. Only your last post. Few corrections:

Nothing you bring up in this argument actually counters what I was saying.

Gaza is not desert. Look at it in Google Earth. In evicted Israeli settlements in Gaza 15 percent of total agricultural production of Israel was grown. And it was tiny part of Gaza.

The colonists - that's the word you're looking for, not "settlers" - also had the advantage of being able to buy fertilizer, equipment, glass for greenhouses. They could then sell those vegetables. Most of them received subsidies from the Israeli government to help defray costs. Obviously, Palestinians get none of that. To pile it up, when they left their colonies, the Israelis dismantled and destroyed as much as they could - would you leave thousands of dollars of equipment to the people moving in? Of course, all you heard about on the news are the three greenhouses that angry Palestinians smashed up. In the years since, Israeli attacks have often targeted watr infrastructure, orchards, and livestock. In addition to the blockade, the results are obvious.

And West Bank is not rock. Both Jews and Arabs grow crops there. It is not as fertile as lots of other areas, but it is not barren. Again, from Google Earth you can look for green patches in the area.

Yes, it's not as fertile as other areas. Namely, those areas that were stolen from the Arabs in the partition. Thanks for your agreement

By the way - Gaza (especially) and West Bank are in worse shape because Palestinian leaders are engaged in fighting Israelis and not in building Palestine. Priorities, priorities ,priorities.

Building Palestine with what? That's the entire point of my post, buddy. The Palestinians suffer a huge lack of resources, have no autonomy, and their condition keeps worsening due to Israeli theft.

As an example - Israel is out of Gaza for almost a decade. Sewers in Gaza are anti-sanitarian and poison land and people. To fix it millions are needed. And yet Hamas got tens of thousand or rockets (sorry - you call them firecrackers) and sewers are not fixed.

I imagine it's a whole lot easier to smuggle rockets through an underground crawlspace than it is to squeeze sewer infrastructure through there. And of course, if the Gazans fix up their water treatment facilities, Israel will just blow it up again. Besides, it'd just be for decoration, since the Gazan palestinians aren't going to get all the chemicals they need for proper water treatment - most of those chemicals are rather dangerous, y'know.

If you feel more comfortable pointing at Israel - fine. But people in Gaza lived much better when Israel was there and it is a fact.

Well, yeah, Israeli colonists in Gaza lived better. The Palestinians were subject to murder, theft, abuse, and all the other charming delinquencies of the Israeli people.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


So you agree that Gaza is not desert and West bank not rock. Great. Then lets move to other points in your new post:

The colonists - that's the word you're looking for, not "settlers" - also had the advantage of being able to buy fertilizer, equipment, glass for greenhouses. They could then sell those vegetables. Most of them received subsidies from the Israeli government to help defray costs. Obviously, Palestinians get none of that

Colonist or settlers or whatever you call them were Israeli citizens. Thus Israeli government gave them subsidies and created conditions in which they can grow a lot of food for Israel and export. I would expect Palestinian leadership to make same effort for their own people. And this is exactly my point. Israel is building its on country and Palestinians are fighting Israel. This is how it goes. Nobody is building Palestine ,and i do not understand why Israeli government should worry about Palestinians more then their own freely elected Hamas government. Hamas should create conditions in which Palestinians could prosper - and ceasing to harass its aggressive, criminal ,genocidal, racist, child shooting ,sewers bombing ,land stealing ,evil and ctr neighbor is first thing in the list, me thinks.

Of course, all you heard about on the news are the three greenhouses that angry Palestinians smashed up. In the years since, Israeli attacks have often targeted watr infrastructure, orchards, and livestock. In addition to the blockade, the results are obvious.

Yes. i heard about what Palestinians smashed - and it does not end in "three greenhouses". I also heard about Palestinian attacks ,rocket factories , kidnappings and charges near the fence. I did not hear about efforts to repair the sewers, sorry. You laugh at rockets and its damage? Well, if there would be no rockets and 1(one) Israeli soldier would be released - Israel would not have any more excuses to continue the blockade, now would it?
However Gaza leaders never said that they would stop the rockets.
If they would have all the resources in the world, it will not help - it would all go to fighting Israel, not building their own country. This is the problem.

