Originally posted by dooper
Anyone who reads the Bible expecting it to be a scientific text is going to be disappointed.

If you don't believe it, then don't bother reading it.

That's a stunner! So we just wake up one day with a religious belief system out of nowhere? I'd rather read something and THEN make up my mind about it.

The interesting part of Genesis to me is when God told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth. Always had made me wonder. If this was our second go around to get it right.

Originally posted by Praetorian Guard
And, again, free will was involved...Adam ate because he wanted to. He wasn't forced to eat that fruit. He desired it. But it's true...this event...and actually all events, down to the unseen deaths of little sparrows...was predestined before the universe even came to be.

It was predestined that Adam will eat the fruit, but he did it according to his free will? I think predestination left him no choice. I don't understand what you are saying.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I seem to have a real problem with a couple of things here. If god already knows who's going to hell or not or even what prayers I will or will not make then what is the point? What you are saying is that from the moment of birth our entire life is set in stone and that your choice matters not. I cannot accept this.

I have free will and although I do not believe in hell, I do believe that if there were a hell, it would be my choice alone if I ended up there or not. If everything is predestined then why are there misionaries? They make no difference? This cannot be true because it is so illogical to me (not that I'm the smartest guy in the world...i'm not). The other issue is with the books offered so kindly above to help explain the bible. Although I understand, I find it unthinkable that god would create a book for the normal population like myself who is of average intelligence, that cannot be understood by myself. God wouldn't do that.

He would know that this book would confuse me...wouldn't he. (understood that god could be a woman or something else. I just find it easier to write in the masculine form)

Keep in mind that i'm really debating Calvinism and predestination and appolize if i'm off topic. I do feel its pertinant to the discussion.

Originally posted by amazing
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I seem to have a real problem with a couple of things here. If god already knows who's going to hell or not or even what prayers I will or will not make then what is the point? What you are saying is that from the moment of birth our entire life is set in stone and that your choice matters not. I cannot accept this.

I have free will and although I do not believe in hell, I do believe that if there were a hell, it would be my choice alone if I ended up there or not. If everything is predestined then why are there misionaries? They make no difference? This cannot be true because it is so illogical to me (not that I'm the smartest guy in the world...i'm not). The other issue is with the books offered so kindly above to help explain the bible. Although I understand, I find it unthinkable that god would create a book for the normal population like myself who is of average intelligence, that cannot be understood by myself. God wouldn't do that.

He would know that this book would confuse me...wouldn't he. (understood that god could be a woman or something else. I just find it easier to write in the masculine form)

Keep in mind that i'm really debating Calvinism and predestination and appolize if i'm off topic. I do feel its pertinant to the discussion.

Even in the Bible it is said that the greatest wisdom's will not be given to the simple/carnal man. So no, God doesnt leave the greatest wisdom's right int he open in our laps. That would be Thee given pearls to the swine (the Bible also talks of this). It talks about having to feed them with milk because they are babes not ready for food. It talks about the true key's of wisdom being locked away from the people. It aslo says to not store up things that can be destroyed. Material things cant be taken to Heaven....only things of spirit.

No God did not leave a material object for man to clinge to, Thee gave us cycles, orders and intuitition to what is the rightous way if we seek it. This doesnt mean to ignore books or any sort, because if they nature of the man that wrote the book was rightous, you will know that by their fruit, by their nature.

The OT is full of things that were not acts of people that were following a Holy nature. There are two natures in teh Bible....an those natures depends on the person telling the story.

This is why Jesus taught in parables....because the simple man will call these things foolish....as well as the enemies that despise the teacher coming to teach a new way or idea that goes against their own way.....there for....we keep killing the peace bringers.

Even the Bible says to test everything through the Spirit. What?? Test through the Spirit? Then why does everyone that follows the Bible say....well lets see what the Bible says about it? They have pride that they think they hold the answers....but the answers can not be given like that....it defeats the purpose of us achieving understanding....achieving the tree of knowledge that with understanding leads to life.

