So you still believe the official story?, page 4
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 14 times


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 12:32 AM by Lasheic
reply to post by impressme



I took a glance at your two conspiracy web sites and looked at who, how, what in their debating forum and I find it mostly GL who are running the show. Both web sites scoff at most conspiracies theory.


That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. If the 9/11 Truth movement proponents are in any way concerned with the actual truth of what happened - then they have to follow the evidence to it's ultimate and inevitable conclusions. Even if those conclusions end up confirming the OS, and disproving the CTs. If you're not willing follow the evidence, even to that conclusion should such be the case - then you're not interested in the truth at all. Such would be a strong indication that you care only for reinforcing pre-established biases, and formally divorced from reality.

However, if the evidence for a conspiracy truly is there - then no argument raised by skeptics and debunkers will be able to falsify it. It will be demonstrable, and establish a concordance with everything else we know about the event. It may not be enough to convince anyone just yet, but it will be a good starting point with established credibility.

The purpose of proposing a CT to a skeptics board is to try to eliminate confirmation bias. They have no love or attachment to the 9/11 CTs - and they will gleefully pick apart every conceivable error, oversight, logical fallacy, miscalculation, misinterpretation, misunderstanding, etc that you may make. You don't get that kind of criticism here on ATS. The theories proposed here are not properly stress tested to see if they actually hold up to scrutiny.

Confining the discussion of the theory to only those who will agree with it without due scrutiny and the oft uninformed general public will inhibit the correction of errors, or worse - insulate them, and will only ever serve to galvanize false premises for little but the sake of comfortable personal fantasy. It fundamentally sabotages the "truth" movement from within.


"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry". -- Thomas Paine


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 12:50 AM by Roid_Rage27
Originally posted by The_Zomar
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
All right, here's one that comes to mind-

Q: Why on EARTH would anyone ever stage some insanely complex faked terrorist attack just so they could invade some worthless toilet of a country like Afghanistan?

A: You're seeing gov't conspiracies behind the 9/11 attack becuase you want to see gov't conspiracies behind the 9/11 attack, and you don't particularly care how absurd they sound.


Real A: Well larry silverstein put a massive insurance policy on the world trade center the month before 9-11 specifically regarding terrorism. Did he know something was going to happen? Larry got his cash, the government got their war. Patriot act passed. We lost our freedom.

Now let me ask you a question GoodolDave,

Do you really believe people living in a cave pulled off that "insanely complex terrorist attack" that you just admitted it was?

...Really?

Ok say for a second you were right and some cavemen outsmarted FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, Air Force, (all other military for that matter),... then why the HELL are we paying these people BILLIONs in tax dollars. If CAVEMEN can complete this attack.... Just image what a GOVERNMENT could do.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by The_Zomar]


Hmm...I think he's got you there Dave.

The military and NATO have been protecting us for DECADES. This "plot" was a cakewalk to stop, but it wasn't. Hell when a Cessna goes off course they send up a couple of F-16's.

Come on, the way the buildings fell is an great indication that they had some kind of explosives. Don't be lame and try debate that. Only explosives can create the fine dust that littered NY that day and ravaged people's respiratory system. Don't even get me started on the collapses onto themselves. That's just rudimentary physics. I think everyone understands the path of least resistance concept.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:46 AM by impressme
reply to post by Lasheic


Most of those who believe in the OS simply refuse to believe in any other possibilities regardless of what scientific evidences, eyewitness, or testimonies you produce. You cannot debate with people who have already made up their mind and our not willing to change.

I understand what you are saying and I have to agree with you, yes, you are right in your statement. Finding people with an open mind that can think outside the box, to have a real debate who truly understand all side of the 911 issues is hard to find don’t you think.

You are obviously familiar with these two web sites, have you seen the OS proven true? I think once we can prove the OS is a lie which I believe we have then, it leave nothing but conspiracies theories because, the all the real evidences is gone and no government or military official are willing to even talk about it. So what do we have? A grand cover-up just like JFK. The real perpetrators in the old administration are gone and have covered their tracts very well they had eight years to do it.

