The Three Jahovah's of the Bible

reply to post by Selahobed

Ohhhh brother!! This old chestnut.... Locoman said "How can three people be one?" Well are we ALL not soul, body and spirit??? Three in one??? Funny how G-d works in threes huh?? Even in us!

Yes, and are we not made in his image. Thanks Selahobed for pointing this out.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it el locoman.


Oh and about the Hebrew thing Ill be sure to call on you if I need to. Thanks

[edit on 20-12-2009 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil

Im sorry, I dont quite understand what you are saying.You are using the Latin JHVH as opposed to the Hebrew YHWH. Why?

Good analogy though

Latin letters, latin transfiguration. Hebrew letters, Hebrew configuration. Jod is J, not Y. Y is a vowel, Hebrew has no vowels. Same with W, vav is V, not W, since W is infact a Greek Omega minuscle, adopted into the Latin letters.

[edit on 20/12/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Selahobed

 

Ohhhh brother!! This old chestnut.... Locoman said "How can three people be one?" Well are we ALL not soul, body and spirit??? Three in one??? Funny how G-d works in threes huh?? Even in us!

Yes, and are we not made in his image. Thanks Selahobed for pointing this out.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it el locoman.

Oh and about the Hebrew thing Ill be sure to call on you if I need to. Thanks

[edit on 20-12-2009 by oliveoil]

Yeah, sticking that in my pipe to smoke? Spoken as a true christian, oliveoil! I don't even have a pipe..... And just wait as I have my own bone to pick with your little red-headed friend...

Originally posted by Selahobed
Ohhhh brother!! This old chestnut.... Locoman said "How can three people be one?" Well are we ALL not soul, body and spirit??? Three in one??? Funny how G-d works in threes huh?? Even in us!

In the bible, your soul is your life, your body is your flesh, and your spirit is your mind. All still a single part of YOU!!! In the trinity doctrine, there are three individual beings with a single God attribute that is shared by them. In this case, they are called equal and all called the same single God, just in one of three forms. Soul, body and spirit are inseperable in the sense of what I explained before. Unless of course, you use the word "Spirit" as an outside being living within a fleshly body. If this is the case, you are following greek mythology as the bible does not mention a spirit separating from flesh when you die. It mentions the flesh transfiguring (or transforming) into spirit as Jesus Himself did. Why do you think the body of Christ was no longer in the tomb when He resurrected?

As for Yeshua "praying to Himself," isnt He our example? Did He not live His life AS an example for us to follow? Should not the "Leader" lead by example? Does not the leader who IS The Way show us the way?? If Yeshua is the life, then how can death have any hold on Him??

He did live as an example for us. Why don't most christians follow the Sabbath as Jesus did? Why don't most christians follow the 7 Holy Days as Jesus did? Why don't christains abstain from unclean meats as Jesus did? You'll probably say what oliveoil says which is that He was Jewish and had to follow the Jewish law perfectly. How can you follow His example if He's doing what christians are no longer obligated to do? Because He never taught us to NOT do the things He did. As far as the praying to the Father goes... it still doesn't make sense that you are both the Father and the Son at the exact same time. He also prayed alone to the Father... not as an example to us but for His own personal guidance. Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and mothered by Mary. The Father was still in heaven.... not in the womb of Mary. They are separate beings with a unified cause and purpose. Imagine a father passing on the family business to his eldest son. This is what the Father is doing with Christ. Christ is being handed the Kingdom of God to rule on earth for 1000 years. It's a relationship... a Father/Son relationship.

It is very simple; if i am body, soul and spirit, and i agree within myself, then I have no difficulty in believing in Hayah Asher hayah, who is Av, HaBen, Ruach Hakodesh; Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, as one....

1 Thessalonians 5:23: Spirit, soul and body?
Many are confused by an expression the apostle Paul uses in one of his letters to the Thessalonians: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

What does Paul mean by the phrase "spirit, soul, and body"?

By "spirit" (pneuma), Paul means the non-material component that is joined to the physical human brain to form the human mind. This spirit is not conscious of itself. Rather, it gives the brain the ability to reason, create and analyze our existence (see also Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11). By "soul" (psuche), Paul means the person's physical being with its consciousness. By "body" (soma), Paul means a physical body of flesh. In short, Paul wished for the whole person, including the mind, vitality of conscious life and physical body, to be sanctified and blameless.
www.ucg.org/booklets/ad

Btw, if you guys want to learn hebrew, i am more than happy to teach you..

