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Did God create evil to ensure free will?

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posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 02:58 AM
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Well, I'm sorry to have to say this, but that sounds like ignorance to me, false peace. By your own words -- evil. Sometimes you have to break things down before you can get something better. As Jesus said, destroy this temple and in three days I will rebuild it.

You said you were talking by the Holy Spirit, when in all reality you were just building a hedge around God. You said honesty is most important, but you told me things you didn't know to be true. I was putting trust in you (belief) and building a working engine here based on all you've told me to see how this "evil" works. And I think I found it.




posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 03:05 AM
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Okay,
don't put words in my mouth

i never said of myself 'i talk from the spirit'
i did explain what the spirit is for me
i did explain what truth is.
I dont expect someone else to follow me without
building his own truth as i told several times.
You are your own prophet


So you want to tell me where my wrongs are in what i explained ?
and :
"""You said honesty is most important, but you told me things you didn't know to be true"
which things ?

open for a reaction ?


[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 03:58 AM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


I went on to use the bible to make my points. Then you corrected me.



But what is the bible ?

idolatry is putting the bible, visions and symbols above god,
god works though you, his spirit makes you understand words.


Then I asked you if you tested the Holy Spirit. You didn't deny it. You said you tested God. I went on to say I don't have the Holy Spirit guiding me like you do. You didn't deny one was.

Then you told me the bible has to be tested against logic.


Visions = believing observation without logic, the bible is a vision, you can see it but you have to test it to logic.


At this point, since I have no Holy Spirit guiding me and you do, I had no choice but to defer to you to tell me what this logic was for me to test the bible against.

Then you went on to explain to me in detail what that logic is at length.

Now I'm coming from a humble and inferior place, not having the Holy Spirit. I'm putting my trust in you and relying on your Holy Spirit to tell me what that logic is that I must use to test the bible against.

Then on the last page you tell me that you know you are talking by the Holy Spirit if you are building up God? Well how did you know I was not going to build up God once I found out where this evil was coming from?

Now mind you, I'm not saying you're evil. Only by your own words (Ignorance=evil). But I see this method you are using as ignorant, where you can't juggle pieces because it might not build up God in the short run. In the long run it might make him look better.

Now how do I know you told me things you didn't know to be true? Quite honestly, I don't. But if your Holy Spirit is not divine revelation but simply the process of making God look as good as possible, then that is a method that can't be grounded in truth. Your symbolism may or may not be true. You have no way to know unless you have a literal divine revelation and you know it to be as such. Or in some cases, if the scriptural texts point it out as such.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 04:11 AM
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well, god showed me his face once, his eyes in the sky,
as a vision, after i begged him to show me the truth...
he looked at me, the most beautifull thing i ever saw,
and big, the whole sky changed.

was that proof for me ???? NO.
I was scared to death, scared to death, but i told my god,
i can't accept visions as truth, when truth is more the going
to a casino and picking what saves only my soul and not the world.
Do i say this to impress you ? Maybe i say it to remind myself
that i am happy, with falling and growing as a human at least i try
to see a mercy bigger then my own salvation.
Is that arrogance ? Was Jonah always right ?
Do i get angry ? be sure of it, i get angry when people
see god as a revengefull god. And i did my best to understand them, to justify them,
because they are also a part of truth, of god. Humans fail.

God works though logic by you. not by visions.
visions help to ask the questions.

'i didn't deny it' you said, not denying is not the same as approval,
i am sorry, but that's not honnest


Ofcourse i think i talk from the spirit, even if i always keep space for doubt
and regret, and the honesty is, every human acts from his own justification,
so everyone thinks to think from the spirit for a part or he wouldn't be justified in what he does. That's how you learn to forgive, by seeing that everybody tries to do the best for himself, for some the self includes the others, for some it is only theirselves,
but they all try to justify themselves by the truth in which they believe, which is the same as believing you talk from the spririt (of truth).

Look, im anot here to convince you,
i am here to explain my truths
so you can reject, or grow by it.

until full salvation there is a human person,
and that human person talks as a human, don't forget that.
the absolute is where god is, i am still speaking from my human mind of growth today.

people always like to throw away everything when they think to find a fault,
instead of keeping what they can use. People react to easy.

Building up god is not trying to crucify, crush him,
it's trying to understand him, even when it's not clear. it will never be fully clear as a human, never, words are not capable to do it for you. you decide the value you give to words and sentences. that's why interpretation is a colour you choose by your growth and believes.

