The thread title is extremely provocative indeed, I will give the OP that much!
However, what the title lacks in subtlety, I think the main post made up for with some reasonable points and opinions.

I don't care if you're an American, Irishman, Chilean, WHATEVER....If people come a'knockin' at your border with extreme firepower, what would YOU do? I know I would personally take up arms and try to kick them out, protect my land and my people etc. And here's something else to think about: How many Iraqis have gone off half-cocked on American soldiers because WE were responsible for the deaths of their family members? I'm guessing a LOT, and that would get MY blood pumping too. How many Iraqis have we turned against us now? Their cities are still shot to crap, electricity is inconsistent at best, infrastructure torn to hell, family members left dead or disabled, quality of life down the toilet....Maybe enough to make a whole generation of people hate the USA.

The point is, I don't think most of you are looking at this subject with an objective, critical, scrutinizing eye. I mean, "gee golly you've been over there, you must know ALL about it!!!" might fly with your friends and family, but that just isn't enough. It's not enough to know all the intricacies of any ONE society(let alone two), and it isn't enough to convince me that ALL those brown people over THERE are extremists.

America is sick right now. We "police" the world, looking for any conceivably viable way to "liberate" nations halfway across the world(as long as they have oil/strategic value), demonizing others based on what we perceive as sick or inhumane beliefs and/or ideologies, and meanwhile we can't even figure out what's going on in our own backyard. Our plastic consumer pop culture is likely one of the vilest things that we have ever unleashed upon this planet, and yet we ignore that. We ignore OUR problems, all the while SCREAMING while we point out the faults of others.
Turn off the TV for a minute, and let's think about things objectively. Have some compassion, try to see things from other possible viewpoints....Because there is a whole world out there that detests our government and what we have done, what we are still doing.

Did you know that the murder rate is higher here in many US cities than it is in Iraq? And Pre-Iraq war, the US blows Iraq out of the water obviously. Food for thought.

Originally posted by btyoung21
Oozy, just a quick question.

I realize that the US military has indeed caused A LOT of civilian casualities and it cannot be denied.

What about suicide bombers who attack PURELY civilians targets? Suicide bombers who target areas wherein US military units are absolutely NOT PRESENT? What is your opinion on this?

Example: A suicide commando bombs a nursery school, with no US soldiers in that specific target.

Consequence = Schoolchildren die. US army/marines stay chilling back in camp.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by btyoung21]

[edit on 2-10-2009 by btyoung21]

Wait... I'm going MC Donald, I will edit this post and give you your full response which you deserve since you are one of the few who actually tried to move the discussion forward.

Thanks bro, I will be awaiting your answer.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by btyoung21]

Originally posted by oozyism
I'm already overwhelmed with replies, you should wait your turn Any comment can be taken out of context and turned to what it is not. My comment relates to the fact that ATS is still asking questions just like me.

Well then while you are replying to others remember ATS is not against you. Your own words are. Maybe you can answer mine then? Are you 100% sure they are completely just with no other Agenda?


[edit on 2-10-2009 by The-Hammer]

Your initial responses were removed for irrelevance. Try as you might, you can't make my head explode with mere sarcasm.

That sealed it, for me. Oozy, I KNOW what rock you crawled out from under. I don't know what country you live in now, but I'm willing to bet it ain't the USA, because I'm relatively sure you're on one of those "lists" of folks that don't make it past customs without a visit to the crossbar hotel.

I live in New Zealand

Yeah sure arrest me for expressing my views, I guess freedom of speech only applies when it is on the power's side. I hope you understand that

I never said anything about arresting you for expressing your views. The implication, for those unable to catch nuances, was that you're probably on one of the "watchlists". You don't get there by merely having unorthodox views.

Twist my words as you will, it won't change them.

US professional soldiers target MILITARY personnel, including your precious "freedom fighters". If civilians are being used as shield by your "brave warriors", they die too.

So they say, and Al-Qaeda says they don't target civilians.

Al Qaeda No. 2: We don't kill innocents

And what about the drone attacks:

Fourteen Iraqis were reported killed and five injured early yesterday morning after an American war plane obliterated a family house in the north of the country. The military said it was a mistake.

Were civilians being taken as human shields?

The Al Qaeda quote is misleading in extremis. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to who Al-Quaeda views as "innocents". See, you said "civilians", but Zawahiri said "innocents". I already know the answer, but perhaps the others would like to learn. Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

As has been mentioned before, sometimes innocents ARE accidentally killed in the fogs of war. That would be different from actually TARGETTING them, as I've already stated. By your own admission, your "holy warriors" are killing at least 75% of the civilians killed. Those are all accidents too? Maybe they should lay down their weapons before they "accidentally" shoot themselves, eh?