I can look it up, but thanks for mentioning it. Peace and safety to you in this time of pagan traditions. Be steady, be brave, and don't let the idols of this world persuade you. God bless you.

reply to post by oliveoil


I learned from this thread.

Thank you.

It was allowed me all this time, but I didn't consciously recognize it. Interesting... it's such a simple point, too.

reply to post by Locoman8

You'll probably say what oliveoil says which is that He was Jewish and had to follow the Jewish law perfectly.

I think you need to go back and re read the gospels. Did Jesus follow all the laws of Moses? Did he not do work on the Sabbath?

Your forgetting the main theme of the Bible itself. That's the Covenants.
something you obviously overlook.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by oliveoil

 

I learned from this thread.

Thank you.

It was allowed me all this time, but I didn't consciously recognize it. Interesting... it's such a simple point, too.

Its so simple yet seemingly intelligent people cant grasp it. Thanks

reply to post by oliveoil



Hey Olive

I’m not sure why you didn’t reply to my second post on this thread…after dragging me in here, to discuss it lol (from the other thread)

Just too add to my second post…

Originally posted by oliveoil
Now, out of those 5300 early Greek manuscripts ten of these contain the Comma.
#61, #88m, #221m, #429 , #636 ,#918, #2318 , #634, and omega 110.

Apparently, none of the above, are earlier, than the fourteenth century!

Link

Which means, most of those other 491 documents (without the comma), containing 1 John, predate the above manuscripts.


***************************************************


Trinity Definition

2. Trinity Theology In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.

Trinity Definition


“Union of three divine persons” is the important key part of the "Trinity" definition.

The Father is a divine person and is one with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (Check)

Jesus is a divine person and is one with God/Father and the Holy Spirit. (Check)

The Holy Spirit is in union with God and Jesus but unfortunately, does not appear to be a unique divine person, in it’s own right, like Jesus is. The Holy Spirit is only a person, in the sense that, that person is God.

So there are three in one… but the “Trinity”, by definition is incorrect, because there are only two divine persons. Also the “Holy Spirit” is termed mostly in the bible as “The Spirit of God”, which means it’s a part of God, not a new separate divine person.

If you believe that the “Holy Spirit” is a unique divine person on it’s own, as well as being in union with God/Father and Jesus, then show me the verse in the bible, where the “Holy Spirit”, speaks for itself. Not God or Jesus talking but the “Holy Spirit” talking.


Show me the verse?



- JC


[edit on 22-12-2009 by Joecroft]

reply to post by Locoman8


I don't agree with the mind, body and soul analogy.

The Nephesh(to breathe, breather) which is translated as Soul and Psyche is "being". Anything on earth with the "breath of life" (Neshmat Hayim) from bugs to humans are nephesh hayyah. They are living beings. When the breath is taken away and returned to G-d these things are no longer Nephesh.

The Breath or Neshama is the vital force that comes from G-d and gives being to lifeforms. When a lifeform or living being dies this vital "breath" returns to G-d. This is not the mind, body or consciousness. Neshama overlaps with Ruach (Wind, Animated Air) and Biblically appears to be the same concept. Ruach is normally translated into Pneuma in Greek. Pneuma in classical Greek philosophy also refers to the "breath of life" and can also refer to a cosmic vital force.

A better analogy would be to use Nephesh to encompass mind, body and soul. It is the entire being.

Neshama could be considered a subtype of Ruach. The "breath" (Neshama) could be drawn from the "moving air" (Ruach), which would explain why there is so much overlap in the Bible. In some Greek philosophy, Pneuma and Aether have a similar relationship.

This understanding creates a whole new radical outlook on things. An outlook that has been lost in the translations and also by assimilation of ideas outside of the Bible.



[edit on 22/12/09 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by Joecroft


Actually in many discussions with fellow Christians I find that many don't believe in the church definition of the trinity. When pressed if the Holy Spirit is a separate thinking entity on par with Jesus Christ, most back down because they have no biblical proof, like you say.
Most discover that they don't actually believe in the church's trinity but rather a duality of just Jesus Christ & the Almighty God as one. As they can find scriptures that at least on the surface they can twist to fit their own belief structure.
The reality is most people don't even believe in a trinity anymore, they just believe Jesus and the almighty God are one and it's a mystery beyond human comprehension.

