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Genesis was written by biased men.

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posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by Praetorian Guard
 



well if everything is predetermined then what is the use in doing anything? Meaning literally that whether I try to increase my knowledge, get a better job, find a different woman, meet new friends, get healthy or anything it doesn't matter because if I sit and just go through the motions everything that was going to happen would happen anyway. Pair this down to mean. "Sitting on the coutch and watching paint dry all day will get me the same result as getting out of the house and actually doing something productive." with this "new" calvinistic understanding of the universe. Why expand more energy when it doesn't change anything? why do anything hard?




posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
But yahweh didn't get invented till well after the egyptian gods and israel did not even exists when monotheism was conceived in Egypt.

There's no evidence we were created by any of these oldy worldy gods, so to say that one imaginary being and not another created us is kind of childish.


I'm explaining Moses' purpose in writing the creation accounts. It was a counter-claim against the opponents of Israel.

I also do not believe Yahweh is imaginary, so I do not believe I am being childish. And so, in light of my belief, I disagree that Yahweh was invented...He is the living God and the one who created everything we see. He existed for an eternity before the universe began, let alone since before the invention of the Egyptian gods. Whether or not groups of men at a certain point in history came to the conclusion that there was only one god doesn't influence God's actual existence one way or another. God exists independent of our conception of Him.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by amazing
reply to post by Praetorian Guard
 



well if everything is predetermined then what is the use in doing anything? Meaning literally that whether I try to increase my knowledge, get a better job, find a different woman, meet new friends, get healthy or anything it doesn't matter because if I sit and just go through the motions everything that was going to happen would happen anyway. Pair this down to mean. "Sitting on the coutch and watching paint dry all day will get me the same result as getting out of the house and actually doing something productive." with this "new" calvinistic understanding of the universe. Why expand more energy when it doesn't change anything? why do anything hard?


If you sit on the couch all day and watch paint dry then you have not chosen to do so but it has been predestined for you to do so.

What you fail to grasp in your explanation is that you have no idea what tomorrow brings, nor the next hour so you can only speculate as to what MAY happen if you do this or that....by the way your post in this thread was predestined, meaning that before the foundations of the earth were laid God predestined you to write it.

Rather interesting, no? There are those who hold to a "limited" form of predestination in that man has choice but that God knows prior to our choice which one it will be, yet not controlling that choice.

For me personally I am in study and prayer seeking to have a deeper grasp of it myself. Perhaps God predestines only our salvation but leaves other things to us. Does God really care what body soap I "choose" from the hundreds offered for sale? I'm not really sure........yet.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by Sigismundus
Where does Moses claim to have written the Torah, including Genesis?
I haven’t seen his name at the bottom of these paleo-Hebrew writings...


Ecclesiastical tradition counts for something. Both the Christians and the Jews receive this text as coming from Moses and have for thousands of years.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by Nosred
I just had an idea that maybe God actually meant for them to eat the fruit. He might have even planned everything that happened including lucifer's rebellion. It's the only thing that makes sense seeing as he's omniscient.


Right on the nose! Good shootin, Tex!


Originally posted by Nosred
Look at it this way, if there was no evil to tempt us it wouldn't really be free will. I mean, if there's only one option to choose from we're not really free are we?


Well, after the Judgment and the renovation of this cosmos into the New Heavens and New Earth, there will be no option for anyone to sin, yet we will be more free than we are today.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by amazing
well if everything is predetermined then what is the use in doing anything? Meaning literally that whether I try to increase my knowledge, get a better job, find a different woman, meet new friends, get healthy or anything it doesn't matter because if I sit and just go through the motions everything that was going to happen would happen anyway. Pair this down to mean. "Sitting on the coutch and watching paint dry all day will get me the same result as getting out of the house and actually doing something productive." with this "new" calvinistic understanding of the universe. Why expand more energy when it doesn't change anything? why do anything hard?


Calvinism isn't exactly new. John Calvin was one of the stars of the Protestant Reformation.

The Christian idea of predestination includes primary and secondary causes. The primary cause is God's decree. The secondary cause is a man's actions. God predestines human interactions through secondary causes.

