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Did God create evil to ensure free will?

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posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 10:55 PM
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Most people don't realize that God didn't create evil. God gave free will of choice to all being. Their for the only other choice other than what God wants is evil. Satan created the most powerful of evil. Trying to covet God himself. Satan created evil. Adam and Eve let sin enter the world. None of that was God's will. Man and Satan is whats cause evil in the world.




posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 10:55 PM
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Most people don't realize that God didn't create evil. God gave free will of choice to all being. Their for the only other choice other than what God wants is evil. Satan created the most powerful of evil. Trying to covet God himself. Satan created evil. Adam and Eve let sin enter the world. None of that was God's will. Man and Satan is whats cause evil in the world.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 02:45 AM
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I love these kinds of conversations because for all I know everyone could be talking about different Gods.

Okay, I'm going to talk about the Christian God for a second because I sense that's what a few of you are talking about.

First we have someone saying good cannot exist without evil because evil is the lack of good. This world is the proof of that.

Okay, well there is nothing wrong with your argument for some particular God. I don't know who. But if it's the Christian God, I don't think it would apply. Because there is supposed to be a place called heaven and everything is good there, but there is no evil. Am I right? God can't exist with evil. So it is possible for God to create a place where good exists but evil doesn't. Heaven is the proof. This world shouldn't be your proof because the Christian God created another reality, heaven, where the same rules don't apply. Alternate realities are possible with this God.

Secondly someone said God wouldn't want everyone to act the same way and so he gave them free will which necessitates the ability to do evil. Okay so this isn't an omnipotent God because he can't give free will without allowing evil. But that's beside the point. So when you get to heaven will everybody be acting the same way? There's no evil there so by that logic they should be, right? Why would God suddenly change his mind and want everyone to act the same way as angels in heaven? Goodbye old pal, hello robot?

Slymattb says God didn't create evil. Which God are you talking about friend? Because my KJV says differently. So can you provide some scriptural evidence that he doesn't?

Of course, if none of you are talking about the Christian God then my arguments don't apply.

I'd like to make a request for this thread. If someone says something that doesn't apply to all possible Gods, please state which God you are referring to.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 


I see where you're going, but my point, to phrase it in terms a little closer to yours, is that the existence of any substance at a given point in space and time precludes the existence of any different substance in that exact same location (setting aside for the moment any possibility of "moral fusion").

So for good not to necessarily result in evil, there must not be any distinction between the various substances would could be described as good, despite the obvious differences in how they are brought to be. This is not necessarily impossible and so within such a world view your point may very well stand.

However it seems as though the lack of qualitative distinction between various manifestations of good in such a frame work could make the balancing of the good of the individual versus the good of the whole (or of another individual) irrelevant and perhaps be used by irresponsible minds to justify selfishness.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Slymattb says God didn't create evil. Which God are you talking about friend? Because my KJV says differently. So can you provide some scriptural evidence that he doesn't?


God didn't creat evil. Satan was created perfect at the time that is what Your KJV says. Satan was creat perfect before he fell. Satan create evil by going against God and wanting worhship. And I am talking Christianity.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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KJV is totally wrong in translations,
even 'annointed' is mis translated,
if you have the wrong words about annointed ones,
how will you be sure in scripture ??

Evil does not exsist in god,
choice does, your choice as god
not to be god, not to see the rest of yourself,
not to see god in yourneighbour and your enemy,
not to forgive god, god is all.

Did you firgive God ?
Or is your god not all ?
Leviticus, and the gospels, Isaiah, and the prophets are wrong ?

What do you believe then ? your own religion ?
that takes the right to judge others ?

I know YOU are better then that,
just trying to help you understand your scripture.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by slymattb
 


Out of curiousity Slymattb, is God rendered innocent by knowingly allowing something evil to happen when he could have stopped it?