However if you read the bible and receive the smallest amount of Holy Spirit from God you will know the truth of this matter, it is easy to comprehend, there is neither trinity or duality. But two spirit beings that are separate, one was created and the other wasn't.

John 4: 24

24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

[edit on 22-12-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
However if you read the bible and receive the smallest amount of Holy Spirit from God you will know the truth of this matter, it is easy to comprehend, there is neither trinity or duality. But two spirit beings that are separate, one was created and the other wasn't.

Well, I’m pretty sure there is no “Trinity” by definition, so I guess it all depends on how you define duality?

Yes both Jesus and God are separate persons, but like the “Trinity” definition, they are both divine person’s, in union with each other.


John 14:9-11 (New International Version)

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

biblegateway.com


-JC

reply to post by MikeboydUS


The "soul" or "breath of Life" is the exact same thing as saying "the essence of life" or "conciousness of life" because without that breath of life, you will not be a living being. What was said to me was that humans posess Spirit, body and soul. Spirit in this sense represents your mind or thoughts. Body represents your flesh and soul represents your life. So an accurate reading would be "Mind, Body and Life. Still doesn't prove the trinity doctrine true. Bluejay explained it quite well allthough I don't agree with him on the "Jesus was a created being" part.

reply to post by Locoman8


Biblically, Nephesh which is translated as soul and psyche is being. Being that would encompass mind, body, and breath. All living beings from the smallest of insects to the largest of whales are Nephesh.

Biblically, Neshama and Ruach are both "breath". It doesn't represent your mind or your thoughts. Neshama is what allows one to exist or to be Nephesh.

Neshama (Breath) + Aphar (Dust) = Nephesh (Being)

What I am saying is Biblically the concept of a seperate mind, body and soul doesn't exist. The misconception is from bad translations and assimilation of ideas from outside the Bible. Christian missionaries to the Germanic tribes tried to adapt the term psyche into the Germanic term Soule. That and some reinterpretations due to various classical Greek philosophies paved the way for the misunderstanding.

What is translated as "soul" actually means your entire "being" made up of mind, body, and breath.

When the breath leaves and returns to G-d, the person ceases to be Nephesh. The dust returns to the earth. This breath or vital essence isn't a person or being. It is an essence of G-d.

Centuries of misunderstandings and a lack of using Hebrew have resulted in people thinking that Human egos are immortal and immaterial entities.

The ego isn't immortal. Biblically when the breath leaves the person, their ego or self "sleeps". Some verses indicate the potential for awakening it, like the encounter that Saul has with the deceased prophet Samuel. Later verses deal with the idea of physical resurrection where the Nephesh (Being) is restored, especially in regards to the Last Judgement where all of the dead are resurrected to face G-d. So even in the Day of Judgement there is no immortal and immaterial ego on trial, instead there are physical living beings or Nephesh that face G-d's judgement.

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by oliveoil

 

I learned from this thread.

Thank you.

It was allowed me all this time, but I didn't consciously recognize it. Interesting... it's such a simple point, too.

Its so simple yet seemingly intelligent people cant grasp it. Thanks

Yet again I say, the most powerful tool we have is the imagination...

and sometimes I think that the imagination is what Jesus was referring to as faith.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Hey Olive
I’m not sure why you didn’t reply to my second post on this thread…after dragging me in here, to discuss it lol (from the other thread)

Hi Joe,
Apologies. Im still stuck over their in that same thread (me vs everyone like always lol)

Originally posted by oliveoil
Now, out of those 5300 early Greek manuscripts ten of these contain the Comma.
#61, #88m, #221m, #429 , #636 ,#918, #2318 , #634, and omega 110.

Apparently, none of the above, are earlier, than the fourteenth century!

I know this. however , point being maid is that they had to come from earlier records as these are original manuscripts. Perhaps maybe ones that were destroyed.

Which means, most of those other 491 documents (without the comma), containing 1 John, predate the above manuscripts.

Yes, but what other books are these missing? why should these be considered authentic and not the ones that do contain the comma?

If you believe that the “Holy Spirit” is a unique divine person on it’s own, as well as being in union with God/Father and Jesus, then show me the verse in the bible, where the “Holy Spirit”, speaks for itself. Not God or Jesus talking but the “Holy Spirit” talking.
Show me the verse?

