The Three Jahovah's of the Bible

Originally posted by queenannie38

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(Deuteronomy 6:4)

the word "one" is "echad," Strong's #259.

from Strong's:

H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

to further clarify, here is the definition of #H258:

H258
אחד
'âchad
aw-khad'
Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one’s thoughts): - go one way or other.

to unify - to collect (one's thoughts)

reinforcing the statement of Jesus that he and the Father are one.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
(Zechariah 14:9)

Your not telling me anything I don't already know. Of coarse Jesus and the Father are one in union. After all they are both God.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by queenannie38

 

I hope that can shut up the trinity believers who keep throwing around the "I and the Father are One" argument to prove one God in multiple bodies. Good post. Star for you.

Haven't we been down this road before? Your theory holds no water.

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by queenannie38

 

I hope that can shut up the trinity believers who keep throwing around the "I and the Father are One" argument to prove one God in multiple bodies. Good post. Star for you.

Haven't we been down this road before? Your theory holds no water.

Yet I can say the same about your theory too. How can Jesus pray to Himself as Jesus continually prayed to the Father, even in private? How can the Holy Spirit (by your understanding being part of a trinitarian God) baptise itself as Jesus was baptised in the Holy Spirit?

By that kind of reasoning, your theory holds no water. Good day to you.

Originally posted by Locoman8

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by queenannie38

 

I hope that can shut up the trinity believers who keep throwing around the "I and the Father are One" argument to prove one God in multiple bodies. Good post. Star for you.

Haven't we been down this road before? Your theory holds no water.

Yet I can say the same about your theory too. How can Jesus pray to Himself as Jesus continually prayed to the Father, even in private? How can the Holy Spirit (by your understanding being part of a trinitarian God) baptise itself as Jesus was baptised in the Holy Spirit?

By that kind of reasoning, your theory holds no water. Good day to you.

What part don't you get? These are three separate individuals each being the same in nature. That nature would be Gods.

I could give you a more elementary explanation on this however, I wouldn't want to insult your intelligence.

reply to post by oliveoil


This is the problem with the trinity. Too many people have too many views on what it is.

How can one person be three people at the same time?

Father is not Jesus
Jesus is not Spirit
Spirit is not Father
All three are God.

Sorry, but if they are all God, wouldn't they all be Father, Son, and Spirit simutaniously as well?

It makes no sense unless they are all three separate gods. It's more understandable if you consider all three being individual Gods with the same, or unified perpose. That's how I view Jesus and the Father. I just view the Holy Spirit as a "power" and not a "person."

The actual doctrine of the trinity didn't even exist officially until the 325AD council of Nicea. This was a Roman Catholic council and I dismiss Catholic theology as heresy. None of it adheres to the bible so none of it is followed by me. The protestant had one big mistake in it's movement.... it adopted some of the Catholic traditions including the "trinity doctrine", sunday worship as opposed to Sabbath worship, the later adoption of the former pagan winter solstice holidays which became known as Christmas in the christian world, and the adoption of everlasting torment in hell for sinners... a greek philosophical view of hell and not biblical.

So you see, my disbelief in the "trinity doctrine" has its root cause in the fact that it originated through the Catholic church. True the Father, Son, and Spirit are seen worded together a few times in the NT but neither imply that the three are the same God or that the Spirit itself was a God. It is the Spirit OF God, meaning it came from God. God created this spirit. Unlike Jesus who was with God from the beginning, there is no reference to the Holy Spirit being ever-existent as a person like Jesus or the Father.

To end this post I will repeat my view on christianity's worship of a word known as "monotheism" which is why the Trinity Doctrine was created in the first place. In order to be "politically correct" in their time, the church fathers of the 4th century attempted to explain how there could only be one God though there seemed to be three divine characters in the NT writings. They were explained away as three persons with one God dwelling in all three persons. The bible makes no mention of this. It mentions Jesus as God and the Father as God. God is a title, not a name. Jesus was a God and the Father was a God. In my view, God is a family... a proper use for the term "godhead" which shows a heirarchy like a family tree. The Father is the head of the family. The Christ or Son of God is the eldest Son of God. The eldest son of any family back in the day was always the inheriter of their father's things. Jesus will inherit the Kingdom of God and place that kingdom on earth. When this happens, those who were dwelling in the Holy Spirit would become sons and daughters of God. Sons and daughters of the "family of God" or "Godhead". They are married into the family as the "saints" are considered the "bride of Christ". Christ is the "bridegroom" and the resurrection of the saints represents the "marriage feast". After peace on earth for 1000 years the rest of the dead will rise to the White Throne Judgement. This judgement is not an automatic sentence. It is a trial. It is the time when a person tells Christ that their sorry and repents, or gives a big fat middle finger and denies Christ. Those who deny Christ and the Father will be incenerated in a lake of fire, never to live again. Those who accept and repent will be "adopted" into the "family of God" or "Godhead". The "Family of God" or "Godhead" should be sufficient enough to satisfy those who long for "monotheism" in christianity.