Well, yeah, Israeli colonists in Gaza lived better. The Palestinians were subject to murder, theft, abuse, and all the other charming delinquencies of the Israeli people.

I take it for granted that you never being in Gaza in 1990s?
Once again i urge you to look at photos of Gaza in Google Earth. It was not what you think.

I am very happy to see that people are starting to wake up to the war crimes being committed by the government of Israel. The construction of a far right wing judaic supremacy tied wit zionism has caused much discomfort and problems to the middle east which in turn affects all of us.

People are now looking towards the 'traditional orthodox' jews to which the majority hate israel with a passion. 'J-Street' in the US is the new Jewish lobbiest group, and absolutely dispise Israel and what it has done to the palestinians.

These people have even said to be supporters of Hamas, Hezbollah, and huge fans of Iran.

What does this mean?

Well it shows that people even if they have the same religious values are allowed to think independantly based on history and scientific fact and experiences.

Fact is that it is the ones who stick to the traditional beleifs are always the ones to which no harm comes to another human being. Traditional Judaism and jews accept that god disowned them, but they still persue in for his affection and forgiveness.

Christianity was a political means built by the roman empire and no such entity as the christ existed and was merely a pagan story of the rising and setting of the sun.

Now that I have said that, and someone else has also made it clear 'if' a god exists and the jews were apparently the chosen people he would have encoded it into their DNA.

Unfortunatley, the self-centered right with zealots have little to understand, especially when it comes to our DNA.

We all have the same basic structure, there is nothing different except our genetic fingerprint of what makes an individual.

To not understand that our DNA is made up of something greater, and also holds to the mysteries of the missing link, and a gap in history to which it would frighten most people.

To put it simple.

Most modern Religions were based on the stories based on the zodiac or the sun.

True traditional religions teach something much scarier.

reply to post by shrike071


Thank you for the map. It's time these "Israel has rights to the land because God gave it to them" followers to give back the America's to the people God Gave It To!!!

Or wait, they don't wan that now do they? No it's OK to take land for them. And those nations they took it from don't have any fights to have it back.

Why don't they stop all the BS and just come out and say they are Zionist?

Israel's claim is not valid anyway. Ask an othodox jew and he will show you that the claim is false because the jews would not follow Gods laws so he exiled them. They are supposed to remain is exile as their punishment for apostacy.

Go do some reading people.

#
True Torah Jews Against Zionism

... 'Israel', and that to equate traditional Judaism with Zionism endangers Jews worldwide. ... Orthodox Jews Protest Against Netanyahu and His State ...
www.jewsagainstzionism.com - 29k - Cached
#
Jews Against Zionism

Learn why all Jews do not support the so-called state of Israel. ... Zionism. What is Zionism? Zionists do not Represent Jews. Three Strong Oaths ...
www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/index.cfm - 29k - Cached
#
Zionism Against Jews

Recently "Jews Against Zionism" group held its inaugural meeting. ... In their own words Jews Against Zionism describe themselves as: ...
www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html - 58k - Cached

If you go thru the ATS thread(ink given below), you will find the Secret Israeli Defence Millitary database showing full extent of illegal settlements.

According to Haaretz, "An analysis of the data reveals that, in the vast majority of the settlements - about 75 percent - construction, sometimes on a large scale, has been carried out without the appropriate permits or contrary to the permits that were issued,", and "The database also shows that, in more than 30 settlements, extensive construction of buildings and infrastructure (roads, schools, synagogues, yeshivas and even police stations) has been carried out on private lands belonging to Palestinian West Bank residents."

Here is the lik to the thread (You will find the link to database there itself):-
www.abovetopsecret.com...

God gave the native americans thier land also......

so, well......
maybe we should all move back to our homelands, and let them have it???
we can start by sending all the decendants of the slave back to africa, I am sure they will love it there...
it might have been Isreal's land, a long, long time ago, before two invasions by neighbors scattered them abroad....before rome came in and did their thing, ect....
but in 1949, it was inhabited by the palestians, who I imagine were a mix of jews, arabs, christians, as well as more than likely some of roman decent ect....

it seems to me, that if you insist on Isreal's right to this land based on was written in a book long, long ago, then you would also have to accept the right of all those other groups who've been forced off their land...like the native american.