The truth will come out one day but the sad thing is, you and I will not live to see it and perhaps are children won’t either. When it does come out there will be no one to hold accountable because everyone involve will already be dead.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 07:03 AM by john124
reply to post by GoodOlDave


The "insanely complex terrorist attack" bit was in reference to the convoluted story that the conspiracy theorists are putting out. Apparently, the gov't was able to find mindlessly loyal yet highly trained drones to sneak in and secretly plant controlled demolitions in a heavily occupied skyscraper without anyone noticing, all with the sheer perfection of a supernatural act and without anyone leaving any evidence or whistleblowers, and then managed to organize two passenger jets and crash them into the towers to cover up the controlled demolitions, all to create a false flag operation to invade Iraq...by framing Afghanistan.

Plus, they apparently dug a hole in the middle of nowhere out in Shanksville to fool us into thinking a passenger jet crashed there, and then turned around and launched a cover up to conceal the hole they dug in order to fool us. Oh, yeah, we apparently launched a cruise missile into the Pentagon, planted piles of manufactured aircraft wreckage all over the Pentagon lawn in the blink of an eye, and hired hordes of mindlessly loyal fake witnesses to report they saw a plane, despite the fact the secret conspirators already had two or more real passenger jets earmarked to be crashed into buildings under their complete control. All this, from a gov't that can't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane victims in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels.

Good grief, the gov't agents staging all these secret conspiracies sound like a bunch of stoned fifteen year old kids. I'm completely open to the possibility there was some gov't scheming behind the scenes somewhere...but jeez, THIS it certainly ain't.


Hmmm, a nice summary of 9/11 truther's absurd line of thought.





reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 07:12 AM by spikey
Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Q: Why on EARTH would anyone ever stage some insanely complex faked terrorist attack just so they could invade some worthless toilet of a country like Afghanistan?
A: You're seeing gov't conspiracies behind the 9/11 attack becuase you want to see gov't conspiracies behind the 9/11 attack, and you don't particularly care how absurd they sound.



Real Answers
A(1): Gas pipeline..a proposed gas pipeline, worth trillions p/a in revenue, planned to be crossing Afghanistan.

A(2): Opium..to control (yes, control - not stop) the production and distribution of Opium - worth Billions p/a in revenue.

A(3): Arms..Worth Billions/Trillions since war began.

A(4): Draconian 'security' measures set up from governments around the world..forcefully control world population and greatly reduce individual and group freedoms.

A(5): A controllable 'puppet' government in the region. Perfect for staging action against other nations in the region, and worth Multi-millions/billions in reconstruction and 'security', handy for lucrative bribes concerning the opium trade too.

I think if you consider the few 'off the cuff' answers i've given above, any one of them is a huge inducement to unscrupulous elements in power, to go to war.

Quite apart from the reasons given, there is the fact that a large amount of the official 'facts'...are NOT factual at all.

There are myriad examples of out and out lies, half-truths, inconsistencies and discrepancies in the record...any rational thinking person, upon examining the circumstances of that day and the particulars of the official reports (issued years later), should come to the conclusion that at the very LEAST the report is erroneous, and at WORST a tissue of lies.

Governments around the world HAVE deliberately injured and killed their own citizens...many times throughout recent history.

There are SO MANY examples of this, that i would not have enough time to supply every publicly available instance here. The information is out there, available for anyone to find...if you can be bothered to learn the truth instead of playing some internet forum 'oneupmanship' scenario.

Northwoods is a PRIME example of just one level of public deception and extreme propaganda the US government is capable of and willing to consider implementing should it serve it's purposes.

It illustrates that operations such as these have been and are planned, have been and are instigated upon authorization from above, and so count as a very strong indicator that the questioned official version and suspected conspiratorial events of 9/11 are a very real possibility, not at all beyond the scope or capability of governments.

The reason it did not go ahead, is a certain US president vetoed the plan, and was subsequently assassinated..

If you really are genuine in wanting to know whether or not there are official 'untruths' (And i'm being very generous there!) surrounding 9/11, you could do no worse than spending a few weeks researching all of the events.

Saying it's rubbish simply because you or someone else cannot fathom a nefarious reason for it, is nonsensical. Because you don't know the reason, it doesn't imply for a moment that there isn't/wasn't a reason.
It simply means you either don't know it, or don't want to know it...either way, facts are facts.







[edit on 7/11/2009 by spikey]


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 07:29 AM by spikey
reply to post by john124


Deny ignorance??!!

You and people of your ilk (read ignorant AND intellectually LAZY) use this forum not to discover truth, but to reinforce pig-ignorance.

I'd take copernicus' recommendation and do some reading and research before posting on a subject you know little about.

