Non-Believers...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by badmedia

 

Wow, you can't quit.. It's not "quitting", we have reached a point where we are just repeating our same positions. If we don't both say, "we disagree and it won't change!" Then the "correspondence" between us will keep going, and going, and going, and going, without ceasing. And we'll both be arguing AD NAUSEUM without ceasing.

So therefore,.. thank you for the spirited correspondence!

False, you ended it when the contradictions of Paul and Jesus were brought up in a list, nicely laid out. Rather than addressing those contradictions, you started with the agree to disagree stuff.

Seems to me like you just want to make claims without being questioned. And once we got to the root of the problems - the basis of understandings, you are cutting tail and running as all you have is church dogma, and no real backing in the bible or the words of Jesus.

So maybe if what you were saying there were actually true you'd have a point.

And no, I do not quit. Why should I when I have no trouble backing up what I say?

I don't go around looking for people who agree with me, I look for those who disagree with me. I'm open minded and not opposed to changing my mind - but you had better give me understanding and not dogma.

Proverbs 9

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Knowledge of the holy is understanding, not church dogma.

[edit on 10/30/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


Okay, I'll bite. But I'm only answering you with scripture.

Which I find hilarious that you yourself use as justification for your position.

You claim the Bible is just a book written by men, then quote from it when it suits you only.

.. you put your faith into a book written by men.

Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

2nd Thessalonians 1:8, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1st Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

1st Peter 1:18-19, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ..."

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Mark 1:15, "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Acts 26:18, "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1st Corinthians 3:11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Galatians 3:26, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."









[edit on 30-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I quote the bible mostly for your benefit. What Jesus says is true, what Paul says is usually either praise or untrue. There is a difference, and that is why I pointed out the contradictions.

None of your quotes are even related to the points I made, or even the 1 little thing you quoted about the bible. Not to mention, you are putting each and every one of them out of context when you do that.

Let me know if you muster up a real reply.

:shk:



[edit on 10/30/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

""The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." - Psalm 12:6,7



Matthew 3:2,6

"3 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins."

[edit on 30-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

You guys have to stop this. Quoting the bible as forms of argument is pure ideological banter. It accomplishes nothing.

Originally posted by Neo__
You guys have to stop this. Quoting the bible as forms of argument is pure ideological banter. It accomplishes nothing.

I realize this, we've been arguing "I'm right ur wrong and the bible says so" for 2 pages now....

But he is dead set against agreeing to disagree. You're correct, I was trying to show him how foolish an argument gets when both sides argue ad nauseum.

Like trying to ride a tricycle up a frozen slide.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by badmedia

 

""The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." - Psalm 12:6,7

Doesn't say the bible is the word of god, or that all the words in the bible is the word of god. It just says that about the actual word of god.

The bible isn't the word of god, at best you can say it is divinely inspired. The word those who wrote the bible heard - that would be the true word of god. As knowledge of the holy is understanding, it can only be expressed by men. That is what it means when it is said that the father does not give as this world does. The father gives in terms of understanding.

Proof of this can be found in Proverbs 8. Where it says directly that people can find the father early, and he will reward those who find him early with wisdom and understanding.

Calling the bible the word of god is to replace the real thing for it. Men can't write the true word of god, and it's not a spoken language - it's pure understanding.

Matthew 3:2,6

"3 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins."

As I said before, repenting for your sins means to fix your mistakes. You seem to think it means "accept Jesus".

But again, none of these quotes have anything to do with the contridictions I mentioned.

Originally posted by Neo__
You guys have to stop this. Quoting the bible as forms of argument is pure ideological banter. It accomplishes nothing.

Is ok, confrontation brings about understanding. He is currently just trying to avoid the points made, that is what accomplishes nothing.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I realize this, we've been arguing "I'm right ur wrong and the bible says so" for 2 pages now....

But he is dead set against agreeing to disagree. You're correct, I was trying to show him how foolish an argument gets when both sides argue ad nauseum.

Like trying to ride a tricycle up a frozen slide.

If the argument was going ad nauseum as you say, then why would you need to change how you post to show it?

All you are doing is ignoring the points made, and basically putting your fingers in your ears and going "La la la la la" like a 5 year old.

reply to post by badmedia

All you are doing is ignoring the points made, and basically putting your fingers in your ears and going "La la la la la" like a 5 year old.

Oh the irony....

reply to post by badmedia


"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it REPENTED the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Genesis 6:5-6

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So are you trying to say that repent doesn't mean to fix and such?

Repent

1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

The regret and remorse part is for the things you can't fix, in which case all you can do is regret doing it, and then no longer make the same mistake again(changing your way).