For the OP....much of the Bible is bias....for a special people, chosen people, chosen land....alll for material kingdoms and land for God. God could care less about all of that. To think God would give the order of no killing and then say....but go kill that nation over there cause they have your land I just now gave you....yet, its full of it. They follow without seeking.

There is still history and great truths....but the spiritual truths dont lie on the surface of the words....they are woven into it.

God is love, Thee is not jealous, is not prideful, does not boast, is not greedy, needs nothing of material objects nor uses material objects to give us guidelines. All of what we need to seek and understand is in Thee's template of the world, Universe, creatures, orders, cycles....life. The things that cant be rusted, destroyed ect.

We all have to read the bible with a young child who hasnt been exposed to ANY RELIGON AT ALL.Try it,IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND.

The bible was a set of orders or an instruction manual,and everyone didnt have acess to the tech,how many of us know what the government is doing right now?Whats the difference?If a plague hit the earth how many billions would die?The few left would have a whole lot of stuff lying around and there would be a lot of survivors scattered around the planet.

How long would it take the survivors with tech to teach the barbaric survivors to rebuild societys?

We were seeded here because humanity on a galactic scale is involved in a war,we were hidden here as a resource in this battle as a farflung hidden outpost,and what a resource we have turned into in the last three hundred years WOULDNT YOU SAY.Billions of tonnes of mined and refined metals and minerals,three plus billion soldiers or slaves or whatever.

Consider for a moment that possibly a vanguard remained here as overseers and possibly some were left here as punishment or because they would have been security risks.And their ability to travel off planet was taken away from them.Would you maybe be a little miffed if you didnt volunteer to stay?Dont you think there might eventually be a division between the volunteers and the punished?

Yes there are different groups actively living on this planet with us,yes some are bad,yes Hitler had allies,the bad ones,but we also have allies the ones who took me.Dont worry about the bad ones,they are like terrorists,thats all,troublemakers,they tried to destroy humanity on more than one ocassion the most well known being the influensa strain that killed millions and millions and millions around the planet and actually almost wiped humanity out completely,dont you find it odd that even with all of our tech and medical knowledge we dont know where the virus came from AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WE DONT KNOW WHAT STOPPED IT FROM MAKING US EXTINCT!!!Bad guys tried to sabatoge the war effort because they are miffed at being abandoned and good guys who understand their duty and are protecting mankind because they understand our importance and because it is their duty.

Please understand I was given the oportunity to leave here to fight,the soldiers were humans like us,possibly millions have already been recruited and lost.

If you just let go of the divine miracle bs you will begin to learn,if you meet one of the 15% that are either born or as I believe "altered or implanted as children"thereby removing the genetic blinders we are born with you will very quickly become "awakened".

That is our job,to help people see that the simple existance of different perspectives amongst us is absolute proof of our genetic blindfolds,knowledge is the only thing that will remove the blindfold and we must trust to believe in the validity of that open minded knowledge,so if we are practicing BLIND FAITH how can we ever trust someone who isnt divine enough to open our minds?

Religon absolutely prevents the connection between the informed and the un-informed,the latter being anyone of any religous denomination,sorry if that doesnt sound or feel good.I hate it when someone points out that I have been screwed over by trickery,DONT YOU FEEL THAT WAY AS WELL?

I have also wondered about pray. I think its actually more about accepting what is then praying for what we feel isnt right or fair. Its like we are saying....God, you made a mistake in my fate and I am asking you to fix it.

I think praying for strength, courage, ect are great things to pray for....but part of this world is accepting our fate and asking for help on how to work through it so we can be a light unto others for strength, courage ect.

Just adding thoughts, kinda off topic, sorry

I do by the way leave open the option of one divine creator of all life in the universe,I JUST DONT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE HERE ON THIS PLANET RIGHT NOW HAS THE ABILITY TO SHARE THE STORY WITH ME.