If I'm walking down the street and some punk is trying to push drugs on some kids, unless the punk is either a hell of a lot bigger than even me or already has a weapon in his hand, it's a fair bet that said punk is gonna be up against a wall before he even knows I've taken an interest in the situation.

I'd kinda like to think that if there's a God out there, he'd do the same for me if there was a higher being trying to push a destructive lifestyle on my foolish mortal butt.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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God has to shoot his own foot,
to avoid paralled universes and never ending patterns
where god (including you) has never ending pain.

This life is a present for you,
70 years (or less or more) instead you somewhere
in another universe in never ending pain.

take your pick.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
reply to post by slymattb
 


Out of curiousity Slymattb, is God rendered innocent by knowingly allowing something evil to happen when he could have stopped it?

If I'm walking down the street and some punk is trying to push drugs on some kids, unless the punk is either a hell of a lot bigger than even me or already has a weapon in his hand, it's a fair bet that said punk is gonna be up against a wall before he even knows I've taken an interest in the situation.

I'd kinda like to think that if there's a God out there, he'd do the same for me if there was a higher being trying to push a destructive lifestyle on my foolish mortal butt.


While I am not Slymattb I hope he does not mind me replying, not in his place but to just reply.

*IF* we are speaking of the God within Scripture (my use of the word Scripture encompasses what others call the Bible) then God cannot be rendered to be "innocent" for that would mean He needs or needed to be proven as such yet who is just enough to bring such a charge?

Many people claim that God is unjust and impotent because He, if being all powerful, cannot even do away with evil. This argument comes from many atheists/evolutionists who are still seeking the "missing link" and when criticized for it they rightly reply with, "We have not found it yet, not all discoveries have been found".

Believers have the same reply to those who question God and His seeming inability to remove evil. Because God has not yet dealt with it does not mean that He will not at some point.

Also since people are not Holy and Righteous they would then be all done away with if God were to remove all evil.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 


I see where you're going, but my point, to phrase it in terms a little closer to yours, is that the existence of any substance at a given point in space and time precludes the existence of any different substance in that exact same location (setting aside for the moment any possibility of "moral fusion").

So for good not to necessarily result in evil, there must not be any distinction between the various substances would could be described as good, despite the obvious differences in how they are brought to be. This is not necessarily impossible and so within such a world view your point may very well stand.

However it seems as though the lack of qualitative distinction between various manifestations of good in such a frame work could make the balancing of the good of the individual versus the good of the whole (or of another individual) irrelevant and perhaps be used by irresponsible minds to justify selfishness.


My apologies for missing your reply and thank you for it.

It is refreshing to deal with someone who responds in thought out manner.

In a Scriptural world view man is not really "good" because he is, as you pointed out, selfish.

Let's look quickly at Mother Theresa. We see her as a woman who gave up so many things to help the poor and mistreated. We would call her a great example of one who is unselfish. Yet if we think deeply upon it perhaps she did what she did out of a selfish need to be unselfish? Others reading that please give it thought before your emotions reply too quickly.

Many may claim that Oprah is "good" because she does so many "good" things. This is true, she is a very giving person with her own money. Yet in a Scriptural world view this does not make her any more special in Gods eyes. She is just a sinner in need of salvation as any other person but many may claim that if anyone should be in heaven it should be Oprah because she does so much "good". This "goodness" though is a standard of men, not of God who is Holy and Righteous.

If we allow "good" to be relative to each individual then Hitler cannot be condemned for his actions for what he did he believed to be "good" and what right do we have to say otherwise?

So there must be a "good" that all other "good" is to be judged upon, would you not agree?

Thank you



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 


The problem I'll run into if I try to reason within those bounds is that I'll be measuring something that has no physical attributes (intentions) with an arbitrary assumption that selfish intentions are evil regardless of effect, based on an arbitrary assumption that God is good and everything that is not God is not good. The reasoning is somewhat circular. It works fine for a person of faith and I have no problem with it; I'm just not able to do much with it myself since I lost my faith in rather spectacular fashion some time ago.

