You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

reply to post by TarzanBeta


You hit the nail on the head my friend. None of us truly OWN anything with the way things are set up...

Think you "own" your home, or land? Try not paying your "property taxes" for a few, and see if you still "own" or are even allowed to STAY at said location.

We are truly tax-slaves from cradle to grave, and no one EVER owns anything....

Originally posted by SecretGoldfish
then why didn't the state of california come after me for totaling their car a few years back? total loss, insurance went right to me, not the state.

why doesn't the state pursue me for its loss?

because it was my car, that's why.

and when my sister-in-law was injured by an uninsured driver, why couldn't she recoup her loss from california?

because it's not their car, that's why.

california has a regulatory interest in my vehicle, not an ownership interest. not in any real sense anyway, only arguably in an MSO created legal fiction.

Well then since the govt. only interest is regulatory then instead of destroying the MSO once it is stored on the microfiche they can simply send it to you the rightful owner, they are gonna send you a certificate anyway right?

reply to post by Pauligirl

The MCO or MSO is the manufacturer's papers. Shows when and where the vehicle was built and if tariffs involved if imported. When you buy the car/truck/trailer, the MSO is turned in and you get a title in your name. If it wasn't done this way, there would be nothing to show you owned the vehicle.

This is absolutely not true and as a former inventory manager for a General Motors Franchise Dealership who ordered and received cars including their MCO's directly from the Factory I have dealt with thousands of MCO's and it's important to understand an MCO is like a bearer bond. The fact that you posses the MCO and the MCO establishes the precise vehicle through it's Vehicle Identification Number and it's place and date and manufacturer of origin does legally in fact identify you as the owner simply because you are in possession of the MCO. Only the actual owner of the vehicle can posses the MCO, at the moment a lien is taken out on the vehicle the MCO goes to the lien holder to establish it's ownership as collateral.

I have had brand new vehicles stolen off of the lot and end up in impound. You can only get a vehicle back from impound when you can establish ownership.

A brand new unsold vehicle has no registration so there is no registered owner with the state. There is no Certificate of Title to the vehicle because the vehicle has yet to be titled and won't be until sold to a retail customer.

No registration, no Certificate of Title then how can you identify the vehicle belongs to you to the impound lot to get them to release.

Very simple show the MCO which I have on over a dozen different occassions. Who ever is in possession of a vehicles MCO is the De Facto and De Jure owner of said vehicle and the MCO absolutely establishes that legally as it is the original source official document recognizing the property and that the bearer of it owns the property.

An MCO is and basically functions like a Bearer Bond an anonymous instrument of ownership that the document itself establishes who ever physically posseses it as owner.

Your attempt at a 'common sense' explanation sounds good but it's based on not actually knowing all the facts and making some assumptions.

The above are the actual facts though.


[edit on 23/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by cloakndagger
Personal property tax is the ball and chain that keeps people in the system. If you bought a piece of property and decided to live off the grid and out of the system you would be mistaken. Where are you going to get the cash needed to pay the taxes? Gotcha.

You would have no choice but to sell some of the crops you raise in order to pay the state. It takes your labor to raise those crops so in a sense your still a slave to the system. There is no escape unless you find a country that has no personal property tax.

There is a way around property taxes. If the property is owned free and clear,you create a deed of trust to yourself. Place a several million dollar lein against the property and you and your children as lein holders. Quit paying the property taxes. Before the property can be sold for back taxes the lein must be paid. Sort of like a first mortage must be met before a second mortage can recover any payment.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by daddyroo45]

then the court record (pick a state, any state) should be absolutely LITTERED with cases of states securing autos under a property law theory rather than based on its regulatory powers.

so just cite us a few cases. heck, at least extend us the courtesy of citing even ONE case of a state claiming a property right interest in a vehicle 'owned' or 'registered' to someone other than the state.

we'll be waiting.

a loooooooong time i suspect.