The story would not have any religous conotations whatsoever in my opinion,I said creator NOT GOD AS WE DEFINE THE WORD.

I can make a baby in my lifetime or I may not,does that mean that I have the power to "create"life,genetisists are using stem cells to replicate or rather "creat"or grow virtually every single cell in the human body,has anyone ever told us if a clone inherits a soul? Get real,dont you think someone somewhere has created a human clone,of course we have,BUT WE SURE AS #ELL HAVENT HEARD WETHER OR NOT IT WAS CREATED WITH A SOUL,AND WHAT IF IT WASNT,FOR THAT MATTER WHAT IF IT WAS ??

The bible is just a book,Im human and I say I was abducted by humans and this is my story,who will you believe,you cant possibly have any choice but to choose me over a book,and for that matter every single person who comes forward with disclosure MUST BE CHOSEN OVER A BOOK THAT PROPOGATES BLIND FAITH WHICH HAPPENS TO BE THE EQUIVILANT OF SPIRITUAL SUICIDE.All due respect to any religous followers of all faiths,I believe that religon provides a social environment and a buisness connection or support web for its members,JUST ANOTHER CLUB MY FRIENDS but I respect your right to your beliefs,I just want to awaken you to other possibilities without being called satan or a demon or whatever.Peace,and thank you for sharing your perspectives with me.

Originally posted by amazing
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I seem to have a real problem with a couple of things here. If god already knows who's going to hell or not or even what prayers I will or will not make then what is the point? What you are saying is that from the moment of birth our entire life is set in stone and that your choice matters not. I cannot accept this.

I have free will and although I do not believe in hell, I do believe that if there were a hell, it would be my choice alone if I ended up there or not. If everything is predestined then why are there misionaries? They make no difference? This cannot be true because it is so illogical to me (not that I'm the smartest guy in the world...i'm not). The other issue is with the books offered so kindly above to help explain the bible. Although I understand, I find it unthinkable that god would create a book for the normal population like myself who is of average intelligence, that cannot be understood by myself. God wouldn't do that.

He would know that this book would confuse me...wouldn't he. (understood that god could be a woman or something else. I just find it easier to write in the masculine form)

Keep in mind that i'm really debating Calvinism and predestination and appolize if i'm off topic. I do feel its pertinant to the discussion.

This area of theology is akin to Pandora's box and if you do not grasp first many fundamentals of a Biblical theology but seek to dive head first into this area then you're asking for headaches. There are various forms or views on Biblical "predesitination" yet I believe that many of these erroneous views can be abandoned if we first look to the nature and attributes of God.

Scripture declares that God is Sovereign. Meaning that since God created all He controls all, some argue down to the blinking of your eyes. Scripture speaks of God as the Potter and we are His clay and He can do with us as He so pleases for whatever God decrees it is "good". So if we are the clay who then are we to say to the Potter, "Just what do you think you're doing with me?" So the question becomes, regarding God and His Sovereignty, just what or how far reaching is that Sovereignty?

If God is limited in His Sovereignty then we must ask what other attributes He is limited in also? Perhaps His being Holy is limited or perhaps His Righteousness and or His Omnipresence? If that be so then what type of God would that be, he would then be impotent as many unbelievers state.

In short the universe is Gods and all in it. He is Sovereign over all, rules over all, even those who deny Him. He allows them to deny Him, perhaps even predestined them to their denial of Him so that in the end He is given Glory through their unbelief. Let's look at Judas. Judas had no real "choice" in his betrayal of Christ. Judas wrestled with the choice at hand but the script had already been written for Judas before the foundations of the earth were laid. He was chosen/predestined to betray Christ. He (Judas) would not and could not choose to NOT betray Christ although to him, and you also, it seems as though he had that choice.