In contrast, your "holy warriors" target CIVILIANS, and if a WARRIOR is in the way, he dies too.

That is something you have to prove:

Al Qaeda No. 2: We don't kill innocents

Already answered above. I hate repeating myself.

BIG damn difference. The only military target on 9-11 was the Pentagon, and most of those fellows (but not all) are just "chairborne commandos", and thus not much of a threat.

ATS is still cautious to blame Al-Qaeda for the attacks.

I'm not ATS, I'm ME. Yes, I blame Al-Qaeda for the attacks, since they've admitted responsibility. This issue has already been addressed in this thread, and you have conveniently ignored it, preferring instead to keep repeating your quote from Zawahiri, as if it were some sort of objective truth.

In the WTC, 50,000 CIVILIANS were targetted. Maybe your intel told you it was a seething nest of Rangers and Special Forces disguised as civilians, eh?

And we are still investigating the attacks. New York citizen filled a petition you should know that

Who is this "we" you speak of? When Al-Qaeda took responsibility, that pretty much closed the case for me. No one in their right mind would accept responsibility for that, knowing what would be coming, if they HADN'T done it.

That was a PATHETIC attempt at propaganda, accidentally targetted at an audience that is accustomed to THINKING.

Propaganda, nothing I wrong was propaganda, since you are accusing me of such you need to prove it

As you say, nothing is inherently wrong with propaganda. I tend to take issue with the blatantly FALSE variety of it, though. To be honest, I've offered as much or more evidence as you have. Before calling me out on it, put up your own. If need be, I can track mine down and deliver much more. Especially more than just ONE Zawahiri quote, out of context. careful what you wish for, you may get it. Then the dance is done, eh?

I'm acquainted with an older generation of mujahideen. Men with honor, unlike the current crop. I can think of NO instance in which those men intentionally targetted civilians. Not so with your current "holy warriors".

The older generation of mujahideen served America's purpose, the new generation doesn't. That is why the propaganda against them. See it is very simple but people seem it is complicated. How can you start an unjustified war? By demonizing your enemy, and that is what America has done. In your head the Jihadists are some sort of demons who want to take over the world and kill who ever doesn't convert to Islam.

Perhaps so, bit from my viewpoint America served the purpose of those HONORABLE Muj, by coming to their aid when they were in dire straights. One thing was for sure, America's purpose back then didn't involve killing off their own innocent countrymen, and neither was that the purpose of THOSE mujahideen. As I said before, I know of NO case in which they did so.

Don't equate those mujahideen with the Taliban. You and I BOTH know they weren't the same. YOUR taliban didn't come into existence until several years after the Soviet war.

Same for Al-Qaeda. Yes, Bin Laden WAS there, but back then there was no taliban or Al-Qaeda. To say otherwise would be a blatant lie.

THEY are cowards. THEY choose to fight those whom they hope can't fight back.

So many people call them cowards but the truth is that they are the only one fighting the worlds most powerful nation. Common, get real. Are you living in a dream world? Not even Russia has the balls to step against the Great Almighty US.

They fight Americans when they can't find any innocents to execute. Doesn't make them particularly brave in my book.

Your fathers were MUCH better men, and I wish they had raised you better. I reckon they were too busy killing enemy SOLDIERS to give you the attention you needed.

Our fathers fought for the same cause, to get rid of foreign occupiers and their sons are doing the same thing. The only difference is that our fathers were fighting your enemy, see at this point I could call you guys cowards for letting the mujahideen do the fighting, the same mujahideen who are fighting America right now.

Nope. I've already been over that. it's NOT the same mujahideen as is fighting now. The older mujahideen still had their honor, or else gave a damn good impression that they had.

Some of us DID fight there, contrary to your insinuation. Be that as it may, Afghanistan was under attack, not America, by the Soviets. Therefore the US had no excuse to commit troops to the war. Those who did go went as private citizens, or in some cases as quiet contractors for the government. Who do you think taught Afghans to use Stingers and such? We DID hand over a ton of money and material, without which you would now be speaking Russian and living off borscht.

It's just hilarious how Afghanistan repaid the US for that assistance, isn't it?

Originally posted by oozyism

Wait... I'm going MC Donald,

I'll take a Bigmac, Large order of Fries and coke. no wait, Make that two Bigmacs and one large fries and two cokes.

Umm hold the ice in one please.

Oh yeah and super size it!

Ooz, dont you think it is a little hypocritical to hate America, but then go eat at McDonalds, which is an American company whose taxes support the war? Maybe you should try McAhmeds instead.

But I will forgive you, since I know firsthand that McDonalds Coke and Fries are addictive.

I still think that we shouldntpray for jihadists though, unless we are praying that they come to their senses and lay down their weapons and quit blowing up innocent civilians and women and children.

