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Did God create evil to ensure free will?

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posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


Hmm. But that's why I wanted you to quote the bible, so we could come to definitive conclusions instead of wandering in circles. Okay, if you don't want to quote scriptures, at least tell me why your conclusions are the only possible conclusions.

Thanks.




posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:31 PM
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a start question.

1. Is god allowed to hurt himself ? is that evil ? he does it in agreement with himself,
is that evil ?

I do not mean from a human perspective, but the question is about god's perspective.

Can god do evil ? Can truth be untrue ?

[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds


a start question.

1. IS god allowed to hurt himself ? is that evil ? he does it in agreement with himself,
is that evil ?



Excellent question and I was thinking about this last night. I did not bring it up because I see it as only one possibility, but not a definitive answer. Perhaps, if we are part of God, then we agreed to suffer before we came here and when we return we will understand. (Or even if we are not part of God, maybe we still agreed to it.) Is that what you are getting at?

As far as whether or not God can do evil, I think it's clear he can.

Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Can truth be untrue? Perhaps it can.

2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

[edit on 30-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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now you are close yes.

we didn't agree as humans, but god agreed.

is god outside time, or is god all the times ?

2nd question: can truth be untrue ?

can the absolute truth be untrue ?
what does absolute means ?
if it is subject to another truth, then that truth gets included in ? the absolute truth ?
so the absolute truth, where is it ? the highest truth ?
so that truth is not subject to anything, and as truth is one ?

[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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if you use quotes of the bible, remember hebrew (and aramaic and greek)
are as arabic and old... many wrong translations of both tenses
as meaning.

This is very important, all the holy books have languages that allow
you to pick better or worse interpreations.

is the bible says god can be evil, is it written for
a human perspective or a god perspective ?
also very important. From which perspective is a verse written.

Can god be evil to himself ? when he does it from his essence ?
from his oneness ?




[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds
now you are close yes.

we didn't agree as humans, but god agreed.


Now how do you know this? I'm not agreeing with you, because I see it as one of many possibilities. I wouldn't knowingly say something was true if I didn't know it to be.



is god outside time, or is god all the times ?


I don't know.



2nd question: can truth be untrue ?


See my previous post. I added it after I posted it. It seems like a possibility.



can the absolute truth be untrue ?
what does absolute means ?


If God is omnipotent it can mean whatever he wants it to mean. He would have all power and authority. We would have to ask this question from our perspective or God's, and then we would have to determine whether God was truly omnipotent.



if it is subject to another truth, then that truth gets included in ? the absolute truth ?
so the absolute truth, where is it ? the highest truth ?
so that truth is not subject to anything, and as truth is one ?

[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]


Can there be a highest truth? Could there be a truth that even God himself could not surpass?



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds
if you use quotes of the bible, remember hebrew (and aramaic and greek)
are as arabic and old... many wrong translations of both tenses
as meaning.
[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]


You guys were the ones who picked the bible to draw conclusions from, not me. I am just going along within the limitations you all set for me.



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 04:54 PM
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)

okay, another thing, patience,
you are not going to understand something that people fighted over for thousands of years in one hour....impossible


you say i can't proove that, you are right, i can't to you


I can say you i tell you the truth, BUT truth can only be seen through you,
that's why if you don't know what truth is i can tell you i tell the truth,
you are not going to believe me, that's why god can not be seen by most
people..people do not belief him yet


Look, i am asking you this questions to make you think about them, not
to accept it yet, you first have to see as much as possible, you have to build logic.

what is logic ? what is observation ?

logic = seeing what is not true, keeping truth (= repenting is a word for this)
you find god by seeing what he is not, you find truth by seeing untruths
observing= seeing
visions= believing observation without logic, the bible is a vision, it's something you can see, but you have to test it to logic.

logic is quite opposite of believing observation.
but you need observation to build logic

why do we have to test the bible against truth ?
(truth is always logic, because logic is another word for it)
we have to test our vision against truth, which is god.
religion does not always test their visions against logic/truth.
They ignore truth sometimes, to make the vision important,
when history showed us, millions of interpretations are possible,
only one of them can be truth.

Absolute truth is absolute truth ? that's not so difficult eh,
everyhting that exsist is the truth no ? yes it is,
truth is everything that is. (time is included in the IS)
we start from there.


[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 05:17 PM
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Question .

What are beliefs ?

can you in absolutes really know something ?
or is it all belief ?

Advise:
replace the word 'god' in the holy books,
with the word truth, every book claims god to be the truth,
so replace every word with 'truth'.

IF jesus is one with the father (glorification),
then replce his name by truth.

or is he not the truth ?



[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds
Question .

What are beliefs ?

can you in absolutes really know something ?
or is it all belief ?


I'd prefer to hear your answer.



IF jesus is one with the father (glorification),
then replce his name by truth.

or is he not the truth ?


Same.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:17 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 

How can I verify this so that I can know like you? My Strong's concordance says this:
This is a really cool web site I have been taking advantage of on a regular basis to help me understand the Hebrew in the old testament.
In this case, you would go to:
net.bible.org...
This breaks this verse down about as much as possible.
Go below the middle of the page and in bold letters, it says, Hebrew.
When you go over the word with your cursor, it pops up the definition.
Click on the Strong's number 01254 and you go to:
net.bible.org...
That gives you 26 different spellings for that number. This is where it has a serious advantage over a regular concordance. The book would be way too big if it had all this info, which is no problem on the internet.
The tenth word in the list is arwbw (transliteration, read right to left). it has a number 2 which means it is used two times. When you click on it, you find out that they are both in the same verse. You can test this out with some of the others, and it will give you every verse that uses that same exact spelling. That way, you can compare how it is used in different places. It is useful for when you have an obscure verse, you can see how it reads in other verses, where it is clearer what the intent was.
Lots of fun, and I use it all the time. Another little bonus is that when you get the list, and click on those verses to get the breakdown, sometimes you find words, that though they are spelled the same, they have different Strong's numbers. You can really wreck havoc with those, because how would the Greeks who translated the Old Testament, way back in the shrouds of history known which one to go with, other than guessing? I have found verses that half of the words in it are like that, where you can change every one to the other meaning, and have the results make more sense than it did before.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:30 AM
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another question:

does absolute truth when it is everything that IS, (exsists)
include all lies that are possible to be ?

