Non-Believers...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by badmedia

 

Wait a second, I NEVER once for a minute said nor implied that because we are saved by grace that we have a license to sin, absolutely not.

Read the first 8 chapters of Romans and that idea is shot down in flames. The path to salvation is simple as could be.

What Christ meant was that if we didn't surpass the Pharisees in righteousness we would have no life. The pharisees all had SELF-righteousness.

Extremely big difference. The Lord said they were a brood of vipers and hypocrites.

The point of that question was not directed towards the man you said would be saved. It was directed towards the fact that you said the other man would not be.

Also, I was not saying the Pharisees were righteous etc. The point is that he used a form of measurement on the subject, which is on the contrary to what you claim.

I invite you to experience common sense.
It's a wonderful thing once you get used to it...really.

reply to post by badmedia


His "form of measurement' was ZERO, Jesus was saying the Pharisees had ZERO righteousness, all their "righteousness" was self-righteousness, it was for epole to look at them, for people to think they were Holy.

Jesus condemned them when He said that because they had no righteousness whatsoever... they were "hypocrites" and were the "blind leading the blind" into the exact same snare.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Unless one is MORE righteous is what it says. More means 1 is "greater than" the other.

Not really sure what is debatable about it.

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Unless one is MORE righteous is what it says. More means 1 is "greater than" the other.

Not really sure what is debatable about it.

Nothing is debatable with what you said I agree with Christ, one must have more righteousness than the Pharisees.

It won't be hard for anyone to achieve..

The Pharisees had no righteousness, they were utterly "self-righteous". Which the Lord hates, and calls "hypocritical".

No debate, we agree.

That isn't what he is saying at all. The pharisees were in general considered by the population to very righteous people, so he was not saying what you are trying to say.

He is saying what he says numerous other times - keep the commandments.

If it was the way you are trying to push it off, and such an easy thing to do - then it wouldn't have been mentioned at all. I guess you are saying that Jesus is just saying things for the hell of it?

Plus, you've now completely changed what you said before.

Originally posted by badmedia
That isn't what he is saying at all. The pharisees were in general considered by the population to very righteous people, so he was not saying what you are trying to say.

He is saying what he says numerous other times - keep the commandments.

If it was the way you are trying to push it off, and such an easy thing to do - then it wouldn't have been mentioned at all. I guess you are saying that Jesus is just saying things for the hell of it?

Plus, you've now completely changed what you said before.

No, I have been saying the same thing, however I noticed in the above post that I misspelled "people", not intentionally. My post:

His "form of measurement' was ZERO, Jesus was saying the Pharisees had ZERO righteousness, all their "righteousness" was self-righteousness, it was for (PEOPLE) to look at them, for people to think they were Holy.

Jesus said don't be like the Pharisees, who call everyone to watch them give to the poor. That they have their just reward. (The admiration of the people for their "holyness" and "righteousness"). That when we give do so in secret, not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing, in that the Father in heaven will see and our reward will be "great".

Any "work" done selfishly isn't a "work" to God, anything done to show others how righteous one is instead of doing it for God is not righteousness at all, it's SELF-righteousness which god hates, it's SELF WORSHIP.

Jesus also said don't be like the Pharisees, and make long prayers out in public for the people to admire, same thing: they have their reward already (form the people's admiration), but to pray in private, pray to god in secret.

Jesus said when you fast, not to walk around with a sad look on your face, letting everyone see how miserable you were.. like the pharisees did, again Jesus said they received their rewards already. (admiration from the people) But to be happy when you fasted, to wash your face, it's not the ACT but what the person does with the act that determines if it was done righteously or SELF-righteously.

We both agree a person had better well have more righteousness than the Pharisees did. If they don't they would have NO righteousness whatsoever. Jesus said the Pharisees were a "brood of vipers", the "blind leading the blind", "liars", "hypocrites".. et cetra.

I also said NO CHRISTIAN has a license to continue in sin, that's ludicrous. The NT is full of verses that tell us to obey God's commandments. I never said a person shouldn't.