*edited for wording*







[edit on 23-10-2009 by SecretGoldfish]

in california, if i'm a deadbeat dad, the state can seize my car. it's stupid, but they can do it if i'm in arrears because, hey, the state isn't going to pay to raise my kid.

but how do they do it?

they have to go to court, prove up that i in fact am obligated to make support payment, prove up that i in fact didn't make the payments, lien my vehicle, then sell it at public auction.

but if it was a simple matter of california owning my vehicle, they wouldn't have to do that. they would just need to prove up legal ownership (by presenting the MCO which would be self-authenticating) and that's that. a FAR easier task.

so the state wastes millions of dollars litigating over possession of its own property why?

your argument might be defensible in a dictionary-sense, but in terms of actual legal precedent and procedure, it's bankrupt. the state does not have an ownership interest in your car.

prove me wrong. cite the case.

Originally posted by Aeons
I've got one better for you. And this applies to all common law system, and most First World legal systems.

Did you know that your parents are not your parents, and that your children's parents are not you?

You are merely a parent in location, acting on behalf of the state who is the real parent. Real law. Europe. UK. Canada. New Zealand. Australia. USA. Probably others, but I have never bothered to see how many more countries have this legal concept of society as the real parent and biological parents merely representatives on the ground.

Could you please support this allegation with some sort of substantive reference (which does not mean a link to a opinion or Alex Jones sort of website).

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Pauligirl

 

An MCO is and basically functions like a Bearer Bond an anonymous instrument of ownership that the document itself establishes who ever physically posseses it as owner.

Your attempt at a 'common sense' explanation sounds good but it's based on not actually knowing all the facts and making some assumptions.

The above are the actual facts though.

Protoplasmic Traveler,


Thank you very much for your added information -- that helps greatly!
Additional facts are very important, so what you have added is very valuable. I had to go with what I had and I've yet to hear from someone who has the knowledge that you have, so your contribution is very valuable and I'm going to incorporate your information into my mental database about the MCO/MSO issue.


I'd give you a flag, if I could.


A few questions:

1) Can one recover an MCO from a DMV?

2) Or can one buy a car direct from the manufacturer, getting an MCO, bypassing the dealers? (probably not)

3) Can one petition directly to a manufacturer for an MCO after a vehicle[sic] has been registered?

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart
You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

If you have a birth certificate, you do not own your PERSON.

(google strawman / freeman)

This is nothing new.

If you have a marriage certificate... you have invited a third party into your marriage.

Doomsday,


I agree with all those points and I've searched ATS and those points seem to have been well-covered. There's a lot of smart, aware folks at ATS.


I would caution, however -- and I'm sure that you already know this -- about the use of the term "person", as it is now a term that connotes a legal-fiction status, an entity that is automatically under the control by the legal-fiction government.


Some have used the term "natural person", but I don't know how effective that it. Others have use the capitalized terms "Man on the Land" or "Woman on the Land", which is what I prefer.


This entire issue of legal/Law issues is a huge can of worms that have multiple rabbit holes going in multiple directions. It can be absolutely confusing.

Originally posted by daddyroo45
There is a way around property taxes. If the property is owned free and clear,you create a deed of trust to yourself. Place a several million dollar lein against the property and you and your children as lein holders. Quit paying the property taxes. Before the property can be sold for back taxes the lein must be paid. Sort of like a first mortage must be met before a second mortage can recover any payment.

What you have described is the " UCC redemption" movement. Just google that term: " UCC redemption " and you'll come up with a ton of sites. People have claimed success with this strategy and I've attended seminars on this topic.


But there is one fatal flaw in that strategy (amongst several flaws) and that it is based entirely on the UCC, which itself is a code created by a legal-fiction, de facto "government", so if you use that strategy, you cannot use the Sovereign Man on the Land strategy at the same time. It's one or the other.

Originally posted by daddio

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

abundanthope.net...