When you state, "I cannot accept this" perhaps, if God is Sovereign to the degree I just explained, then you not "accepting" it has been predestined thus not truly your free choice. I have yet to read in Scripture where man has been given "free will". Scripture declares that no one seeks after God but rather God calls or draws His "elected" or chosen to Him. This is not a choice.

I don't see what all the fuss is about.....The Sega Genesis..... was WAY better than the Sega Dreamcast. End of story!

Sorry Undo: I meant to type:

Deut 26:5 'A nomadic Syrian (lit. 'Aramaean' which means the same thing...) ready to starve was my father'

cf: Hezekiel 16:3, Thus speaks the clan god YHWH to Yerushalayim : [Forget not that ] your birth and origin is from the Canaanites, for your father was an Amorite and your mother an Hittite …

I type waaaay too fast some times on these threads ! What a day !!

Originally posted by one4all
We all have to read the bible with a young child who hasnt been exposed to ANY RELIGON AT ALL.Try it,IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND.

Not sure a young child should be exposed to this!

While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, "I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)

There is more of this in the OT ...

I feel this thread is coming to its end. I would like to thank all that have contributed and have shared their views on the Bible. In parting I would like to share a quote from Shin Yatomi's book "Buddhism In A New Light".

One cause for the abuse of religion may be the prevalent view of religion as an external authority. When people view religious truth as superior and human beings as subordinate to that truth, then universal human values - such as respect for life, human equality and empathy for others - become secondary and are easily compromised.

All the best,

N

Hi Undo---

The Hyksos were 'mixed-blood-asiatics' which probably meant mixed northern Syrian in those days, the so called 'Shepherd Kings of Egypt' who seized power around 1700 to 1550BC, and were almost certainly related to the Canaanite blood types who were part Syrian anyway, but a little too early to call them 'benei Yisro'el' (i.e. Isralites), although the must have had some bloodlines in common with the Hyksos.

The Hyksos were long out of power by the time 'Mosheh' came along around BC 1320.

Interestingly, the Egyptian records do NOT speak of 'Israel' before 1290 (Mesha Stele) but DO speak of 'Hapiru' ('nomadic land thieves', 'brigands') who had migrated from Canaan to the Nile delta (e.g. around the Biblical area of 'Goshen') to water their flocks during an extended series of drought and famines, and were arrested (i.e. enslaved) as trespassers on Egyptian royal lands and put to work making store cities from mud bricks (but long long long long after the Pyramids were crumbling ruins, despite the 'Golden Girls' sitcom assertion that the 'Jews were the ones who built the pyramids' ! The benei Yisreol might have been expert tent-makers but they couldn't even build their own temple in Jerusalem, and had to enlist the builders of Hiram of Tyre in Phoenecia to do it for them...).

Whether the benei-Yisro'el and the 'nomadic hapiru' were the same group or part of a larger group is a great point of debate in scholarly circles today. The Joseph in Egypt stories seem to echo Hyksos period in places very generally, but these traditions were written down so many years after the event, then re-written then re-adapted to newer political realities after the Babylonian Exile (BCE 587 to BC 531) that history is quite lost in the process.

Also, don't forget the miscegenation that took place (and still is today) among the many tribal blood groups in the ancient 'middle' east. So many mixed tribelets regularly invaded and intermarried each other in the greater Levant (esp from BC 3000 to AD 200 and beyond) it is almost impossible to speak of anything like pure blood lines, but only very very broadly....in 'basic racial types'.

Remember Bath-Shebiti ('daughter of the Seven (gods) was a Jebusite princess married to Uriah the Hittite--before she got mixed up with a Moabite invader ('David, son of Jesse') and produced a son, later King Jedediah (aka 'Sholomon' = 'peace loving') who must therefore also be of mixed blood, like his father (David was part Moabite from his grandmother on his father's side - but remember the Levitical passage : 'No Moabite shall EVER enter the Congreation of Yisro'el, not EVEN BEYOND the 10th Generation !' so David technically is NOT an Israelite, at least according to that anti-Moabited Leviticial writer !