Everything that happens in a persons life is in a certain way visions,
symbolic, and hating those visions will never help someone,
trying to understand it by logic is the way out of a world
contained in a symbolism prison.


[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds
well, god showed me his face once, his eyes in the sky,
as a vision, after i begged him to show me the truth...
he looked at me, the most beautifull thing i ever saw,
and big, the whole sky changed.

was that proof for me ???? NO.
I was scared to death, scared to death, but i told my god,
i can't accept visions as truth, when truth is more the going
to a casino and picking what saves only my soul and not the world.


I can understand this. I too have seen things which is why I keep an open mind.



God works though logic by you. not by visions.
visions help to ask the questions.

'i didn't deny it' you said, not denying is not the same as approval,
i am sorry, but that's not honnest



It could also be seen as a half-truth. I thought I was clear I did not or did not know if I had a Holy Spirit. You should have known you were creating a pecking order by allowing me to believe this. In any event, I will take the responsibility for allowing myself to believe it without asking you point blank if everything you were telling me was coming from the Holy Spirit. I didn't because I didn't want to seem confrontational.



Ofcourse i think i talk from the spirit, even if i always keep space for doubt
and regret, and the honesty is, every human acts from his own justification,
so everyone thinks to think from the spirit for a part or he wouldn't be justified in what he does.


Okay then, but if you only think something you should let someone know you're thinking it, not let on like it's absolute. You were telling me these things as though they were absolute truths. I can't use the bible because you need a spirit to guide you to understand the words. That's what you said in a roundabout way. But you can continue to tell me all manner of truths without any reference at all.



KJV is totally wrong in translations. Even anointed is mistranslated.
If you have wrong words about anointed ones, how can you be sure in scripture?


Now while this is probably correct, you've disallowed me from using any scripture. You instructed me one needs the spirit to make them understand words, which I didn't believe or know I have. In effect rendering me useless unless I used your logic.

A 'perhaps' or 'maybe' or 'possibly' when telling people what you think goes a long way in a collaborative project.



Look, im anot here to convince you,
i am here to explain my truths
so you can reject, or grow by it.

until full salvation there is a human person,
and that human person talks as a human, don't forget that.
the absolute is where god is, i am still speaking from my human mind of growth today.

people always like to throw away everything when they think to find a fault,
instead of keeping what they can use. People react to easy.


I never said or intended to throw away all that you shared. I've been building a little model of it. I also never intended to disbelieve you. What I would like to do is to come to absolutes and verify the things you've said. If we can't come to absolutes, then they are possibilities. Unfortunately, you've created a scenario where I am testing the scriptures against what you say instead of the other way around. I can't see how that is a win-win situation.



Building up god is not trying to crucify him,
it's trying to understand him, even when it's not clear.
[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]


Perhaps there would be no salvation if one was not crucified. Nevertheless, that is not my intention or never was, to crucify God. My intention was to consider as many possibilities as possible, narrow them down as much as possible, and then figure out why it must be the way it is. Before you figure out why it must be the way it is, there could be an interval where it doesn't look good for God. This is, like you said, evolution. Stepping back, finding new knowledge, and fitting together the puzzle. Ultimately we could have a new and better understanding of God.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 06:45 AM
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okay, that's a healthy reaction i am happy to see.

If my words are true, God can say.
Logic does not allow other possibilities. I am searchin other ones,
but i don't find them anymore.
and truth embraces a person when there is a full cross

What you are doing, testing what i said, is the way to do it.

ofcourse i tested everything for myself, or i wouldn't talk the way i talk.
I talk the way I talk because i bring a message
nobody else does. Mysteries are not explained
in a human way in one hour. So i can talk stuff
and see a whole fuller picture in my mind.
A tested thing, something that confirms my choices of before.

I agree with the bible (torah and gospel) message, I agree with the Quran message,
I agree with scepticism and think everything has to be logic,
which is truth, I try to explain revelation and Daniel,
I try to explain a paradox, I try to explain God and
prophets are normal. I try to explain symbolism,
and 'the no regard for woman', etc etc

What would a christian dogmatic call me ? false prophet.
What would a muslim dogmatic call me ? false prophet.
What does a dogmatic atheist, scepticist call me ?
unlogic, crazy ("truth one and free ???" "that's to simpleeee")
What does dogmatic new age call me ?
crazy, your god is to much one, personality
and you say false peace is 'bad'
it's 'bad' to say something is 'bad'

( """we believed in never ending patterns !!?!")
wordgames everywhere


What do i call everyone who cares in this world ?
human, the other name for humans who try to have mercy on all,
angels, they bring a message of mercy (and hope)

who is ready for that ? I am not, I never was.