I know all about the Pharisees. The point is when he said that verse, he was saying it in the manner of the way the people perceived the Pharisees, not in terms of how they really acted.

Again, proof can be found in the rich man who approaches Jesus. And Jesus says it's easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle, than a rich man into heaven. That rich man believed Jesus was who he said he was, and still it was not enough.

If it was meant in the way you are saying it, then there would be no need for saying it.

Btw, Paul says you are too do things that are to be seen as good in the eyes of men, it's one of the contradictions.

reply to post by badmedia


Yes, the rich man had "faith", but it was an intellectual faith, not a saving faith. Simply put, a man will change their life if their faith is a saving faith, they will follow the Lord. Jesus showed that the man's true faith was in his money, not in God to provide all things. The rich man didn't trust God to provide food for him, the rich man's faith in his heart was in his money.


Also Jesus was telling the man what needed to be done in order to be His "disciple". there are 3 classifications of a born again Christian:

1. The Convert (Ex: Timothy) "babes in Christ"
2. The Disciple (Ex: Barnibas) "those who are being sanctified by following the conviction of the Holy Spirit
3. The Leader (Ex: Paul) Those who are "holy" and blameless before their fellow men

And Jesus had ALREADY explained to the people BEFORE he said that that the Pharisees had no righteousness other than self-righteousness, so when He stated that one must have more righteousness than they did the people already had heard the Lord explain all the Pharisees righteousness was vain, useless, self-righteousness.

And we agree, no convert to Christianity, no born again believer in the Lord has a license to sin. NO one does. So where is the debate?

A simple convert is saved, but unless one sanctifies themselves by obeying the conviction of the Holy Spirit inside them they will never move to being a disciple or a leader. they themselves will be saved, but barely, and will have no rewards from the Lord in heaven.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

""If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Believers appear before the "judgment seat of Christ" immediately after they die, and their works are judged by the Lord and rewards are given or lost, but no believer is lost to Hell.

Unbelievers appear before "The Great White Throne Judgment" (Revelation 20:11-15), at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on Earth, and they are judged according to their works, good or bad, and none of them are saved, but there are different degrees of torment for eternity... (Capernaum will have a worse torment than Soddom and Gomorrah)

All born again converts should work diligently to obey the sanctifying conviction of the Holy Spirit.


[edit on 29-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


not only is this thread bad taste, but its isnt even bible supported.

i definitely dont, nor will ever worship your god NOTurTypical. whether im threatened with eternal torment or not.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


First off, the quote regarding the Pharisees is from Matthew 5. It is not only early in Matthews story, but it is also the sermon on the mount. Which is where he is addressing a large amount of people. Matthew 5 starts out talking about it:

Matthew 5

1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Multitude means a large amount of people. Meaning, no they haven't all heard those things before, and that he was speaking to them in terms of their general perception of the Pharisees - who were regarded as being the most noble and righteous people in the land.

It's pretty obvious what he meant. There are tons of times where he says you must keep the commandments, calls people fools if they don't.


2 different kinds of faith? Before you were claiming that the man who believed in and accepted Jesus was the man that went to heaven. Remember when I asked you the question? You said that the other man was saved, simply for accepting Jesus.

But now you tell me there is 2 different kinds of faith? I guess saving faith is "blind faith", and intellectual faith is like "faith that the sun will rise tommorow"? Meaning, you can't question anything?

Plus, what about the fact that Jesus speaks in parables? He does that in order to give people understanding. Is that not intellectual in it's nature?

If you look at Proverbs 8 and 9, you will see many references to always going in the way of understanding, and wisdom. If you look at Proverbs 9, you might notice that it is almost the same scene as the Last Supper. It will show you what Jesus means by come eat of my bread and such. He is talking about getting understanding etc. In the OT, it is wisdom and understanding that show men the path to heaven. And so Jesus is that in the flesh in the NT.