Thus far I've been focusing on good basically as an accounting of tangible effect against a utilitarian standard, even when dealing with the nature of God in my first post (which suggested that the notion of God as infallibly good would rely on the fact that omniscience and omnipotence allows him to fairly hold the balance between the desires of the individual and the desires of the whole).

This is not a purely relativist framework, because one side of the equasion is universal (you can put an individual like Hitler on one side of that scale and he remains checked by the whole), although since the composition of the whole is changing, it is dynamic- what is good can change.

It is precisely this framework that I am using which is implicit in the common assumption that everyday people like you and I (or even exceptional people like Mother Theresa) are not as evil as Hitler, because we, like Hitler, do put our agenda ahead of how things work out in the big picture all of the time, and even our benevolence does appear to arise within our own agenda without a full accounting of the universal effects (If Mother Theresa could have fed all the worlds hungry, she probably would have done so without considering what that might do to the price of grain and the income of farmers), but we don't cause the kind of immediate and largescale damage that Hitler did when he made the same fundamental kind of decision.

The idea that we are not distinct from Hitler for even so much as having motives at all almost morally necessitates that we all be immediately lobotomized, effectively undoing what God has done (giving us individuality).



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by Nosred
 
Free will, as in what? The choice to do something wrong?
The acting out on suggestions somehow rooted in the mind of Satan enslaved them to him and ruined their ability to exercise free will.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by slymattb

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Slymattb says God didn't create evil. Which God are you talking about friend? Because my KJV says differently. So can you provide some scriptural evidence that he doesn't?


God didn't creat evil. Satan was created perfect at the time that is what Your KJV says. Satan was creat perfect before he fell. Satan create evil by going against God and wanting worhship. And I am talking Christianity.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds

KJV is totally wrong in translations,
even 'annointed' is mis translated,
if you have the wrong words about annointed ones,
how will you be sure in scripture ??

Evil does not exsist in god,
choice does, your choice as god
not to be god, not to see the rest of yourself,
not to see god in yourneighbour and your enemy,
not to forgive god, god is all.

Did you firgive God ?
Or is your god not all ?
Leviticus, and the gospels, Isaiah, and the prophets are wrong ?

What do you believe then ? your own religion ?
that takes the right to judge others ?

I know YOU are better then that,
just trying to help you understand your scripture.




Okay so KJV is totally wrong in its translations, that's your argument. So I guess you know what book has the correct translations then? Please tell me what book has the correct translations and how I can be certain it has the right translations.

Let's just assume for a moment that you are right and where the LORD says he
"creates evil" that it is really misinterpreted. Then if "create" is wrongly translated, then it could be wrongly translated in this verse too:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God "created" the heaven and the earth.

You see, the same Hebrew word was used for both verses according to Strong's concordance. If the word "evil" was wrongly translated then it could be wrongly translated in this verse:

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

So could that be mistranslated too? Why or why not? If it's not mistranslated, then tell me how one can definitively know that one is accurately translated and the other is inaccurately translated. In essence, since you asked what I believe, how do you know what you believe is correct?

I don't understand the rest of your post or what it has to do with the topic at hand. Was it directed at me?

Even if you disagree with me, surely you must believe that God at least "uses" evil to fulfill his purposes? Here are some examples. Tell me if they are mistranslated:'

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 06:10 AM
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reply to post by soul of integrity
 


you focus a lot on fear.
God does not want you to have fear for him, true
BUT
fear = insecurity = before heaven, promised land
it is actually your motor to reach the land.

it's not a bad thing.
every insecurity is attached to a certain fear,
if you do not have insecurities then you
are in the promised land or you think you are (that's ignorance),
because then you would be in FULL peace and freedom
and freedom to not receive freedoms




[edit on 26-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


you answered your question, with the isaiah quote in the mail before you replied to me.

The bibles message is true, but the interpretations are not, and those interpretations gave wrong translations which gave wrong interpretation.