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.


Not only this, but they are all three seen together and separate in the baptism of Jesus.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

However if you read the bible and receive the smallest amount of Holy Spirit from God you will know the truth of this matter, it is easy to comprehend, there is neither trinity or duality. But two spirit beings that are separate, one was created and the other wasn't.

John 4: 24

24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

Oh brother, round and round we go again.Of course God is a spirit.He is also light, He is also love ect..,He is anything he wants to be.This has nothing to do with the Holy Ghost and Jesus.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

How does one twist this? The Holy Ghost spoke.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

How do you explain all three here in this verse? There is no way to twist this.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You are implying that "soul" and "spirit" are the same thing and they're not. Soul is the essence of life, or breath. SPIRIT is what is translated meaning "mind" in the sense of the earlier verse mentioning soul, body and spirit.

soul= breath
body= flesh
spirit= mind

I do agree that the three are not separate of the human makeup and that once you die your soul (breath) goes back to God, not as a separate person, but as a part of God. Your dead body will soon resurrect again and may transfigure into spirit (not mind, but bodily spirit being) if you belong to the family of God.... which is your choice of course. I think the two of us agree on this subject.

reply to post by Locoman8


Your entirely misunderstanding what I am saying.

This is how these words are mistranslated.

Nephesh to Psyche to Soule. Yet clearly in the Hebrew and in the Bible, Nephesh is the whole being.

Neshama and Ruach are translated into Pneuma and Spiritus. Yet clearly in the Hebrew and the Bible these are terms for the vital essence from G-d.

What you are saying doesn't even go along with the mistranslation or make sense.

Your saying:
Soul =Breath
Body=Flesh
Spirit=Mind

The mistranslation says:
Breath=Spirit
Nephesh (Being)= Soul

Neshama isn't translated as Soul. Nephesh is the word translated to Soul. Breath or Wind is always translated to Spirit, even Spiritus in Latin means breath.

Genesis 2:7 "The L-RD G-D formed the man from the dust (Aphar) of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(Neshmat Hayyim), and the man became a living being (Nephesh Hayyah). "

Genesis 1:24 "And G-D said, Let the earth bring forth the living creatures (Nephesh Hayyah) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."

The mind, body, and breath togther are Nephesh.

What I am saying:

Neshama= Vital essence of G-d
Nephesh= Being, encompassing mind, body, and breath

The mind or ego isn't seperate from the Nephesh. It is not immortal or immaterial. The mind isn't the breath.

The breath is G-d's.

The mind and body are dust.

Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

John 5:28-30. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Again the mind and body are dust. When the breath return's to G-d, consciousness ceases. Thoughts, memories, and awareness of self and time all cease to be.

Originally posted by Locoman8
soul= breath
body= flesh
spirit= mind

Well, spirit means literally breath in our bibles. Look up "Nashamah", Strong's Number 05397.

Definition:
1. breath, spirit
2. breath (of God)
3. breath (of man)
4. every breathing thing
5. spirit (of man)

And in biblical theory, Adam's soul was the clay vessel God created, which he turned into a living soul by breathing air or spirit into it's nostrils.

Look up Genesis 2:7
And Jahveh Elohim formed Adam of the clay of the red ground, and breathed breath of life through his nostrils, so Adam became a living soul.

[edit on 24/12/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I'm not talking in the grand scheme of the bible. I'm talking about one verse in which someone tried to prove the trinity. In that instance, the word in the NT that is translated "spirit" is the "mind".


1 Thessalonians 5:23: Spirit, soul and body?
Many are confused by an expression the apostle Paul uses in one of his letters to the Thessalonians: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

What does Paul mean by the phrase "spirit, soul, and body"?

By "spirit" (pneuma), Paul means the non-material component that is joined to the physical human brain to form the human mind. This spirit is not conscious of itself. Rather, it gives the brain the ability to reason, create and analyze our existence (see also Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11). By "soul" (psuche), Paul means the person's physical being with its consciousness. By "body" (soma), Paul means a physical body of flesh. In short, Paul wished for the whole person, including the mind, vitality of conscious life and physical body, to be sanctified and blameless.

source: www.ucg.org...


This is all greek, not hebrew in Paul's letters.