Read all the articles at the links and you "may" understand it and be able to out yourself. YOU are not a "person" within the motor vehicle code!!! More later.

Thank you, daddio, for those useful urls.


I have had fascinating battles with the local "courts" over that very issue of the STRAWMAN issue and have gone back and forth, back and forth with the judges and, let me tell you, they HATE this issue, as it is a thorn in their arses.

Originally posted by true-life
better yet. If you purchase gold and deliver to your home, you receive a nice little pamphlet that lets you know that at any point the gold may be repossessed, even that you have paid for it and it is in your possession. This is based on a law that was passed by end of WWII where the government accessed all bank deposit boxes and retrieved personal gold for government use. In a case of emergency the government can do that now.

true-life,


Thank you for that information -- have a url to support this? I thought that this government precious metal repossession "law" was from 1933, not from after WWII, so a url for this would be appreciated. Of course I'll do some googling on this as well.

There is absolutely no one on this earth that is going to tell me I dont own my car, or anything I have payed for. I dont care what some little dipsh*t lawyer, politician, or anyone tells me.

I have a nice collection of weapons and plenty of ammo that agrees with this post.

Originally posted by Pauligirl
Yeah, you do, if you pay for it.

First off, Allodial title is not for personal property.

The MCO or MSO is the manufacturer's papers. Shows when and where the vehicle was built and if tariffs involved if imported. When you buy the car/truck/trailer, the MSO is turned in and you get a title in your name. If it wasn't done this way, there would be nothing to show you owned the vehicle.

I tried to read that web page with Mr. McCarthy's letters. I couldn't read it all the way through because he was being such an idiot. But, it was good for laugh when I read the response from the fella at the Motor Vehicle Bureau

Thank you for the compliment on my "candid" response to your previous letter of February 10, 1986. Please allow me one observation. The eight months you have spent in this quest could have been shortened considerably had you refrained from convoluted analogies and, in your own words, "gotten to the point a bit sooner with more honest and complete answers".

Please feel free to use any of my responses as "material evidence" when you are arrested for driving an improperly registered motor vehicle in the State of Missouri. Although the arresting officer and the court may find my letters instructional, those officers will, no doubt, quickly come to the point with an "honest and complete" request to see your Missouri certificate of registration. Of course, we know that you will not have one, because you have spent eight months gathering valuable "material evidence" from my office in order to stall application for Missouri title and registration documents. You may discover at that point that Missouri State Highway Patrol troopers are also quite "candid".

Now that's classic.

ah, another fanboy of the system. Don't have to worry about police cause this fellow will police you when they are not present.

You don't own your vehicle, this is very old news. You get equitable title and the state gets legal title. The fellow in the letters got it backwards.

Yes, you might get taken to court over it, and yes, you might have to prove to the court their lack of jurisdiction in a counter claim. You can also seek damages for the frauds they are committing, as well as violations of your right to travel, and violations of their oath of office, and constitution. Since every individual breach of said items = 10,000 each according to i believe USC after everything is said and done it would exceed 2mill... apply this amount to said cops and/or whoever else's hazard bond/BAR bond, etc...

see how quickly it gets dismissed...

I would explain the details of such an endeavor to you but it would be a complete waste of energy. This has been done by many people, and usually once they realize you are aware of the fraud, you don't get picked on much after that...

You however little sheepy will remain where society has put you, and every time you get out of line you will be put back where you belong, in your place...

reply to post by Historical-Mozart


I think this is over thinking the matter. You gloss over theft, but of all things, in all practical terms, you don't own anything because it is subject to theft.

In my life I have lost far more property to theft than to any paperwork technicalities.

-rrr

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


SpartanKingLeonidas,


I gave you a star for your well-organized efforts to put forth information.


I just wish to state that I have NO intention of misleading anyone; I just sincerely wish that people become aware of the truth about their ownership of their cars that really is in question, given how the governments are structured.