Who here forgets that before 'Christdom' there was the Jews? And didn't they have a knack for war and conquering? Weren't they tied into Rome, in a hidden fashion? Ok, now to 'Christdom'. After Rome did it's deeds with meshing pagan, saturn, idol worship, ect. with 'Christ's Follower's Messages', weren't they a lovely bunch of killers? When the Muslim religion surfaced... wait, here it is again. Weren't they a lovely group of conquering, pillaging, w****s? (I'll give you a hint. they like fallacious acts)

One only needs to do some history to find out about conquering and war. Each of the three, that being Jewish, Muslim, and Christian, have BIG histories about murder and pillaging.

Picking sides? Who wants to pick one of those sides?

As for Palestine, when the Jews were being driven out of their homes, before any councils had decided to take land from the Palestinians and give it "to the Jews" didn't the people in Palestine open their arms and let them live in their houses, their cities, and markets? We're dealing with people here. People being humane. It wasn't until the rulers decided to take action and separate (in more than one form) the land and divvy it up. Then came the persuaders, the mouth-men of the rulers.

do we not remember what is imprinted in BIG letters inside the inner sanctum of skull and bones? WAR.

Fighting over which group (of the two, Jew and Muslim) is right will always end badly. Each has enough vague 'Holy Scripture' to support all out war against nearly anyone, while contradicting itself to say that all that is adove is about forgiveness and love.

I certainly see it enough, as though it is clear as day. Manipulation. Arguing about which 'side is right' is proof of your manipulation. Where the string leads, there is a finger.

edit: And said finger is probably the middle.

third edit: People who argue about who has rights to land are the same sheeple who are guided into mob frenzy. "Crucify him!" came from average people after the mouthmen were done.

[edit on 11/22/2009 by mynameisjuan]

reply to post by shrike071


Right on! The land belongs to the Palestinians, simple and clearly.

Creation of the State of Israel

T H E F R A N K L Y N R E P O R T

The State of Israel is Created
The end of World War II led to the rapid disappearance of French and British influence throughout the Arab world, as the rapid eclipse of the old imperial powers transformed the politics not only of Asia but of the Middle East and Africa as well. The mandated territories granted by the League of Nations after World War I were granted independence. These included Syria and Jordan in 1946 and Lebanon in 1943. The mandate in Palestine was liquidated, and a Jewish homeland -- promised after World War I but never granted -- was created in 1948: the State of Israel.

The realization of the full horrors of the genocide of the European Jews had led to growing demands for a Jewish state. British forces stood in the middle between Palestinian Arabs and Jewish settlers and immigrants, but a prolonged guerrilla conflict and growing American pressure forced the British to abandon the area. Israel was established by compelling Arab acquiescence, but the consequence has been six decades of violence. The surrounding Arab states fought Israel unsuccessfully in 1948 and again in 1967 and 1973.

In 1956 Israel found unlikely allies in Britain and France in the attempt to forcibly prevent the new nationalist regime of Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser from taking over the Suez Canal. The Suez crisis was the last flourish of old imperial Europe. American and Soviet Union pressure ended this European operation, making it finally evident that the long period of European hegemony that had dominated the wider world for two centuries was gone for good.

I for one am sick and tired of America blindly supporting Israel, no matter what they do to the Palestinian people. There is a very large school of though that is of the opinion the famous "Holocaust" never happened, but was made up so that the world, feeling sorry for the poor Jewish people, created them a State. There is also a school of thought that thinks the Semitic Race was created by the Reptilians, and that is why Hitler tried to destroy them as a people.

I do not necessarily agree with these schools of thought, but I do know that Israel is a Nuclear Power, and Israel practices Terrorism, and the Mossad, the Israeli Intelligence spies on everyone, including America, and, in disguise, commits acts of terror and blames it on others. Time to stop supporting terror, America, tell your leaders, vote out of office anyone who supports Israel.

Palestinian song about their country (In English)






[edit on 22-11-2009 by autowrench]

We can debate this issue till the second coming but here is how I see it.
Give the land to Israel.