You know there are 3 forms of atonement in the OT right?

reply to post by badmedia


Repent means to change one's mind. That is repentance. To agree with God that something is not right. If one repents that his sin is wrong, it will lead him to not do it intentionally. He'll feel remorse that he did it.

Repentance is a change of the mind, it leads one's actions over time to change, but it's born in the mind. Repentance is agreeing with the conviction of the Holy Spirit within the hearts and soul of every believer. And it's something that we need to do daily.

Repentance simply means to agree with God when He reveals our true nature... a sinner. i totally understand what "repentance" means in Webster's dictionary today, but what was it defined as in Webster's original dictionary?

If we passed each other on the street 50 years ago and you said "Hello sir, how are you doing today?" I may very well have said, "I'm quite gay this fine day sir, thank you for asking, how are you?" Does that mean I was a homosexual that day? No, "gay" has a totally different meaning today.

In hebrew the word for "repent is": nacham which means according to Strong's Concordance:

1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted

a) (Niphal)

1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion

2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent

3) to comfort oneself, be comforted

4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself

In the NT the Greek word "metanoeō" is used where the English word "repentance" is, and according to Strong's Concordance it means:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

We all make mistakes after salvation, i have to ask for forgiveness daily when I slip up, but a slip up is not a willful act of committing a sin repeatedly, that's a serious thing. But even with a born again spirit we still have a sinful flesh that won't go away until we have a resurrected body. That's why Paul kept saying his spirit was in constant battle with his flesh.

Salvation is a free gift, sanctification, or conforming oneself to the image of our Lord takes quite a long time, repenting of error every time we are convicted of it by the Holy Spirit. Over time we see a great change in our lives, but initially there won';t seem like much a change at all. But the Holy Spirit is still working within all converts to change them.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well that I didn't disagree with, and the definition didn't change among what you listed for repent and what I listed.

However, how do you go from that to a blood sacrifice for your sins and hell for those who don't accept Jesus? Repenting in such ways, I agree with and is IMO the entire point. Of which, Jesus gives an example on how to do such.

Because anyone can repent for their sins and so forth, regardless of if they are Christian or not. Regardless of if they have even heard the word Jesus, or whatever. But as in the example before, you say they will go to hell.

reply to post by badmedia


Because "true" repentance starts with faith, but it leads to change, if I'm truly sorry (repenting) for something I'll make it my goal and purpose to not do it anymore ya know? I don't know if you have kids or not, but if you do sometimes they say "sorry dad", and then they go right back to doing the exact same thing when you turn your back.

When in all reality, they were "sorry", not sorry they went against your will but more "sorry that you caught me"! They weren't sorry enough to see it from your position and realize it was wrong to do, it wasn't "repentance" to begin with, just sorrow that you caught them. See what I mean, real repentance involves a person willing to not go there again, to not transgress God's will again.

"Faith" is a word that has a few meanings in English as well. An "intellectual" faith in the stock market is that it exists, it's in New York, I can purchase stocks there et cetra. "Saving faith" is the equivalent of putting my trust and life into the Lord's hands, that's a saving faith in Him, not just believing He lived and died for my sins, but committing all I have to doing His will. That's the greatest form of worship and love on can do for God. If a person continues to do what they want whenever they want to do it then that person isn't worshiping God, they are worshiping themselves! If I had "saving faith" in the stock market, I'd have the faith necessary to put my own hard-earned money into it, not just believe with all my heart that it exists.

Salvation and repentance is the same way, would I truly have repented if I once admitted to God that He was right and that my life was full of sin if I went back to doing it willfully?? No, that would mean I either never changed my mind to begin with and was just saying "sorry you caught me", or that I had changed my mind back that those actions were okay to do again.

Do you see the difference?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I agree with you except that you seem to replace understanding with faith.

What you call faith is blind faith, and blind acceptance without question. That is not true at all.

It is by understanding that one keeps the commandments.

Psalm 111: 10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

See, no mention of faith.

Proverbs 8

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

It's plain as day for those that understand.

And understanding is how the father rewards those who truly love him and find him early.

Proverbs 8

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

Here', Proverbs 9 is the OT's last supper.

Proverbs 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

It's not that hard to understand either. Any man can have faith that 1+1=2 is true. But only the man who understands the math behind it is able to use that and apply it to themselves. While the man may have all the faith in the world that 1+1=2, it is useless to him without the understanding. Only by understanding can it be applied to their lives.