I have one of the broken hearts in the world,
because i wanted to understand the people that hurted me and others.
It gave me a dramatic touch

And i wanted to see the mercy of God everywhere for everyone.
my fight 'killed' me but it made me fully normal in my thinking and being too.

I'm used to saying sorry, and it's a good thing,
I know these are words, allready written in the past,
and take them like that, words.

(but words that don't harm a person, and defend them in the end)


[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 07:24 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


""""""Before you figure out why it must be the way it is, there could be an interval where it doesn't look good for God. This is, like you said, evolution. Stepping back, finding new knowledge, and fitting together the puzzle. Ultimately we could have a new and better understanding of God. """"""""

right, for a while it doesn't look good for him,
that's a lost sheep, he looses his god first
to find him back as good.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


"""""" What I would like to do is to come to absolutes and verify the things you've said. If we can't come to absolutes, then they are possibilities. Unfortunately, you've created a scenario where I am testing the scriptures against what you say instead of the other way around. I can't see how that is a win-win situation. """""""

right again , but thunders are scary...
there are things god doesn't want to explain until someone is ready,
nobody has to belief me in that, but take it as my opinion,
When time goes fast it's more important that love
comes out, the gospel of love, the mercy message,
the hope message.
It always was choice for everybody. People always only had visions.
Choose one (by falling and returning, growth) or ignorance.
Relatives.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 07:51 AM
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""""
KJV is totally wrong in translations. Even anointed is mistranslated.
If you have wrong words about anointed ones, how can you be sure in scripture? """""
Now while this is probably correct, you've disallowed me from using any scripture. You instructed me one needs the spirit to make them understand words, which I didn't believe or know I have. In effect rendering me useless unless I used your logic. """""

reaction: nothing changed before or after, the scriptures seem contradicting for everyone, i was raised evangelical, the most fearfull kind, even me came out because of contradictions i couldn not defend against my heart and the gospel message of love.

lost sheeps first leave before they find. keeping hold to the bible as absolute truth is based on fear (sometimes by selfishness, sometimes by care and possibility) or ignorance...the word that is created by god is the living word, it lives in your heart and mind.

still there is no other book that (helped better) explain better the paradox of life,
the timings and the weights then torah and gospel. (and quran)
the bible is closest to the truth. But not in the way it is abused.
symbology is not there to judge, but to understand.

start with the basics, the basics i tried to explain,
they make you choose right.

the bible does't make you choose, the bible makes you think into the direction you choose. it acts as a book from life or from baal (divided). choice is not in the scriptures.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


""""It could also be seen as a half-truth. I thought I was clear I did not or did not know if I had a Holy Spirit. You should have known you were creating a pecking order by allowing me to believe this. In any event, I will take the responsibility for allowing myself to believe it without asking you point blank if everything you were telling me was coming from the Holy Spirit. I didn't because I didn't want to seem confrontational."""

actually i felt (= not know, but felt something like that) you could do this, but chose not to act on it, because
i believe in self responisiblity. Not answering is not the same as approval,
never !!!!
If you want to know it, you will ask the question, confrontation with good intent is never bad. (but to be honest, im tired of ats lol) and answers mostly don't come direct, in a straight line, mostly they come indirect, if you build a home, you will only build the third level on the second level. not ont he first right ? my english is bad

take care !



[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


"A demon is a lie.
Truth is build as a step-up."

It might be a Metalepsis, with a Metaphor.
If it was worded like this:

Lies are demons, truths are steps up.

it becomes an aphorism constructed by metaphor. Anyway, I am not the big expert of identifying figures of speech, as in giving them names, but it is clearly a type of speech that is not to be taken as strictly literal.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by theyreadmymind
 

it becomes an aphorism constructed by metaphor. Anyway, I am not the big expert of identifying figures of speech, as in giving them names, but it is clearly a type of speech that is not to be taken as strictly literal.


I don't understand how it is clear. What might be clear for one might not be clear for another. It might also be a reflection of one's personal views the way they interpret something.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Is it faulty logic that I come to that conclusion or was it done intentionally? Can it only discern the thoughts and intents of the wise and learned?

[edit on 2-10-2009 by theyreadmymind]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by pasttheclouds
the bible does't make you choose, the bible makes you think into the direction you choose. it acts as a book from life or from baal (divided). choice is not in the scriptures.
[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]


Maybe that was intentional. Anyway, I think you are a good person. Let's just get back on track and figure out how we can come at this with equal footing, that is if you still want to continue.