Either way, there are 2 God members in existence right now. The Father of God and the Son of God (God being the family, not a person). Digging through all the scriptures of the bible, it's hard to deny the logic of this explanation. The case is further made when you associate God with the term "Elohim", the uniplural form of "God" in the OT. It's more than one person. "Let US make man in OUR image..." Genesis 1:26.

reply to post by Locoman8

How can one person be three people at the same time?

One person is not three people at the same time.Three people are of the same nature. That being o the nature of the one true God

Sorry, but if they are God,wouldnt they all be father,Son,and Spirit simutaniously as well?

.
No. They are all of the same nature however, they are all individuals.

It's more understandable if you consider all three being individual Gods with the same, or unified perpose. That's how I view Jesus and the Father.

exactly. However, there is only one God.These three individuals just happen to share all the same characteristics of him.

The actual doctrine of the trinity didn't even exist officially until the 325AD council of Nicea. This was a Roman Catholic council and I dismiss Catholic theology as heresy. None of it adheres to the bible so none of it is followed by me.

It doesn't matter what year this notion was conceived and or by who.The only thing that matters is if it is true.

This doctrine in its bare form outlines four basic truths concerning The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit

1) In the one divine nature, there are three persons. The Father , The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
2) No one of the persons is either of the others, each is wholly himself.
3)The Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
4) there are not three Gods but one God.

there is no reference to the Holy Spirit being ever-existent as a person like Jesus or the Father.

The Holy Ghost speaks-

Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

He teaches-

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

He can transform into a bodily shape-

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

reply to post by oliveoil


Just to clarify, the word "Ghost" shouldn't be used since it's not a person who died and magically separated from the body to become a ghost. NKJV translates it best with the word "Spirit" as God's power is spiritual in nature.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Just to clarify, the word "Ghost" shouldn't be used since it's not a person who died and magically separated from the body to become a ghost. NKJV translates it best with the word "Spirit" as God's power is spiritual in nature.

LOL
That's all you have to say? The reality is that the term Holy Ghost is used (in the NT only) more than 80 times. The word Holy Spirit is only used 7 times, and only in the OT. These would be the same. duh!

reply to post by oliveoil


In the KJV it does. My NKJV says "Spirit" in every aspect of God's power force. It's not to get off the subject, I just don't care for the term "Holy Ghost" when "Holy Spirit" gives off a much better "christain" or "honorable" appearance for something that came from God. End of this discussion for me. End of this thread for me since you felt the need to play off my thread to create yours. Thread kill...... NOW!!!

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by oliveoil

 

In the KJV it does. My NKJV says "Spirit" in every aspect of God's power force. It's not to get off the subject, I just don't care for the term "Holy Ghost" when "Holy Spirit" gives off a much better "christain" or "honorable" appearance for something that came from God. End of this discussion for me. End of this thread for me since you felt the need to play off my thread to create yours. Thread kill...... NOW!!!

Considering that you can not refute or dispute these truths, I guess this thread is over for you.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.

BTW,
Since you use the NKJV please explain this

1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Why would they put this in your Bible if it wasn't true?

[edit on 18-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil


I've refuted plenty of times but you tend to play it off like it's nothing. The verse in 1 JOHN also has a linear note in the reference:

NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

Which tells me that these words were added by the Roman Catholic Church so their "trinity" theory would hold water.

TRINITY REFUTED...... Once again......Thread killed.

reply to post by oliveoil


Look. JHVH is not the entire name of God. In Kabbalah it is a name with 72 letters. It is also refered to as the Mark of God, Name of God, Word of God etc. Even God himself, since it is his Name. Well, assigning 72 letters to three separate "Jehovah's" you have a complete name of 216 letters.

216 x 666.667 = 144,000

This smells rats.... Are you trying to brand the children of God with the mark of the Beast?