But what is the bible ?

idolatry is putting the bible, visions and symbols above god,
god works though you, his spirit makes you understand words.
Living words = logic building = truth = god.
The bible is like a puzzle. a difficult one.
Most use contradicting interpretations to justify their judgements.

God created evil, because in you he can choose against himself,
he judges himself, because in you he can judge himself.
evil is another word for choice to ignore.
but god is one, what is in god is never evil.
even when evil is the other side of the coin.

if god is one side of the coin,
then your choices are the other side.
By ignorance, you can not forgive god, and
you avoid interest in yourself. You choose against
yourself, that is evil. Because it is God killing himself.
But still that evil is a choice, and god honors his own choices,
result: no evil, but choice.

it's all a game of words, the bible is made so difficult,
to remember people not to judge in ignorance with it,
it is made so people can read their beliefs in it,
a judging god or a loving god.
But the truth of god is that he loves himself.
God is one. (leviticus, love god = love all,
by judging and releasing judgement = repenting/forgiving=
seeing, understanding) old words for the same thing.

Those stories long ago, were to build abstract thinking.
The bible teaches first what absolutes are,
before it can teaches what relatives are.
First what literal is, before it can teach abstract.
A demon is a lie.
Truth is build as a step-up.
So fro your point of view a belief can be talking for one,
or against one, what talks against one is a demon,
what talks for a god that is one is an angel (messenger)



[edit on 26-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


Okay, since you agree God creates evil as the OP apparently did, and you have a theory on why he created it, can you answer the OP's question? The Holy Spirit should lead you to the correct answer I suppose. Did God create evil to ensure free will? And maybe you could answer mine too since it's related. Could God have created free will without creating evil? My answer was that we have insufficient information to conclude but the Holy Spirit doesn't answer questions for me that I'm aware of. The most I can manage is multiple possibilities based on reasoning and experiential inspiration (not divine as far as I'm aware.) If the Holy Spirit worked through me I surely wouldn't know it.

[edit on 26-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 09:15 AM
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God has the choice to leave himself,
but what is free will never leave freedom.
So his choice is always similar to the conditions,
so it erases the conditions.

In this world, he allows truth to be one,
including the lies, excluding them would break his oneness, his all-ness.
Lucifer= logic = freedom= logic that kills logic = falls from the heavens.
paradox.

He allows himself to choose against,
his choice can go against his freedom, breaking their bound.

This world allows the lies to be believed,
so it releases itself from the lies. at god's level there is only truth.
And god can be one, everything,
without lies. One is always including, how can truth be including,
when lies are outside it ? by integrating them in this world,
so they cancel each other out.

He breakes his feet to avoid never ending pain.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds

God has the choice to leave himself,
but what is free will never leave freedom.


What would happen if God left himself? Are you sure he didn't leave himself? I'm curious, since this is your theory, what you think the result would be.



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
reply to post by slymattb
 


Out of curiousity Slymattb, is God rendered innocent by knowingly allowing something evil to happen when he could have stopped it?

If I'm walking down the street and some punk is trying to push drugs on some kids, unless the punk is either a hell of a lot bigger than even me or already has a weapon in his hand, it's a fair bet that said punk is gonna be up against a wall before he even knows I've taken an interest in the situation.

I'd kinda like to think that if there's a God out there, he'd do the same for me if there was a higher being trying to push a destructive lifestyle on my foolish mortal butt.



Its called Judgment day buddy. God will deal with the situation of evil. The problem with doing it right now, is that means stopping those to exist that could be good. And it also means stopping those that have done wrong to be forgiven. What if the punk went to jail and the judge kill him right away, not knowing that if he continue he would become a doctor. Or even president himself. God knows in time all great things will come to pass. And God will have his vengeance on those that have done great evil. And God will judge the aliment evil one Satan himself. Life after death is big gamble people and it should not be taken lightly.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by slymattb]



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