Did God create evil to ensure free will?

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Even if God didn't create evil, which I could or could be wrong. For God to give free will of choice to his children there evil the opposite to good. The fact is all evil will be destroy forever.

I see what you're saying but it misses the point. If a perfect, all-powerful God is the root of every single thing that exists, then fixing it isn't good enough.

You don't let some guy give your child crack and then punish the guy who did it and try to put the kid in rehab. You strike that pusher dead before he even knows why you're doing it.

You don't build your kid a tree house that's got loose nails all over the place, then fix it after the kid gets hurt, and if you do that (hopefully by mistake) then you can't say you did perfect just because the scar healed and you eventually fixed the problem. You take the time and attention to detail to build a safe tree house for your kid the first time.

Fixing it isn't perfect. Not making mistakes is perfect. And this world is clearly over-run with horrible mistakes of the gravest consequence. God's children are starving to death, and being molested, and being allowed to use drugs, and shooting eachother in the face. Somebody should call Child Protective Services.

Originally posted by slymattb

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Even if God didn't create evil, which I could or could be wrong. For God to give free will of choice to his children there evil the opposite to good. The fact is all evil will be destroy forever.

I don't know if he did either. I only posted that because others were certain he didn't. I wanted to know how they could be certain of that, when KJV says he did. i.e. What do they know that I don't?

As for God requiring evil in order to grant free will, that would mean God couldn't give free will without evil. If that is the case God is not truly omnipotent because there are things he can not do. However, this is just a logical argument. If God were truly omnipotent he could do things that are not logical in which case all arguments are pretty much moot anyway. Any argument could be true because logic no longer applies.

In fact, the bible does give the impression that God does things that are illogical (and by extension the followers.)

2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
2Co 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
2Co 6:11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

reply to post by theyreadmymind


Originally posted by pasttheclouds

God has the choice to leave himself,
but what is free will never leave freedom.

your reply:

What would happen if God left himself? Are you sure he didn't leave himself? I'm curious, since this is your theory, what you think the result would be.

----------

my new reply:

God can not leave himself, because he who is free, will never leave freedom,
still god is allowed to leave himself, by human choice. But when they leave god,
they are not god, because god is one, to be free as one you first have to take the cross of being one. God can leave god, but it is not god anymore, because god chooses oneness, it has freedom. This life is his cross to be that freedom.

To be truth you have to have the untruth in you,
if you do not want this,
you CHOOSE against being the truth as one, and you are divided
against yourself. untruth can not be outside truth, never.

that's the paradox of this life.
that's why we fall in love with imperfect.

reply to post by pasttheclouds


The reason I asked what would happen is because Jesus asked: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Assuming one believes Jesus IS God, we would have a possible scenario where God leaves himself. I was hoping we'd learn something new.

forsaken: From G1722 and G2641; to leave behind in some place, that is, (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad one) to desert: - forsake, leave.

But if he would never do it, then we have a possible scenario where Jesus didn't know he wouldn't do it. Assuming of course he wasn't just fulfilling prophecy, or if he meant to "let remain over" as in the above definition.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]

glorification means becoming one, that was what elijah and moses symbolised at that meeting, the law and the prophet as one.

after one you step in a role, like a movie, jesus took his literal cross to explain the mental cross we all carry. he stayed as human instead of going towards the heavens.
he was fully human in his choice to stay.

why couldn't god 'lie'/'hide' to himself ? he can, what do you think he does in heaven, being peace ? he is playing theatre all the time.

truth doesn't lie, but truth can play.

god doesn't expect humans to believe jesus exsisted when they can not see it(honesty is the command that is important), he wants people to work towards oneness...to care, to be honest, to be lost first.


[edit on 28-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds


You use "can not" a lot. As in, "God can not leave himself, because he who is free, will never leave freedom..." and "untruth can not be outside truth, never."

So I'm guessing you believe God not to be all-powerful in that there are simply things he can not do or make happen? So maybe you are leaning towards evil as a necessity because it couldn't be prevented?

that's the whole thing about god,
he is free, without having to
but his choice is in accordance with
the demands, he can choose against his demands,
when he doesn't see the gain of this world...

it' s not that far etched, god is free, what is free is one,
what is one can not exclude, still excludes.
Logic at its highest level is absolute, one and free,
or it is slave to a higher truth. Where it is one,
it can not be divided, untruth can not exsist.
So untruths are integrated in a pit, in a rememberance
that is forgotten where god is. Untruths cancel
each other out in a plant-structure, a pyramid structure,
this life. 1 can not exclude, still it excludes in itself.

remember this is a paradox i try to explain,
it is a word-game, very difficult to explain
something 'simple' as a paradox.

that's is exactly the reason why the bible is so misunderstood.
because it explains the paradox.
same for quran.
the laws that look so evil are symbology,
the real law is simple, love god = all = growth towards
it means evolution

but evolution was needed to grow the plant, the paradox,
that's why there was always space for curse, not only blessing.
Insanity can always repent, ignorance can not. Choise
is not made by seeing in the future, but by seeing in the now,
honesty makes a next step, ignorance is rest, as opposite.