[edit on 19/12/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by oliveoil

 

Look. JHVH is not the entire name of God. In Kabbalah it is a name with 72 letters. It is also refered to as the Mark of God, Name of God, Word of God etc. Even God himself, since it is his Name. Well, assigning 72 letters to three separate "Jehovah's" you have a complete name of 216 letters.

216 x 666.667 = 144,000

This smells rats.... Are you trying to brand the children of God with the mark of the Beast?

[edit on 19/12/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Im sorry, I dont quite understand what you are saying.You are using the Latin JHVH as opposed to the Hebrew YHWH. Why?

Good analogy though

[edit on 19-12-2009 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by oliveoil

 

I've refuted plenty of times but you tend to play it off like it's nothing. The verse in 1 JOHN also has a linear note in the reference:

NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

Which tells me that these words were added by the Roman Catholic Church so their "trinity" theory would hold water.

TRINITY REFUTED...... Once again......Thread killed.

Ok so where did the Roman Catholic Church add them from?
You can feel free to quote what I have already posted.


[edit on 19-12-2009 by oliveoil]

Originally posted by oliveoil
What part don't you get? These are three separate individuals each being the same in nature. That nature would be Gods.

I could give you a more elementary explanation on this however, I wouldn't want to insult your intelligence.

In reality the one Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is always, from Genesis to Revelation, revealed as one person, and never, no not once, is Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, revealed as being more than one person. Especially, all through the New Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is revealed as one person as distinguished from His Son. (Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2). The very expression "Son fo God" uses the term "God" as speaking of one person, the unipersonal God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) One has to go beyond what was written so as to use the great spirit of human imagination in order to make it appear that any scripture speaks of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as more than one person, and this is done by using that imagination to formulate assumptions which assumptions then have to added to, and read into each and every scripture to make any scripture at all appear to support the added-on imaginations. In adding all of the trinitarian assumptions, however, the true basis for redemption in the blood of Christ as revealed in the Bible thereby contradicted, and replaced with salvation in Trinity idol, especially in the trinitarian dogma that Jesus is still a human being of flesh, which would nullify what was revealed earlier, that Christ came in the flesh to give that flesh, with its blood -- its soul, as a sacrifice for sin to save the world condemned in Adam. (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24; John 6:51; Hebrews 10:10) If Jesus still inhabits that body, then it would mean that he never offered that body to his God for sin after his ascension into heaven, and thus scriptural basis for atonement is contradicted by the alleged later revealments concerning the trinity. (Hebrews 8:4; 9:24-28; 10:10) The default scriptural assumption is that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is solely one person, for that is the way that He is presented from Genesis to Revelation. I have discussed this in greater length at:
godandson.reslight.net...

Christian love,
Ronald

Originally posted by oliveoil
exactly. However, there is only one God.These three individuals just happen to share all the same characteristics of him.

Not once in the Bible is the son of the Most High depicted as possessing the characteristic of being the only Most High. In Luke 1:32, the expression "Highest", or "Most High" is used unipersonally of the God and Father of Jesus. The unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1), by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh as his unipersonal God and Father, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13-26; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is son of the unipersonal Most High, Yahweh. Jesus is never spoken of as the “Most High”; he is not the only Most High Yahweh of whom he is the son. — Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16.

Jesus, in becoming flesh, became a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less, as the equivalent of Adam before Adam sinned in order to reverse effects of what Adam had done. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) In doing this, Jesus, being but a sinless man, nothing more, nothing less, by his obedience, never once falling short of the glory of his God, and by his overcoming all temptation to sin, thereby condemned sin the flesh, and through this means his God and Father could be found just, and yet at the same time the justifier of the sinner. (Romans 3:23,26; 8:3; John 16:33; Hebrews 2:9; 4:15; Revelation 3:21) On the other hand, the added-on philosophies that would exalt Jesus to the glory that only belongs only to the Most High, would, in effect mean -- in contradiction to that which was revealed through Paul -- that Jesus justified sin in the flesh, for it would prove that for Adam to have obeyed the Most High, Adam would have needed to have been the Most High.

In truth, from Genesis to Revelation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is presented as a unipersonal God. In all of the scriptures claimed to present otherwise, the great spirit of human imagination has be consulted, and the resulting imaginations and assumptions have to added to, and read into, each and every scripture to get added-on dogma appear to be supported by the scripture.

Part of the above, I have adapted from what I have written earlier at:
godandson.reslight.net...