I will give a fuller response soon, but I need to take off on my daily hike up to the top of the mountain in my daily efforts to lose a pound a day of unwanted weight.


So thank you for your input.

i love how so many people here do not even understand basic's of such a simple concept as ownership.

If the state arbitrarily decided to tow your vehicle, what would you do?

Think you'll get it back?

Whine all you want but you will get nothing back unless they actually want to give it back to you. How can they do that? Cause you do not own your vehicle...

I can hear a lot of bravado right now, but that's just your HELPLESS ego talking. Someone just gave it a good 'ol tasty bucket of truth and as always it pulls away in disgust, shivering in fear at the fact that it might actually be fact...


I have a hard time telling this to the elderly who have paid off their homes. Then they don't have enough to pay for taxes and the land[title] gets seized by the state, auctioned off, and they are intimidated off of their land.

How is that possible? Simple...they DO NOT own the land. It is taken away, at gun point...

If someone can take something from you, can you own it?

Can use the same concept with rights... If supposedly have the "right to live" and a cop kills you and gets away with it without any charges. How can you have the right to live? You don't have the right to live, it is a privilege that is rescinded at the states discretion...

continue on clueless little sheepy's while heckling, chiding all messengers. no one is going to come and save you...

Go back to sleep America, your government is in control, you are free to do what we tell you...

[edit on 23-10-2009 by injunfeller]

The easiest way to look at this is that the MSO is your certificate of ownership.
However, because in our beast system of misguided and perverted laws, you transfer the RIGHT to OWNERSHIP over the STATE of ********** in exchange for a controllable PRIVILEGE that they use to CONTROL your movements within state boundary lines.

This has been done to make you a SLAVE of the STATE. Slavery did not end in 1861. Ownership was merely transferred from the MAN to the STATE. This is why terms like DOMICILE and ALLODIAL are so important in LAW.

If you are a resident of Oklahoma, you are basically saying that your actual allodial home is Washington D.C., however you can't own property there because the land was given to the Federal Government by the STATES surrounding it. You are in essence, a SLAVE of the US Government, a Corporation, that occupies a 12x12 mile area called Washington D.C.

On the other hand, if you are DOMICILED in TEXAS, you are a Citizen of the State Republic of Texas, not of Washington D.C. and therefore, free and clear of the OWNERSHIP thus declared by being a RESIDENT.

Just tell every CORPORATE STATE GOVERNMENT to STFU. They don't own you. You are not their CHATTLE. YOU OWN THEM and therefore, THEY must do what YOU TELL THEM TO !

Hi Noob here
Interesting post.
Just yesterday, my hubby received a letter from our insurance company stating that his drivers license was suspended.
He was in shock and he couldn't figure out "why" his license was suspended.
He called the insurance company back and they couldn't give him an answer "why" it was suspended, but told him to call the DMV.
He decided to go to the DMV and figure it out in person instead of dealing with the idiots on the phone.
It's not like my hubby is a drunk driver or even a drug dealer...it's just that he "Forgot" to tell the DMV right away that we just recently moved. DUH
So much for the warning. We did get it fixed, but watch out..they will suspend your license ASAP once they realize you aren't registered at the right address...even if it is a forgetful mistake.

Interesting thread, I've learned something new today, but I'm wondering how the concept of "you don't own anything" plays out in the real world.

For instance, say I live in California, a state in obvious financial trouble. Why doesn't some state official delegate people, such as police, to go door to door to collect plasma tv's, art, furniture etc to be sold at auction to raise money for the state's budget? If the state does indeed own everything, this shouldn't be an issue, right?

Or, why does the state not set up road blocks and just sieze people's cars to sell? They own it anyway, right?

That's the part I'm not getting. If the "state" does own everything, why the lack of state siezure of property, cars, children etc? Yes those things do occur, usually during some sort of legal proceeding, but why is it not rampant?

Del