Why?
Because all the Jews want is a small strip of land, while the Muslims are wanting to take over the world.

Originally posted by Alxandro
We can debate this issue till the second coming but here is how I see it.
Give the land to Israel.

Why?
Because all the Jews want is a small strip of land, while the Muslims are wanting to take over the world.

That small strip of land doesn't belong to the race your mentioned, neither does it belong to Israel as explained here:-
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by December_Rain


Never mind the small strip of land, what about the rest of the world?
Who owns that?

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Colonist or settlers or whatever you call them were Israeli citizens. Thus Israeli government gave them subsidies and created conditions in which they can grow a lot of food for Israel and export. I would expect Palestinian leadership to make same effort for their own people.

With what?! I don't think you're catching on here, man.

And this is exactly my point. Israel is building its on country and Palestinians are fighting Israel.

Israel has two advantages that the Palestinians don't - free money from the rest of the world (especially the US) and complete immunity when it comes to illegal land theft. I'm sure it's easy to build your country up when you're using other peoples' money and other people's land to do so.

Of course, it's not as if Israel hasn't been busy fighting hte Palestinians. They're hardly innocents in this fight.

This is how it goes. Nobody is building Palestine ,and i do not understand why Israeli government should worry about Palestinians more then their own freely elected Hamas government. Hamas should create conditions in which Palestinians could prosper

And given what they have to work with, Hamas has done pretty good with that. Which is why they beat Fatah in the first place.

and ceasing to harass its aggressive, criminal ,genocidal, racist, child shooting ,sewers bombing ,land stealing ,evil and ctr neighbor is first thing in the list, me thinks.

That's not really an option for the Palestinians, unfortunately.

Yes. i heard about what Palestinians smashed - and it does not end in "three greenhouses". I also heard about Palestinian attacks ,rocket factories , kidnappings and charges near the fence. I did not hear about efforts to repair the sewers, sorry.

That's the American media for you. Arabs are the new indians.

You laugh at rockets and its damage? Well, if there would be no rockets and 1(one) Israeli soldier would be released - Israel would not have any more excuses to continue the blockade, now would it?
However Gaza leaders never said that they would stop the rockets.

You're a liar.

Hamas and Israel did come to a cease-fire in 2008. Hamas would halt its attacks and stop others from attacking, and Israel would open the border crossings. Hamas stopped its attacks and seriously stepped up policing of the border area and delivered harsh punishments to the people they caught. Rocket attacks from Gaza dropped off hugely, into the single digits - The police can't be everywhere, after all.

Israel never opened the border crossings though. Israel also continued its attacks within Gaza, bombing tunnels beneath the Egyptian border, and several buildings in Gaza city, in addition to the usual policy of "kill or kidnap anyone near our border."

Hamas wised up that its partner in the cease fire was actively breaking the agreement that had been reached, and started shooting back, and quite reasonably decided to not renew the ceasefire when it expired in November. Would you renew a contract with someone who had already broken it?

Of course, Israel has free access to western media and Hamas ha none. So we got stories of these ebbil ebbil ay-rabs breaking the cease-fire. And then Israel massacred 1,700 Gazans and leveled entire portions of numerous towns and cities and people like you batted your eyes and sighed in admiration for the valiant Israelis.

If they would have all the resources in the world, it will not help - it would all go to fighting Israel, not building their own country. This is the problem.

I thought you were arguing that they did have all the resources in the world. Now you're saying that they don't, and what's more, that they shouldn't. Pick a position and stick with it.

I take it for granted that you never being in Gaza in 1990s?
Once again i urge you to look at photos of Gaza in Google Earth. It was not what you think.

I have google earth, thanks. I suggest you follow your own advice on that idea.

Originally posted by Alxandro
We can debate this issue till the second coming but here is how I see it.
Give the land to Israel.

Why?
Because all the Jews want is a small strip of land, while the Muslims are wanting to take over the world.

Problem is, the land that the Israelis (not "the jews") want happens to belong to someone else.

All I want is your car. You shouldn't have any problem with just giving me hte keys. If you don't, you don't get to complain when I mug you and steal it anyway.