Can the man who has all the faith in the world that 1+1=2 use that statement in their lives? No. Same thing with the commandments. If one doesn't understand, then they too will not be able to apply them to themselves.

It is the difference between listening to Jesus and hearing Jesus. Let those with ears hear he says. Do you think people were walking around with no ears? No, it's talking about those who can understand.

Faith in the manner you are speaking promotes ignorance - which is what enables so many to be decieved. That is the blind leading the blind. Only those with understanding and wisdom will not be decieved.

reply to post by badmedia


The OT is the Old Covenant between man and God, the Law given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. There is a prophecy from God in the OT book of Jeremiah that says a day will come when the Old Covenant will pass away, that He will forgive man their sins, that He won't remember them anymore. That this day is coming, when man is no longer justified before His eyes by following the Mosaic Law.

Jeremiah 31:31-37

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (The Mosaic Law); which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (The Holy Spirit which Jesus says He freely gives to man when they come to Him for forgiveness)

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."

Jesus Christ said that until the Law be completely fulfilled it will never pass away, (cease to exist) not one single jot, not one single tittle."

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:18

Christ fulfilled the Law in it's entirety, every last jot and tittle of it, he was blameless, the spotless Lamb of God. Who John the Baptist said would take away the sins of the world.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29

And with Christ's dying breath He exclaimed:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

Now, a man is justified to God by His covenant of GRACE, mercy, a free gift to any man who asks, any man who acknowledges with his heart that Jesus is the Son of God, and likewise speaks it with his mouth in repentance, God promised he will "remember their sins no more".

Hebrews 8:12-13 is the verification of the prophecy from Jeremiah being in full effect, the Old Testament (covenant) has passed away as God said would happen, and a New Testament (covenant) in now in effect. A covenant based on grace, not works. Not self-justification, nor self-righteousness, but mercy and grace.

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:12-13

Man was always justified by grace through faith, it says Abraham wasn't justified by works, it was by faith, he trusted God. Adam everyone before Moses was justified by faith, it was never works. God used the Old Covenant as evidence of a man's faith, but their sins were only washed away by the yearly blood sacrifice at the temple's alter for the sins of their family.

Christ is that blameless Lamb of God... His own Son. Something He had Abraham ready to do to test his faith, it was a picture of what God the father would do... offer His Son for the sacrificial lamb of all men.

Romans 5 contrasts Adam and Christ, where with Adam sin entered the world and was passed to all men, and through Christ payment for sin was offered to all men.

man no longer has to go to the Holy of Holies to talk to God, He can do it at anytime, anyplace. that was the significance of the veil covering the Holy of Holies ripping in two right down the middle. God can be accessed at anytime, anyplace by just talking to Him, His invitation is to have a Personal relationship with Him.

It's that simple... mankind has a new covenant with God, and that was made possible by the death on the cross of His only begotten Son. Jesus Christ followed every letter of the Law, was blameless, spotless, sinless, and He fulfilled the Law and then nailed it to the cross.

When Jesus was here He gave 2 commandments for the New Covenant: 1. love god with all your heart, soul, and might. and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. That with those two commandments one automatically fulfills all the Old Covenants 619 commandments, they all fit into both.

“[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” Matt. 22:36

Jesus said: "My yoke is easy.. my burden is light."

Just repent, (change our mind and agree with God that we have sinned against Him), accept His son's death as the Lamb of God, and then live for Him, put God on the throne in our hearts... live for His will, not our own. Pick up our cross daily and nail our sinful self to it. Sure we'll make mistakes along the way, but in due time, he will transform your life, and when you die you're guaranteed eternal life because of the new Covenant.

[edit on 31-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

Problem 1 - you do not know the father. In the new convent it talks about it, it says they will know the father. But instead, you replace the father with the bible and scripture.

Problem 2 - Jesus doesn't change the laws. Instead, he gives proper understanding on how to follow them, and is an example on how to do so. Just because you can show there is a "new convent" doesn't mean that you are by default speaking of the "new convent".

It is a new convent because it rely's more on understanding than it does written laws. As you show with Jesus telling people how to understand how the law of the prophets works, and the foundation of the commandments and the law of the prophets.

You quote Jeremiah, but Jeremiah is all about the fact that the people had turned to worshipping idols. Well, you do the same thing with "Jesus". He is turned into an idol by men and the church. His images on the cross and so forth.

While Jeremiah talks of a new convent, it doesn't really define it. Jesus does define it, but then when we get into what it means to "believe and accept Jesus", what it means to have the holy spirit, what it means to be born again, and so forth - all I see in you are replacements for them and idols - which is exactly the reason Jeremiah talked of a new convent in the first place. Am I too believe that new convent is an embrace of all that was wrong of the time, rather than a way of correction for men? I can't, and Jesus certainly doesn't say that.

