You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

Guess what? You don't own your land, either. You may think you do - you may even hold title to it. But you pay tax, right? Stop paying tax, and guess what? They take you off your land and take possession of it. Tax is basically the rent you pay your governments for the land. Oh, and if they decide they want your land, they can "condemn" it and take it over, giving you supposedly "fair market value".

All of our rights are only what our governments allow us to have. They can take them away any time they feel like it, without cause, and there is little you can do about it.

Nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread, so I will.

1: "You don't own your SUV/Truck/Car"

2: "Yes you do! If you pay for it"

My response 3:
You haven't actually paid for it if you used cash, because all cash is, is a promissory note. 'This note is legal tender throughout Australia', a 'note' given legal 'tender' status, is not money, it is tender "An offer which is capable of acceptance" according to Butterworths Australian Legal dictionary.
So in essence you are paying for your car with more debt... so you haven't actually 'paid' for your car, therefore, YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR CAR.

You do not own your car that you paid for with 'cash notes', because the promissory notes were printed from a treasury bond written on your behalf by representatives of the society you chose to vote and participate in. A security interest was created at the time the bond was created, to nullify the debt (provide equal exchange between the two commercial parties), and the bond was sold to the banks in exchange for 'cash notes', at interest.
Since we have seen inflation our whole lives (where inflation is the constant creation of more treasury bonds/'money'), the value of the security interest per person in a society, can only increase each year of their life. Each member of the Commonwealth of Australia (I think the same applies to Canada, too) owns an equal portion of the treasury security bonds appropriated from us at birth.
When they try to tell us that some people have more 'money' than other people in the country, I laugh at them because what they hold is not actually money, it is legal tender.


So, no, you do not own your car, because the debt notice that you used to pay for that car has a security bond posted against it, and the secretary of the treasury is holding it in trust for you, and is the legal owner because you haven't claimed it yet.



P.S When the sovereign movement takes over the whole world, and we enter into a global anarcho-capitalistic society, be prepared to see a REAL money system using gold-backed interest-free securities, THEN you will be able to say "I own the car that I paid for with real money I earned from a real job".

[edit on 23/10/2009 by nrky]

I'm glad to see this getting attention, so thank you OP. I threw that link of letters up on another page a week ago or so.

The only way you can get the MSO is if you buy a car cash and demand it. Even then you will get a hard time.

Once it's turned in, its gone. Forever.

Also, you have the right to travel as a human being under the law of the land.

Courts that operate under British Maritime Law(ALL of them, you will notice with a gold fringe around the flag), are the laws that are followed and attack your PERSON, not you as a flesh and blood human being. Also, they do not have to follow the Constitution because that applies to Common Law as well.




The only way to avoid this is to write letters out of court, OR ask them to change the flag to one without a gold fringe (they won't).


If you are caught driving, expect a beating. You will just infuriate and confuse police. I'm sure after a few times of fighting it out of court, they would just leave you be after that, and hey, maybe even question the system themselves.

Originally posted by Grayelf2009

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart

Well that is what the Oath Keepers are for. Im looking forward to replies from the members that are familar with the laws. Good post of another example of a goverment gone wild.

star for yousa

Has anyone sent this to the OathKeepers Web site?

Makes you want to get a horse!

second line

then why didn't the state of california come after me for totaling their car a few years back? total loss, insurance went right to me, not the state.

why doesn't the state pursue me for its loss?

because it was my car, that's why.

and when my sister-in-law was injured by an uninsured driver, why couldn't she recoup her loss from california?

because it's not their car, that's why.

california has a regulatory interest in my vehicle, not an ownership interest. not in any real sense anyway, only arguably in an MSO created legal fiction.

reply to post by SecretGoldfish


The state didn't do anything pertaining to those situations because you relinquish individual rights, as well as decision making, along with handing over ownership of your car.

Therefore, it is handled however they feel it should be handled. Hence, we all get screwed.

Of course you don't own your land. If you did, you would be a sovereign country and could kill anyone who invades (illegally immigrates) onto your property-country.