Christian love,
Ronald

Originally posted by oliveoil

The Holy Ghost speaks-

Acts 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

He teaches-

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

He can transform into a bodily shape-

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

In Genesis 1:2, in the phrase "spirit of God", "God" speaks of one person, and it speaks of the "spirit" as belonging to that one-personed "God". All through the Bible, "God" is thus presented as one person in relationship to His spirit. The spirit of God is never once presented as a person of "God". That idea has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into all of the scriptures presented. However, God's holy spirit is revealed in the scriptures as linked personally with the one-personed "God." God's holy spirit is likened to God's finger (as the power of God). (Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20) As the revealment of truth, the holy spirit may be likened to God's "mouth". (1 Kings 8:24; 2 Chronicles 6:4; 36:12,21; Ezra 1:1; Isaiah 1:20; 40:5; 45:23; 48:3; 58:14; 62:2; Jeremiah 9:12,20; Ezekiel 33:7; Micah 4:4; Matthew 4:4; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:17; 28:25; Hebrews 3:7; 9:8; 10:15,16; 2 Peter 1:21) Thus, as God's mouth speaks and teaches, so God's holy spirit speaks and teaches. God's holy spirit is not a second person of God anymore than God's "mouth" is a separate person of God. Of course, God can reveal his holy spirit in the bodily form of a dove, but this does not mean that the holy spirit of God is a person of God to whom the holy spirit belongs. Again, such an idea has to be imagined beyond what is written, assumed, added to, and read into what the scriptures actually state.

Christian love,
Ronald

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by Locoman8
That's all you have to say? The reality is that the term Holy Ghost is used (in the NT only) more than 80 times. The word Holy Spirit is only used 7 times, and only in the OT. These would be the same. duh!

The reality is that the Greek word often transliterated as "pnuema" corresponds with the Hebrew word often transliterated as "ruwach," and the phrase "holy spirit" is based on the Hebrew phrase "Qodesh Ruwach," as rendered by the KJV as "holy spirit" in Psalm 51:11; Isaiah 63:10,11. In Greek heathen myhology, the word "pneuma" is used to relate the idea of a ghost of dead person, based on the heathen idea that the pnuema of a person is something that cannot die. In the Bible, pneuma usually refers to the ruwach as depicted in the Old Testament, although in a few instances it used with fear possibly related to the possibility that the Grecian mythologies could be true (where pneuma is used as a synonym for the Greek phantasm), or possibly related to fear that the demon "evil/unclean spirits" had overcome the ones involved.

Originally posted by oliveoil
1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by oliveoil]

While I tend to believe that the wording as it appears in the KJV and some other translations is an interpolation, still, even with that wording, one has to use his imagination, formulate that imagination into assumptions, add those assumptions to, and read those assumptions into, the verse as it appears in the KJV and some other translations.

One has to imagine and assume that "the Father" refers to the allgeged person of the alleged triune God, and then, one has to further imagine and assume that "the Word" refers to the alleged second person of the alleged triune God, and then one has to imagine and assume that the "Holy Spirit" refers to the alleged third person of the alleged triune God, and then one has to imagine and assume that "one" means the one allgeged "triune God."

"One," however does not refer to one God, however; nor does it refer to one substance. The idea of “one God” is not expressed since “one God” would in the Greek be “heis theos” (transliterated) not “hen [theos]“; thus since the traditional text has “hen” (neuter), not “heis” (masculine), the “one” being spoken of cannot mean “one God”. Nor does the Greek express “one Being/Substance”, as in the trinitarian phrase, “treis hypostaseis en mia ousia” (three persons in one being/substance). As can be seen, if the one in 1 John 5:7,8 was meant to express one in being/substance, then “one” would not have been expresed by the neuter Greek “hen”, but by the feminine Greek “mia”.

Christian love,
Ronald

Ohhhh brother!! This old chestnut.... Locoman said "How can three people be one?" Well are we ALL not soul, body and spirit??? Three in one??? Funny how G-d works in threes huh?? Even in us!

As for Yeshua "praying to Himself," isnt He our example? Did He not live His life AS an example for us to follow? Should not the "Leader" lead by example? Does not the leader who IS The Way show us the way?? If Yeshua is the life, then how can death have any hold on Him??

It is very simple; if i am body, soul and spirit, and i agree within myself, then I have no difficulty in believing in Hayah Asher hayah, who is Av, HaBen, Ruach Hakodesh; Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, as one....

Btw, if you guys want to learn hebrew, i am more than happy to teach you..