It grew a system where believes were to be believed,
lies were believed to be true.

It allows god to go agaist his freedom.


[edit on 28-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

remember this is a paradox i try to explain,
it is a word-game, very difficult to explain
something 'simple' as a paradox.

I agree it sounds like a word-game. Very subtil/crafty like something the serpent in the garden of eden might have come up with. But if it was a word game, surely there must be some logical answer if we just clarify the terminology. Like in the quote I gave you above, 'sorrowful but always rejoicing' sorrowful may mean you are sad about all the evil in the world, but you rejoice knowing there will be justice. Or it could mean that as a whole some are sorrowful and some are rejoicing, but they are all part of one. If we stop playing word games and try to get to the heart of it all, there's probably a logical answer. But because of all the word games you can't see the forest for the trees. Which is why I believe you can't "know" the truth, unless you have a map through the trees. So you claim to have a map, the Holy Spirit, as your guide but it seems the Holy Spirit just likes to play, as you have said, "the truth can play." If that is the case, how do you know it's a holy spirit and not a mischievous spirit? Have you tested it?

that's is exactly the reason why the bible is so misunderstood.
because it explains the paradox.
same for quran.
the laws that look so evil are symbology,
the real law is simple, love god = all = growth towards
it means evolution

but evolution was needed to grow the plant, the paradox,
that's why there was always space for curse, not only blessing.

Now it seems like we might have come to the heart of the matter here, but I suspect we are in the middle of another word game. So it sounds to me like 'evolution' (whether you mean it literally or figuratively I know not) was required to grow the plant (once again, literally or figuratively) creating opportunity for curse. Now it sounds like this curse of evil was a necessity in order to grow the plant, but I suppose it is just another word game and I am still going to miss the forest again because the trees are in the way.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]

i really appreciate how you are discussing,
just wanna tell you that. The serpent is the symbol of going lost,
but it needs a god to be allowed. And it needs to be a part of
god, or god is not truth and one. But God needs to be good,
truth can not be bad.So that's our paradox.
How do you explain that simple ? when everybody is
still stuck in thousands of stories (=symbology) of life ?

paradox = plant = tree = not literal as a plant,
but more as a 'system'

nobody can beat the wordgame without the need,
the need grows together with the cross you take.

that's the difficult thing about the paradox,
it is not understandable without cross.

every word will always have different ways to take it,
understanding comes from yourself, how far you want
logic in your head to be fixed, this is testing in a good way, prooving, to answer
you question.
Religion do not like to 'test' god, afraid to do something wrong, but asking for proof is not testing god, if you ask proof he can build it in you, if you don't ask questions, then one day you'll have to do the lottery, you just guess. That's why 'delusion' is written in the bible. It goes against honesty, which is a command both in religion as science,
in honesty we all have visions of what we believe, but our minds always will doubt it, that's just plain honesty (god gave me a vision so big once, and i said to him, i don't want to believe you when you are vision, i need logic, and i need love, righteousness, not an evil god, but a logic and good god, if god is truth, as religion states, then be sure, truth can be explained in a way, that is honesty)

another point, if truth is one and absolute it is good for it self,
so my question for god to be good, is not so subjective as
it looks like. God can not be bad, when he is truth, his goodness
is just hidden behind a veil for us, truth can't be wrong, that's logic)

yes, for the paradox to be full, insanity was needed,
curse and blessing. insanity is not evil. Evil is ignorance.
Hitlers insanity was 'wrong', but it was ignorance
that allowed it to happen. We allow monsters to
take more then they could do, if we woulnd't ignore,
and we are all part of ignorance, but we can lessen it
every day. and monster are so deep in pain,
they do not have the speace to beat their own
insanity. They need help, always. But society was
not made to understand that either in that time.
(forgiving also needs time, i don't belief in forgiveness
that is faster then it's possibility, never fake forgiveness,
trying is more important, if you give forgiveness time, it
will be more complete, fake forgiveness is also ignorance
for a part)

salvation is evolution yes, it is reflection = repenting,
understanding = forgiving.