What you do own, however, is the right to use that property according to laws and ordinances set up by the local/state/federal government. Part of these ordinances/rule/laws s is to become a supporting member of the community in which you reside by paying a property tax which contributes to the funds of services like education, street repair, snow removal, library.. etc. All of this stuff that you get for for "free" in your community is usually funded by everyone who lives there in the form of property taxes.

What? Were you expected a FREE ride once you bought your little plot of land?

reply to post by ohh_pleasee


no, it's because there are insufficient ties between the state's ability to lien my title for them to hold me liable for any loss of property -- 'their' car . . . or for my sister-in-law to prove up their liability when she was struck by 'their' car.

if i can sell something as i see fit, move something as i see fit, bequeath something upon death as i see fit, then it's mine. i don't see how it can be otherwise, realistically, only hysterically.

in theory, california can take just about anything from me, my kid, even my dog, but it's not through its power as a property owner. so i guess i don't really 'own' anything if this is your stance i suppose. regulatory powers and powers of conservatorship can be broad.

arguing whether it's proper for the state to seize property as it does these days is one thing, and i won't argue the state has FAR too much power to regulate our lives and belongings . . . but it's just not really an ownership issue. you do own your car. the state can take it away. that's life i guess.

Originally posted by Pauligirl

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart
You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

Yeah, you do, if you pay for it.

First off, Allodial title is not for personal property.

The MCO or MSO is the manufacturer's papers. Shows when and where the vehicle was built and if tariffs involved if imported. When you buy the car/truck/trailer, the MSO is turned in and you get a title in your name. If it wasn't done this way, there would be nothing to show you owned the vehicle.

I tried to read that web page with Mr. McCarthy's letters. I couldn't read it all the way through because he was being such an idiot. But, it was good for laugh when I read the response from the fella at the Motor Vehicle Bureau

Thank you for the compliment on my "candid" response to your previous letter of February 10, 1986. Please allow me one observation. The eight months you have spent in this quest could have been shortened considerably had you refrained from convoluted analogies and, in your own words, "gotten to the point a bit sooner with more honest and complete answers".

Please feel free to use any of my responses as "material evidence" when you are arrested for driving an improperly registered motor vehicle in the State of Missouri. Although the arresting officer and the court may find my letters instructional, those officers will, no doubt, quickly come to the point with an "honest and complete" request to see your Missouri certificate of registration. Of course, we know that you will not have one, because you have spent eight months gathering valuable "material evidence" from my office in order to stall application for Missouri title and registration documents. You may discover at that point that Missouri State Highway Patrol troopers are also quite "candid".

Now that's classic.

I agree with you 100% as the the writer of the story in the link provided obviously has zero clue of the language of law.

Manufacturing is the state of creating something.

Quote from Wikipedia : Manufacturing

Manufacturing is the use of machines, tools and labor to make things for use or sale.

The term may refer to a range of human activity, from handicraft to high tech, but is most commonly applied to industrial production, in which raw materials are transformed into finished goods on a large scale.

Such finished goods may be used for manufacturing other, more complex products, such as household appliances or automobiles, or sold to wholesalers, who in turn sell them to retailers, who then sell them to end users - the "consumers".

Manufacturer’s Certificate of Origin

Quote from Wikipedia : Manufacturer's Statement of Origin

A Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin (MCO), also known as a Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin (MSO), is a specified document certifying the country of origin of the merchandise required by certain foreign countries for tariff purposes, it sometimes requires the signature of the consulate of the country to which it is destined.

A Certificate of Origin is employed to certify that a good being exported either from the United States into Canada or Mexico or from Canada or Mexico into the United States qualifies as an originating good for purposes of preferential tariff treatment under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

This is the same type of demand as the Department of Agriculture demanding that a seller of produce puts the country of origin on bananas, to inform the public, thereby stating the country of origin, to better inform the public as to where their fruit is grown from, in case they want to know, as well as if they want to boycott products from that country due to their knowledge about the politics of the region.

An allodial title is nothing of the sort as previously stated in any way whatsover.

Quote from Wikipedia : Alloidal Title

Allodial title is a concept in some systems of property law.

It describes a situation where real property (land, buildings and fixtures) is owned free and clear of any encumbrances, including liens, mortgages and tax obligations.