(OR has it a way to remove those lies= paradox)

does one truth means untruths are possible outside it ?
would truth as absolute still exsist ?
or does untruths need to be integrated in the truth,
without touching this truth.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


IF i give you the answers you will FIX logic a lot less.
Truth is God, so the spirit talks to you by logic and heart, both sides
complement each other, and actually need to become one.
You feel and you know. (or at least try to get close to knowing,
until truth (god) takes over full)

i gave you some questions, try to understand those questions,
try to answer them, and let logic answer them further.
First you answer, then logic comes up, you see a possibility that is not true,
the questions start coming together, answers skip possibilities...and like that you build logic.

If everything is a beliefsystem, then you understand the word 'truth' better,
from a human perspective people always sought the smallest thing,
but we will never have more proof then 'we belief it, because of ... something we belief too'... that's being human. True or not, we believe it to be. I'm not saying beliefs are the deciding factor in what a human sees. God gave us a system of beliefs, most are similar to each other, and we start from there growing based on own choice.

beliefs is truly the basic to understand truth (God).
Honesty is the command in science and religion.
But something simple scares all what honor and
struggle brought forth.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:41 AM
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Here's something, while we are on evil, and discussing words in Hebrew.
Lets say in this same verse, Isaiah 45:7, you click on 07451 for evil, or in the transliteration, er. Once that page comes up ( net.bible.org... ), the eleventh spelling on the list is wyerh. When you click on that and go down, you find Zechariah 1:4 “Do not be like your ancestors, to whom the former prophets called out, saying, ‘The Lord who rules over all says, “Turn now from your evil wickedness,”’ but they would by no means obey me,” says the Lord.

When you check the other verses, wyerh has another number that has to do with herding flocks to pasture. So when the verse in Zechariah was talking about bad prophets leading the people, was it really saying "evil" or bad shepherding?
The first verse on the page for wyerh is Ezekiel 34:9 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord:
In this verse the Strong's number is 07462, to pasture, tend, graze, feed


[edit on 1-10-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:47 AM
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to know who talks from god, you first have to pick your god.
IS he one or divided ?
IS he god or baal ?

IF you choose the wrong god, the devil (lie) is a free gift with it.

In holy books you still can choose the god you prefer,
one of lies and revenge, or one of love and functional pain,
which is 'revenge' on lies, but in a better way.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:49 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Wow, that's some crazy stuff. Thanks for sharing. And here I thought my Strong's Concordance was being truthful. How is anybody supposed to know what's in the bible if they are not a Hebrew scholar?



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:55 AM
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That's why the bible is made to test against truth,
because words can't do it without truth.

Hebrew scholars differ in opinions. Aramaic the same thing.

That's the whole thing about religion.
You just can't know if you pick like in a casino,
there has to be a guiding in it, and that's logic (=truth)

hundreds of years of researching words, did not make the bible more simple,
it made it even more complicated. Which is not a bad thing,
because honesty allows you to see, there is a need to more
then just translating words.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds

another question:

does absolute truth when it is everything that IS, (exsists)
include all lies that are possible to be ?


Only on this earth plane. At God's level there is only truth.



(OR has it a way to remove those lies= paradox)


On earth truth and untruth cancel each other out. Untruths are integrated in a pit that is foresaken of god.



does one truth means untruths are possible outside it ?
would truth as absolute still exsist ?
or does untruths need to be integrated in the truth,
without touching this truth.


In heaven God is only truth (logic), but God integrated truth (logic) and lies in this world so they could cancel each other out. This way God would be one with untruth while still being apart from it. Untruth can not be outside truth (logic), ever. (Paradox of this life -- figuratively a tree, plant, system.)



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds
Question .

What are beliefs ?

can you in absolutes really know something ?
or is it all belief ?


Alright, now mind you I don't have the Holy Spirit guiding me like you do. I don't think you can know anything for certain. I think belief is an idea which you have weighed in your mind and given a degree of significance to. I don't think there's any guarantee your beliefs can be right though, although you believe they are.



Advise:
replace the word 'god' in the holy books,
with the word truth, every book claims god to be the truth,
so replace every word with 'truth'.

IF jesus is one with the father (glorification),
then replce his name by truth.

or is he not the truth ?
[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]


I can not answer this with any degree of certainty because I don't know which bibles are correct. As you have already told me,

"KJV is totally wrong in translations. Even anointed is mistranslated.
If you have wrong words about anointed ones, how can you be sure in scripture?"



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 02:11 AM
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yeah, you are right, that's what i tried to explain,
we only have beliefs.
So better to start from there, then to start from a thing
as an atom. What is our basic thing, a belief or a part of an electron?

now logic is something you can only see full as god himself.
only truth can know truth, only truth can see truth.

So what do we do then ?
trying to let that part in us that is connected with truth,
take over by logic. until it pulls us in. Truth always
has the last word (God).

We have a logic, that we build on what we saw,
what we see, is decided by truth


But you have to start and grow to somewhere,
so it's not a waste of time.



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