reflection works clockwise, like a clock, something point
to 6 AM, another to 10 seconds, and another to 50 minutes,
you have both negatives and positives ont he same time.
it means nobody can really see the heart of someone,
and a person can do his best so hard he can't handle it,
and insanity comes out for a while.
IF a persons does his best, treat him in respect,
because doing your best deserves to be seen.
IF he becomes insane, at least see it, seeing is the most important,
not being able to help is natural, seeing is what they need,
worse is avoided by allowing a lesser harmless evil, before there
are bad deeds, allow the bad words, so the anger can come out
before they ever think doing bad deeds, this is so easy,
righteoussness is not that difficult, it's thinking in
relatives instead of absolutes, absolute is where god is,
humans are not there yet, religion thinks to much in absolutes,
they are stuck in it, in their logic, and will be, until they
give honesty it's true place in their mental war,
(i generalise, in my head i see only individuals,
difficult to explain without generalising, a human can NOT
proove jesus exsisted, but he can build logic, and find
him back there)

Ingorance is false peace in a world that is made as 'hell'
But even in hell we can find heaven.
But trying is more important then being right,
because until full salvation there are only sorries,
reflecting for everyone in every situation, even if you
are the victim. When you are a victim in severe situations,
life will save you (probably) automaticly, because your reflection will
never allow you false peace anymore, your reflection will
never stop. (i am still generalising, it's impossible to explain without generalising)

Yes, this world can be evil, but justice comes one day.
In the end, this world allows god not to be never ending patterns
and parallell universes of pain. In parallel universes or every potential is real universes there is always somewhere 'you' in never ending pain.

you see, if i have to explain something simple, i need so many
words because i realise the questions that will come,
everyone can only do it for himself, understanding life
comes to you, when you are ready for it.

Problem with explaining, is that people will always
focus on side-details...it makes the structure loose
importance... many people see one wrong and throw away
everything, you can't explain life starting from details,
you can only explain starting from the center,
what is truth, what is logic.

Same with the bible, they start from the different verses,
instead of starting with the important thing, who is god,
the same question as what is truth. So you can read the
verses from his perspective.
After a history of religious wars, is it so diffiuclt to admit,
our books seem to contradict ? The same as logic ?
paradox is something that contradicts, start with the
beginning. What is truth, what are beliefs, who is god.
Is truth wrong to itself ? Why needs a free truth pain ?
like that, in simple thinking you find god.




[edit on 29-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds


Thanks, I appreciate it too. Believe it or not, this is one debate I don't want to win. I'd like to arrive at the truth, not remain in a state of ignorance.

Symbolism is fun. It can lead you to new and exciting possibilities making you see things that possibly have never been seen before. I find it to be an ultimate inspirational tool. It definitely has its place in religion. The cons: There's no guarantee you come to the correct conclusions. You might see symbolism in things that were not intended to be symbolic. (Then again, you might. There's no guarantee.) There is a lot of room for personal bias. It's too difficult to convey your thoughts to others who don't recognize the symbolism, or may see different or contradicting symbolism than you do. When you build symbols from other symbols, it's even more difficult for you to recall a chain of symbolic representations to present them in a coherent manner for your intended audience, and even more possibility that you are wrong. You can't go from symbolism back to real world. You're stuck in symbol-land. It's almost like that old adage, "You can't get there from here." The best that you could do is to use symbolism to contrive some possibilities, then test those possibilities against other text deemed to be reliable (another subjective process) then do empirical research to support or reject your hypothesis.

Once you start recognizing symbols, and building new symbols off of old symbols, if you really begin to consider the truth of them, if you try to apply them to the real world you can find yourself descending into another world altogether. Think schizophrenia: nobody can understand what you are talking about. Nobody knows what you are seeing. You sound delusional. You're lost in your own world without hope of sharing your experiences with others because they can't understand your language. You can believe televisions and radios are talking to you. I know, I've been there and what they tell you doesn't come true unless you start building more symbolism to make up for the deficiencies. It only leads you to questioning your ability to understand this symbolic language. You start to wonder if you only knew a few more symbols if the message would make more sense. You are constantly doubting yourself. "I'm an imperfect person, so where could I have gone wrong?" When in fact, there might not be a message there at all. You're probably just playing with your subconscious and trying to make sense of abstract ideas.

Now why would God do something like that? Who put all this symbolism into the bible? It's a path to madness. Is it a curse or a gift? Or both?

One thing you have to be careful with when debating a topic such as this one, is the lesson learned from Job. Christians who love God tend to look for excuses to defend God. They are not so much interested in truth as they are edifying God and making him look as loving and as just as possible. But God rebuked Job's friends when they did this. Job 1:1 says that Job was perfect and upright. I know many Christians who will say Job was not perfect, and this was a translational error. Only Jesus was perfect, they say. But a careful reading of Job will show this to not be the case. Job's friends tried to say that God wouldn't bring evil on Job unless he was being punished for his sins. As we all know, this is not the case. You might say God didn't do it, Satan did it. But God admitted he was to blame in bringing this evil on Job. Job 42:11: "and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" and

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The Christians will say that Job talked back to God and with that he sinned because they are trying to maintain their idea that Jesus is the only perfect man. But over and over it says, Job did not sin with his lips. And Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Additionally, Job 12:10 says "In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." Which implies that God could protect us from evil if he was so inclined.