Allodial title is inalienable, in that it cannot be taken by any operation of law for any reason whatsoever.

In common legal use, allodial title is used to distinguish absolute ownership of land by individuals from feudal ownership, where property ownership is dependent on relationship to a lord or the sovereign.

That is a concept from the Middle Ages, also called the Dark Ages, where ignorance ruled due to corruption of sovereign powers, Governments, and as well the elite powers who took advantage of the ignorance of the masses.

In this case the thread is about vehicles and the misleading and misinformed populace will be easily mislead and I have to wonder the original posters intent towards people who know no better due to their ignorance of the laws of the United States.

In order to sell a vehicle, a manufacturer has to supply the M.S.O. for the vehicle, so that they can later re-sell the vehicle with a bill of sale which is the legal documentation stating someone has now purchased said vehicle and is now in possession and ownership of said vehicle.

Quote from Wikipedia : Bill of Sale

A bill of sale is a legal document made by a 'seller' to a purchaser, reporting that on a specific date, at a specific locality, and for a particular sum of money or other "value received", the seller sold to the purchaser a specific item of personal, or parcel of real, property of which he had lawful possession.

It is a written instrument which evidences the transfer of title to personal property from the vendor, seller, to the vendee, buyer.

A bill of sale is furthermore a contract of sale, a commitment of purchasing said item, vehicle, home, jewelry etc, with the intent towards ownership.

Quote from Wikipedia : Contract of Sale

A contract of sale is a legal contract an exchange of goods, services or property to be exchanged from seller (or vendor) to buyer (or purchaser) for an agreed upon value in money (or money equivalent) paid or the promise to pay same.

It is a specific type of legal contract.

This website is about Denying Ignorance not about creating more of it.

Historical-Mozart, is your intent to mislead and misdirect people, or are you trolling for free legal advice from people who actually know the law?

As far as purchasing it with money or legal tender that is a whole other matter.

I highly suggest anyone who wants to know the law either look it up in a law book for themselves or go to a website like this one for Legal Help.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Great Thread, most people think they own things, but in the good ole U.S.A. you don't really own anything.
You might think you own it, bought and paid for, but then if you own it you have to pay personal property Tax, what the heck is that, I paid for it?

They call some Countries backward, but in these so called backward Countries you really own your property, land, and you don't have to pay Taxes on it. This land has been in some famlies for hundreds of years.

Back here in the good ole U.S.A. if if Fema turns on REX84 or calls martial law you don't own anything, they will take what ever you have and move you off your own property. (I mean their own property)

I would like to, but I can't even say you don't own me, because they do they own me and everyone else, lot, stock and barrel.
So much for the false freedom people think they might have in the US.

Then they let you buy the China junk, they let you think you own it, but it does not last that long anyhow, so it's just temporary anyhow, so you can think you own it till it goes in garbage next week or soon after.

The only thing you can really own is your dreams and I believe they are working on way to get to those.


[edit on 23-10-2009 by googolplex]

Originally posted by Dynamitrios
Actually every ware or product that is beeing "sold", has already been paid for (by the labor of the guys who manufactured it. They worked on it and got paid.)

Charging a fee for said product (sale price) actually isnt allowed. Its some kind of "interrest rate". By paying the full price, this product has to become fully yours (with all the rights of ownership etc.)
In fact as long a worker produces a product, this product has to be free.

You as a customer pay the company the material and the risk that company takes, which is not legal.
The companys acoount is balanced no matter what. The price they´re demanding is just an excessive interrest. Illegal practice

So let me get this straight, through out the ENTIRE world companies or individuals who charge money for a product are doing so illegally? And this has been going on for, like ever?

Originally posted by SecretGoldfish
then why didn't the state of california come after me for totaling their car a few years back? total loss, insurance went right to me, not the state.

why doesn't the state pursue me for its loss?

because it was my car, that's why.

and when my sister-in-law was injured by an uninsured driver, why couldn't she recoup her loss from california?

because it's not their car, that's why.

california has a regulatory interest in my vehicle, not an ownership interest. not in any real sense anyway, only arguably in an MSO created legal fiction.