It makes me wonder how most of you 'yes' people survive in the real world.



reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:08 AM by john124
reply to post by spikey


You have to admit the post I quoted was rather funny and does sum it all up. Where's the consistency of what really happened from truthers?


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:17 AM by Seventh
Originally posted by spikey
reply to post by john124


Deny ignorance??!!

You and people of your ilk (read ignorant AND intellectually LAZY) use this forum not to discover truth, but to reinforce pig-ignorance.

I'd take copernicus' recommendation and do some reading and research before posting on a subject you know little about.

It makes me wonder how most of you 'yes' people survive in the real world.


QFT.

Just two of the many (seclusive to 9/11 only) anomalies on record for all to see that day.....



You will find here as stated by many posters, the guys that back up or try to enforce the OS have nothing to do whatsoever with finding out the truth, the truth can clearly be seen in those pictures above, if anyone cannot see what is wrong in them, then there is no helping them, the main reason I cba posting here anymore.

I have yet to see any conclusive evidence backing up the OS whatsoever, however I have noticed more than enough loyalists labelling us as nutjobs, over emphasising certain aspects but have very little or no evidence backing this up, tarnishing threads with cookie cutter *twoofers* are there to be ridiculed crap, etc etc.

In the nutshell - There is more evidence than is healthy that shows the OS is flawed, incorrect, backed up by fear and lies, and supported by people who cannot disprove the truth seekers, but instead they try the damnest to make these people look like raving idiots, for even daring to suggest that the OS does not add up.

Unfortunately that is all you will find here.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:25 AM by john124
reply to post by Seventh


Just another case of seeing what you want to see, rather than evidence for a wild claim.

The bottom left photo doesn't show every piece of the structure that fell down below the impact point. So how does it prove the piece at the top right cannot be severed in that way during the collapse?

Can you prove that the structure should only break at the edges of the bonded together strips, and that the top right piece is in fact from above the impact zone?

[edit on 7-11-2009 by john124]


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:30 AM by Seventh
Originally posted by john124
reply to post by Seventh


Just another case of seeing what you want to see, rather than evidence for a wild claim.


And yet another great example proving my case...

1). There are two aspects there for you to explain.

2). Did you attempt to to do this?.

3). Or label both aspects as `What I want to see`.

I rest my case, unless of course you explain how half length bonded together sections managed to have dead straight cuts, thus every other section was cut.

There is evidence in those pictures of two anomalies, explain them.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:32 AM by john124
reply to post by Seventh


I edited it shortly after, but before your posting.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:36 AM by Seventh
Originally posted by john124
reply to post by Seventh


I edited it shortly after, but before your posting.


There are 1000` upon 1000`s of pictures showing cut sections of the exterior panels - in both stages of collapse and their resting places on the ground.

How did a collapse due to structural failure manage to severe whole rows of these sections with dead straight cuts?.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:46 AM by Seventh
reply to post by john124


Whilst we are on this subject John you may like to try and describe why......

1). The truss seat fixings have been removed.

2). The visible ends showing the cuts, do not show signs of being cut with oxy-acetylene torches, there is no slag nor 360 scorch marks.



Wild claims you say!!!.


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 09:52 AM by spikey
reply to post by john124


Not at all.

I find NOTHING funny surrounding the events of 9/11 and the torrent of draconian 'security' measures rushed into place and the wars that have resulted since that date.

Are there people who believe what officialdom tells them wholeheartedly regarding 9/11 / 7/7?

Yes, there are.


Are there those that believe the government are lying scumbags concerned only for their own personal gain and how they appear to the public whist systematically shafting them?

Yes, there are.

Are there people within those diametrically opposed 'groups' that know little of the subject they profess to believe in?

Yes, of course there are.

The point to this? Is to illustrate to you and others, that one can believe a thing to be so, one way or the other, and still have their facts completely wrong. Human nature.

Does it mean that these people are wrong in their belief because they know little about it?

No, of course it doesn't.

As i say, facts are facts. Physics are physics. They are NOT dependent on viewpoint, rhetoric, oratory ability and status. They are immovable and intransigent, and separate from the BS that invariably get's swept up and along in these circumstances.

Therefore..one can be right in one's belief but wrong in one's facts.
The only reliable method to determining whether your belief system is supported by actual fact and the laws of physics, is to perform extended RESEARCH into not just the events that transpired on that day, but of the extenuating areas and circumstances connected.

Research and study begets knowledge and wisdom. Otherwise your just slapping your chops...and everyone knows it.
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