In the end, after all of Job's arguing with God and his friends, and proclaiming his innocence, and wishing for a lawyer to speak on his behalf to God, because his friends were accusing him of all manners of wrongdoing, and God continually punished him for no reason, finally God says:

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

So we certainly have to consider the possibility that evil was a creation of God's wrath. Possibly for reasons unknown. Surely without the bible outright telling us, it would be a matter of speculation at best.

why he would do that ? to build something, a tree ends in a top,
believes had to be believed to cancel each other out. In the end
there is no lie left. and time will transform into a literal paradise.

what you are doing is sharing your thoughts, those thoughts carry a certain pain,
a pain that cares for the world, you need to go through it all, to build logic,
that's repenting, it will cancel all what is not true, logic is like that,
it cancels all what is not true, until it is free.

Job didn't get the answers yet, but the answers are here now in this world,
pain is the cross everyone carries for care. Truth to be laid in the open
can not be accepted by most, because the hearts are not always ready yet.
Anyway, it will be laid in the open, and it willbe attacked.
People still believe that a peacefull person, in rest all the time, is one
from god, and the one in pain did something wrong. It is not like that.
Ignorance is false peace, pain is a cross you take by honesty, you create more pain how more honest you are. But truth is honest, and because of the pain it
allows people to make U-turns, to be lost and find the way back,
and all that for care, care for self and care for others, they are both
coming together in god. God is both I and WE, he is life.
Every human that speaks care, will be in a certain amount be wrong in this life, but the cross makes them workers for love. Rest is tomorrow.
In a world where life (god) is hurting so many people, nobody
can be ingorant about it, and even when you share all the luck in the world,
your care will make you feel like a fighter against life (god),
you will fight against god (like jacob) and in the end you will win,
because it is god/life who wins. Care always makes mistakes,
but it is better then ignorance.

...time will heal all who need it.



[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by theyreadmymind

Let's just assume for a moment that you are right and where the LORD says he "creates evil" that it is really misinterpreted.

Isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.

The word in this verse for create is שבשרא
It only appears in the Bible, in this particular form, in this one verse. The verb is modified into a noun, that God uses to describe Himself, as The One Who Creates. (with all that included into the one word)


[edit on 30-9-2009 by jmdewey60]

I could listen to people banter these kinds of topics around all day. I love reading these thoughts and beliefs of others.

The Window of Opportunity, by Hidden Hands, discusses this at length. It's somewhere in the Grey area.

So, did God create evil to insure free will and give us opportunity to choose; or did he give us free- will knowing this would inevitably lead to evil?

Its a chicken or egg question.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by theyreadmymind

 

Let's just assume for a moment that you are right and where the LORD says he "creates evil" that it is really misinterpreted.

Isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.

The word in this verse for create is שבשרא
It only appears in the Bible, in this particular form, in this one verse. The verb is modified into a noun, that God uses to describe Himself, as The One Who Creates. (with all that included into the one word)


[edit on 30-9-2009 by jmdewey60]

How can I verify this so that I can know like you? My Strong's concordance says this:

H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

That word is used many times.

it's quite impossible to understand god (life) ,
if you dont change perspective.
Don't think why you have free choice,
think why god needs it.
Why god needs something,when he doesn't need.
In god there is no evil eh, (you have choice) remember that.
it means you have a human perspective and a god perspective

2 side of a coin.
you have black and white, but in god everything is white.
a human can grow towards that by making the black white,
in other words growth and understanding : forgiving.



[edit on 30-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds


The first of the two what is the answer?

Who's perspective should I change to and how can I know they have the right perspective?

Why am I not allowed to wonder why I have free choice (if I even do), and why should I assume God needs anything?

Why do you say everything in God is white when at one point he is black?

Jeremiah 8:21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

I would like biblical answers please. I don't like people telling me I have the wrong perspective. The only perspective I have is taking the bible at it's word. If I cannot take the bible at it's word then how do I know if it's right?

reply to post by theyreadmymind


I didn't mean it that harsh
my english is not native

reply to post by pasttheclouds


That's okay, you're still my friend.

you have to build logic,
and then put the bible next to it,
the bible will ask you questions, give you ideas,
but truth is in your mind as logic build.

Jesus told us to build truth.

Sorry, i don't like to quote to many bibletexts,
that is a lost war, bibleverses-wars are never
ending because they forget to see the beginning,
who is god. what is logic. what is a belief. what is truth.