And what did you do with that "insurance money"? You went right out and "purchased" another car to replace the one you lost. Most likely, you even "purchased" a car which was newer/faster/better/prettier/more expensive. If so, any "money" added to the insurance toward the new purchase is your recent labor.

Your recent labor (added money), plus old your old labor (insurance), as well as your future labor (tax/interest) all go right back to the bankers (via the state).

If anybody owns anything, it is the bankers. Just about everything in this world of any monetary value other than some gifts of nature (air/water/firewood/berries/etc..) is simply a representation of your labor.

Your labor is what the bankers own, and in effect, they own you.

Labor is the only thing in our world which truly holds value. If you pick up a berry from the ground to eat, you have paid for that berry with your labor. That berry has no value until you pick it up and put it in your mouth.

So if you buy a $30,000 car, the only way you can pay for it/own it is with your labor.

While bankers set the interest rates and such, it is not really relevant in my opinion. I fear it is a natural law that labor is in a permanent state of "inflation". Because berries digest and cars rust, your labor at some point is used up and no longer has value.

Therefore, you are the one who sets the value of your labor. Only you can choose what you will work for. Only you can choose how much labor you are willing to trade for a car.

The state, bankers, lawyers, owners, workers, anyone and everyone else are only "middlemen" who facilitate the trade of your labor (which is a representation of their labor).

The state/bankers are "stealing" nothing from you. Only you decide how much labor you will trade.

What are you willing to work for? Exactly what you have.

same with ur kids (in the uk) if u look it says informants name on the certificate thats why social services are aloud to take your kids away n #

reply to post by Historical-Mozart


If someone has not already posted it, the answer is the "STRAWMAN", your name in all capital letters, you can recalim it or redeem it and then the State has no authority over you OR your property.

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

abundanthope.net...

Read all the articles at the links and you "may" understand it and be able to out yourself. YOU are not a "person" within the motor vehicle code!!! More later.

It's also the same with children in the US as well. The state is the rightful parent, not the genetic father and mother. Look at it this way:

1. When post people get married they are married with a 'Marriage License'. By doing this, three parties enter the contract (license), the state, the first spouse, and the second spouse. What most don't realize is that the state is the head of this contract.

2. When you have children, since the state is the head of the relationship (and I would loosely say they are also the 'owner' of it) the also are the head (or owner) of any property (children) that is created as a result of the relationship.

3. It gets even more interesting when you realize that the state doesn't know (legally) that there are children until they are registered to the state through their 'Birth Certificate'. The hospitals are set up as ports of entry so that these children can be imported into the country.

4. Once registered, your children are essentially on loan to you until the state deems otherwise. And yes, it is 'UNTIL'. They can, and often do, use this power. This is where the state gets the authority to take children from parents when then see fit.

I realize some people who know ALOT about this realize that I've either left things out, over-simplified, or explained it wrong, but it's just my limited and practical description of why you're not really your child's parents in the legal realm.

better yet. If you purchase gold and deliver to your home, you receive a nice little pamphlet that lets you know that at any point the gold may be repossessed, even that you have paid for it and it is in your possession. This is based on a law that was passed by end of WWII where the government accessed all bank deposit boxes and retrieved personal gold for government use. In a case of emergency the government can do that now.

Also, this video relates alot to this subject. He explains things well.

Two notes though:
1) Some of the material applies only to Canada, although it's mostly transcendent.
2) Be careful with the information. There are lots of loopholes, and this guy knows the system really well. If you slip up in the slightest, you can get your butt handed to you.

Google Video Link

And what did you do with that "insurance money"? You went right out and "purchased" another car to replace the one you lost. Most likely, you even "purchased" a car which was newer/faster/better/prettier/more expensive. If so, any "money" added to the insurance toward the new purchase is your recent labor.

nope, well, partly.

i got a MUCH cheaper car, and put the rest (the bulk really) into our etrade account.

errr, i mean . . . into the government's etrade account since i don't really own anything

right?

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart
You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

If you have a birth certificate, you do not own your PERSON.

(google strawman / freeman)


This is nothing new.



If you have a marriage certificate... you have invited a third party into your marriage.