The rich man's story proves 100% that it has nothing to do with simply accepting or believing in an idol. And Jesus tells people plain as day, he comes to bring sinners to repentence, and that people have to keep the commandments. He gives the understanding needed to do that.

reply to post by badmedia
Jesus exhorts believers to keep the commandments for SANCTIFICATION. Do NOT confuse "sanctification" with "salvation". Look up the meaning of the two if you are confused.

The old covenant God had with mankind, (to follow the Mosaic Law to be justified before God), died with Jesus Christ, He fulfilled it.

Read Hebrews 8:12-13

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

That's why we are justified before God, Christ's imputed righteousness. Now, when we try to keep the law for the purpose of sanctifying ourselves then it is still quite in effect. The big problem is when people confuse salvation with sanctification. It shouldn't happen.

Read the 10th chapter of Romans, specifically verse 9.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

Salvation is very very simple, just as the thief on the cross. Sanctification is a LOOOOOOOOONG process in a believer's life, takes diligent effort and lots of works



[edit on 29-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You are quoting Paul, not Jesus. And it amounts to nothing more than church dogma. Paul will never be considered valid in response to me, because he is an example of all that I was shown by the father not to do.

Paul acts no different than politicians of today. He praises Jesus, but then leads people astray telling them to do things contradictory to what Jesus said.

Paul makes up nearly half the NT, and quotes Jesus only once.

I have no interest in Paulism.

Quick example.

Jesus says:

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Paul says:

1 Cor 4

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

See that, Jesus says Call no man your father, except that which is heaven. Here Paul is telling people that he is their father.

Notice the part about call the rabbi's? Rabbi's are teachers. Call no man that. But Paul says to do otherwise. thousands of instructors? No, just 1. The father than the holy spirit.

1 Cor 12

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Here's another.

Paul:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

vs

James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And now, Romans 9 and 10.

Paul:

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So Paul says he will have mercy on whoever he wants.

But Jesus said otherwise.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Or how about

Romans 10:4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

vs Jesus:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus says plain as day, he did not come to destroy the law. But Paul says otherwise, and so Christians follow Paul, not Jesus.

I can keep going if you want. Christianity is the anti-christ religion, brought to the powers of this world by the false prophet Paul in the name of Christ. Of which, they then proceeded to kill and torture people in public, in order to fear the rest of the population, anyone who didn't go along. Oh yeah, you think that is what is going to happen in the future, but you fail to see - it's already happened and has been going on for nearly 2000 years.

You have to quote Paul in order to back up the church dogma, because Jesus says the opposite completely.

Sanctification? More Church dogma. Excuses put in to try and patch up and cover the lies.


[edit on 10/29/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


Well, we will have to agree to disagree, thank you for the spirited debate.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No thanks. I'll be pointing out what a bunch of fear mongering crap people such as yourself spew out every chance I get.

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No thanks. I'll be pointing out what a bunch of fear mongering crap people such as yourself spew out every chance I get.

Likewise I'll be telling people what Jesus Christ also said the rest of my days too.

And he taught more about Hell than any person in the Bible.

Thanks gains for the spirited debate!

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You will reap what you sow.

Crazy things about Christians, all about a personal relationship with god - but hell will literally have to come before you will actually allow for it.

reply to post by badmedia


My prayers daily are that God will bless his enemies.

Yet again, thank you for the spirited debate.

In order for it to be a debate, you'd have to actually answer and respond to the points the other person makes, rather than tucking tail and running as soon as you get stumped.

You prove that you are looking to exploit the weak minded, and people who are unable to think critically. Inside, your a raving wolf who takes delight in thinking others will be punished for not being like you. Truly despicable.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

reply to post by badmedia
Wow, you can't quit.. It's not "quitting", we have reached a point where we are just repeating our same positions. If we don't both say, "we disagree and it won't change!" Then the "correspondence" between us will keep going, and going, and going, and going, without ceasing. And we'll both be arguing AD NAUSEUM without ceasing.

So therefore,.. thank you for the spirited correspondence!