Ooz,

Don't waste your time with the brainwashed people of our society. They will never change their minds. They are in fact just as crazy as the extremists.

This world needs to be run by neutrals, and it will be done.

The time of greed and corruption are over, and it's only a matter of time.

When America attacks Iran, the world will then turn against America, and the civilization will then crumble, and a New World Order will take place.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

i have to be honest
if this is a thread saying lets have a moment of silence for dead jihadists then we are really different people

personally i think religious fanatics are no better then the corrupt in government that so many people here hate on and talk about

in my eyes the two are hand in hand and not able to exist without each other, they are both codependent and both need to become extinct

honestly i also dont know what came 1st, the religious fanatics or the corrupt in government

it seems religion was the 1st government and neither the fanatics or any of them deserve a moment of silence

no one trying to control someone elses life deserves a moment of silence

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Dramey]

You amuse me...
Idiot.

Jihad (in this case) is nothing more than propaganda. The extreme Muslims of today are doing nothing more than what the Roman Catholics (tried) to do when the Great Awakening happened.

For centuries, they were the enlightened ones while Europe wallowed away in the Dark Ages. They (and the Chinese) were the height of human culture!

Now, the western world has caught up and surpassed the Muslim world who we now think is backwards for the way they treat their women. (By the by... all that veil crap and honor killings is NOT in the Koran. It is in one of those pesky addendum volumes that priest have written over the centuries... kinda like the Jews and their "cannot walk a mile on the Sabbath", thing)

Jihad was allowed for the purpose of defending one's home from an invader or defending one's country from an invader. The only people that can even pretend to TRULY be Jihadist are the Palestinians. The rest, are just pretenders. I will give no moment of silence for these criminals.

In fact, I would spit on their graves if I could find them.

Incidentally... they have found an ancient Koran written only 80 years after Mohammed's death. The translation is open to interpretation.
It's possible that instead of virgins... that people that loose their lives for Allah will be "comforted by cool grapes."


...And yes... I have read parts of the Koran and still have the one given to me. I know what I am talking about.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by sisgood]

The question posed by the op seems silly to me and that may be in part due to me being active duty army. I will try to remain objective here.

To answer the op's request for a moment of silence I would have to say not in our country of the USA we won’t. And I will tell you why.

Although there is collateral damage from our bombs and children die and sure we have taken out a house or school I say the people for whatever reason we are fighting them for should not have hid there in the first place.

I would not hide in a school because I have morals and I know that my presence there creates a hostile environment. And could lead to innocents dying and I don't want that on my conscience.

I will not honor those that like cowards hide in highly populated areas to maximize the civilian casualties when we strike. Just so they can further there own propaganda.

You see civilian deaths in the news from our attacks yeah? Job done on the jihadists. And it brings more to their cause.

Now if they want to put on a uniform and fight like men than yeah ok let’s give them there moment. I would have given and have given the axis of ww2 there moment they fought like men with honor well maybe not so much at the start (I’m looking in your direction Japan) still they as far as I know did not hide amongst children and the like in the hopes that we would bomb them and they could get it on the news to further them self’s.


that is my 2 cent's worth

EDIT TO ADD: In reference to ww2 news I mean the papers.
and to say that is not spelled thast

[edit on 2-10-2009 by ashnomadonte]

It's a terrible shame for anyone , whether our troops or theirs to fall in combat, we are ALL someones Brother, Father, Son, Mother, Sister or Daughter. It's a terrible shame that both sides are lied to and ordered to fight by those too cowardly to stand on the front lines.
It's a tragedy that they fall , one soldier falling in combat affects a lot of people even more than those next to them on the battlefield, they leave their families to grieve, whilst those who gave the orders do so with a despicable disregard for the suffering they have caused.
We should give ALL polticians and military leaders a gun , and ship them off to the front, and if we did that everytime they started making moves to war, you see how many wars are actually started? None I bet.

We should give ALL weapons manufacturers , all arms dealers and those who back the companies who make weapons or those that fund the war effort a gun , ship them to the front line and let them see what damage is done to a living human being, after all a cadaver used for 'research' does not make a sound, does not groan, or cry for a parent, call to their God, scream in agony.
A computer program does not feel any emotion either. It feels no anxiety as it pulls a trigger or fires a rocket into mass of human flesh who want nothing more than to be left alone, to live their lives as they see fit, to go home to their families at the end of the day.

The soldiers of ALL armies should say to their commanders and generals " NO MORE , we die for your beliefs and your pocket and yet we are treated like cattle, like we're not even Human". If there are no soldiers willing to fight to line someones pocket then there would be no war, maybe then we could learn what it means to a Human being.