I'm actually not so sure myself because I don't think anybody will be willing to break this down before we put it back together.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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jesus spoke in parables for reasons.
parables are as a two sided sword, but it doesn't mean people (want to, doing the effort) understand it.




[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


Okay, now who does the discerning? Is it people or God? If people, is it the learner him or herself, or others? At which point during the learning process does the discernment begin?

[edit on 2-10-2009 by theyreadmymind]



posted on Oct, 3 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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Originally posted by theyreadmymind

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by theyreadmymind
 

it becomes an aphorism constructed by metaphor. Anyway, I am not the big expert of identifying figures of speech, as in giving them names, but it is clearly a type of speech that is not to be taken as strictly literal.


I don't understand how it is clear. What might be clear for one might not be clear for another. It might also be a reflection of one's personal views the way they interpret something.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Is it faulty logic that I come to that conclusion or was it done intentionally? Can it only discern the thoughts and intents of the wise and learned?

The word in your verse translated as powerful is energes (active), which shows up three times in the Bible. One of the places is in this one:

1 Corinthians 16:9 (King James Version) For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

The Greek is: “for a door has opened wide to me, great and effective.”
The translaters at NetBible have it as, a door of opportunity.

The other place is in this verse:

Philemon 1:6 (King James Version) That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

The word here translated as acknowledging is to come to a precise understanding. So this Greek word in you Hebrews verse, energes, is something Paul is wishing that Philemon's preaching will become, which will happen by his understanding of what good Christ is for us.

The word, logos, in Hebrews 4:12 in not used in the Bible to mean just ordinary words that people spread about, but more like something of its own substance, so most likely, the word of God in this verse does not mean a multitude of individual words, but the general pronouncements from God.
The Greek word for sharper implies that it is able to cut with a single blow.
The form of the Greek word for sword indicates something being actively used in the present.
The Greek word for two edged is also found in Rev, 2:12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the one who has the sharp double-edged sword:

, who is Jesus.
The Greek word for asunder, is one of two occurrences in the Bible of words with that Strong's number. The other on is also in Hebrews:
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

, translated here as gifts, so the Holy Spirit reveals things by making things asunder. Paul has a nice term, rightly dividing the word.
The Greek word for thoughts is always used to describe bad thought, in the new Testament.
The Greek word for thoughts is the same one Peter uses to warn believers to arm themselves with this same mind, meaning like Jesus'.
So you can take this nice information from using NetBible and make a translation:

For this body of knowledge that comes from God is alive and has unlimited possibilities at its disposal, can cut at once through the innermost and most fundamental parts that constitutes a person, completely revealing the truth of what is of God, and judges the futility of what is of your evil natural self.


I don't have all day to explain all that, but it comes from reading how these exact same words are used in other verses, which you can find with NetBible. A cool tool for understanding a verse that seems a little obscure in its meaning.

Some parts of the verse is metaphorical, like the joints and marrow.
The whole verse would be an allegorical statement.


[edit on 3-10-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 3 2009 @ 06:40 AM
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If you picked your god as one, or your heart confirms care above other things (one)
then the truth will cut away the lies quite esasily..
which doesn't mean in one day or week you will know truth
there
is a secret to cross and self responsibility, it is sharing cross. A god is one.
to be one he is equal in paying his creations to become one with god. God pays
those in salvation the same price/value , but they are to become one. It doesn't mean
he is not righeoussness. If you become one, who paid that same value ?

If you pick the opposite
the lies will cut away the truth for awhile

the bible also promised delusion.
verses can be used to attack or to build. (or both)
in many cases they are used to attack
something they want to understand in the now,
and do not because without effort,
there is no choice, no self responsibility.
God is responsible up there,
his invitation was to join him.




[edit on 3-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 3 2009 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by theyreadmymind
 


you decide the perspective

but the you is based on the possibilities it received.
you decide if truth or ignorance work in you.
if truth decides, it is not only you choosing
it is you as part of.
truth is something that is one


that are 2 different things.

now if you build truth, in heart or in logic, a human is dual in them,
then your lies get replaced with god coming down.
god is truth, truth is the child you grow.

in my opinion stay focussed on the basic questions
i asked you in the first pages... but follow ur heart.
(which is opposite of folowing impulses, heart = logic and feeling working together,
improving each other)


[edit on 3-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



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