These replacements are not new. It's what Jesus spoke about when it was the Pharisees sitting in the seat of moses. That is what the purpose of idols are in the first place - they become replacements for what is really being talked about.

One of the very first things the father showed me was about idols and image, and how they aren't to be trusted/followed. They amount to nothing more than tools of the father, used to give a message to men - Jesus included. Because it is the father in Jesus that actually does those things, and "Jesus" is just a medium in which it is done. Which is not to take away from Jesus - quite the opposite. It is the father within Jesus that I recognize.

And I learned without the bible, so when the bible says these things about idols, I know it's telling the truth. But why do you not see that you yourself also cater to idols and commit the same offense? How is that not clear to you?

Which is the big reason I do not consider Paul as valid. He is the one who in most cases creates the replacements Christians today follow. Takes the focus from the life of Jesus, and puts all the emphasis on the death of Jesus. Which is to say one must sacrifice the truth in order for you to live, but in reality only the lie lives. Would you like proof? Turn on the news. Every day the people worship the death of Jesus, and every day people focus on his death, rather than following his life is another day for the lie to live.

It is much deeper than the idols and such you present. It is 100% understanding, and because you focus on idols you lack that understanding, and you will continue to lack that understanding. You cover that up with faith, but it is only yourself that you hurt.

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about:

John 14

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now, you see this as meaning by "Jesus" does one come unto the father. But you are looking at the idol "Jesus" when you do that. If you look beyond the idol of "Jesus", you will see the understanding.

The understanding is - only by one seeking and following the way, the truth and the life, can they come by the father. And this is true. This is true in the OT convent and it's true today. Jesus represents those things in the flesh because that is what he follows, that is what gives, and that is what he lives.

Because what makes a man? A name, or what they do and such? Jesus isn't Jesus because of his name, he is Jesus because of his actions.

Proof can be found in the same chapter, John 14.

John 14
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Now, does that mean if you ask Jesus to kill your brother - he will do it? No, of course not. Why not? Because that is not what he means when he says "in his name". What he means there is if you ask in the 3 things mentioned before - then it will happen. Meaning, if you ask for things in the name of the way, the truth and the life - then it will be done. Asking him to kill your brother - not in line with those things. But those 3 things are really understanding, and if you ask for the understanding in those things, then it will be done. Understanding is not, and will not be denied to anyone who seeks it.

further in John 14

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

See that? This is for the "Non-Believers" you say are going to hell. How do they hear the father if the above is true in the idol sense Christians present? Because even without knowing Jesus, without the Bible, anyone who seeks this understanding can obtain it. Not denied to anyone.

And yet, while you say the word Jesus, while you quote the verses, you also do not get to the real thing either, because that idol stands there as a replacement for it. But even then it's not doom and gloom - it just means you are poor in spirit, and you are blessed - just as the rest of the "non-believers".

Btw, the above verses I know to be true because that is what I experienced. I was honestly in shock the first time I read those verses, could not believe it was written.

The new convent is the example of the commandments, rather than the commandments being written themselves. This example gives people the understanding required to keep the commandments.

Again, John 14

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

When you say things, you would be true in many cases. But the problem is you do not see past the idol, and so when you say them it's not really the same thing.


When you repent, you do not accept an idol. You accept and believe what the idol did and said is true and such. The idol is just used to express those things.

To worship the idol as you say in "accepting Jesus", is about like giving a cat a bowl of milk. And rather than the cat drinking the milk the bowl was gracious enough to provide, the cat sits around, worships the bowl for bringing the milk, but then drinks water instead of the milk.

Again, John 14:

John 14

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

See, believe that the father is in him, or if for no other reason believe for the very works sake. Believe for what he did, and those who believe are those who will do what he does - keep the commandments and walk the path.



[edit on 11/1/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


"I and the father ARE ONE"

"before Abraham was, I AM"

"if you have seen me you have seen the Father"

Jesus Christ said those words.

Jesus Christ is God

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"I and the father ARE ONE"

jesus also said that his servants would be one just as he and his father are one.

one = unity

"before Abraham was, I AM"

"i have been". koine greek renders the present perfect tense as present simple.

it wasnt a quote, he was simply stating he existed before abraham.

"if you have seen me you have seen the Father"

he is the "image of the father".

my avatar is not me, it is an image of me.

Jesus Christ said those words.

yes, and you interpret those words the way you like