So, if you sit on the couch all year and think a job is going to mystically present itself to you because, after all, everything is predestined, so if I'm to have a job one will happen is a serious misunderstanding of the kind of predestination I'm talking about.

Also, we cannot know what is predestined until it actually happens. So you can't just assume X will happen and then just wait around for it to appear. You have to go get it and make it happen because this brand of divine predestination takes place in time and space through secondary agency.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
If you sit on the couch all day and watch paint dry then you have not chosen to do so but it has been predestined for you to do so.


Actually, he has chosen to sit on the couch. There was an act of a human will to accomplish couch sitting. God predestined the sitting, but Amazing did the sitting and did so because he wanted to.


Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
Does God really care what body soap I "choose" from the hundreds offered for sale? I'm not really sure........yet.


Ephesians 1 says all things are predestined. And yes, God is concerned with everything in this universe, including soap selection. His decree governs everything from galactic events down to the discreet interactions of sub-particle physics.

Talk about witnessing the biggest conspiracy of all time...the divine council in predestination is THE biggest conspiracy ever! A good one, though.



[edit on 21-9-2009 by Praetorian Guard]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by moocowman
 


well we have alot of evidence of abductees, spiritual experiences, seeming miraculous (i.e. unexplainable) events, sightings, artifacts, texts, the thing is about to jump up and pull your ear!


And to a degree I agree, but this is only evidence of, of incidents that as yet we have not got reasonable explanation for, as apposed to being unexplainable.

The Cargo Cults of Tanna make for fascinating reading and give us better understanding of how peoples can deify that which they cannot explain.

Just because there is something that is about to jump up and pull my ear, does not mean that something is beyond the scope of human understanding or explanation, we just haven't figured it out yet.

To my mind the simplest solution to the worldwide fragmentary "evidence" if it can be called that, is that perhaps at some point in our history primitive societies came into contact with more advanced societies.

We can then theories based on oral traditions and texts where the more advanced societies came from, but the remain theories.

Regardless of where the more advanced societies came from, we know with reasonable certainty that humans have had a tendency to deify what could not be explained or understood.


If a an alien landed on the White house from lawn tomorrow, this would not immediately confirm that Enki et al were real interlopers but would certainly increase the probability.

Indeed if the Alien in question did confirm the Enki stories we could not be 100% sure that the dude is telling the truth, he may just be playing to our wishes, we simply weren't there to know.

Whatever, in this particular model we have even further reason to throw the biblical Yahwhe out the window and see it as a probable derivative of the Enki story.

No supernatural beings here as we now have explanation and this is the big difference between scientific inquiry an the delusion of religions.

Scientific inquiry (mostly) demands explanation religion/faith dose not it fears explanation and inquiry.

To speculate on what little evidence that is left us, is wonderful thing and stirs the imagination but to dogmatically insist on one explanation without all the information is not only foolhardy but childish, children literal do this.

Jesu or Yahweh could be one of many things, they could be products of fertile imaginations, they could be visitors from another world there is equal evidence for both and yet both are more likely given what we do know, than "creator of all that there is/was/or will ever be".



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:09 AM
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Originally posted by Sigismundus
Where does Moses claim to have written the Torah, including Genesis?
Several locations in the Old Testament and several in the New Testament make the claim that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible.



Here are the TWO CONTRADICTORY Creation Myths in the Book of Genesis

Creation Myth # 1 (Gen 1:1 to 2:4a) aka P-Creation Myth v. Creation Myth # 2 (Gen 2:4a to 4:26) aka JE-Creation Myth - Name of the Deity : ELOHIM trans. KJV ‘God’ (plural, governing a singular Heb. verb e.g. ‘bara’, ‘he created from zero’) - ORDER OF CREATION (non scientific, with plants being ‘created’ BEFORE the Stars or the Sun—so much for photosynthesis !)


These are 24 hour periods, however God did not need the evening. He only created these during the daytime, in less than 12 hours. Light was created without source of light, and plants were created in that light before the new sources were made. Didn't make much difference, anyway, as they were not going to die overnight even if they had to wait for a sun or moon for light.



v. Creation Myth # 2 (Gen 2:4a to 4:26) Name of the Deity : YHWH ELOHIM trans. KJV ‘THE LORD God’ the ORDER OF CREATION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT (No ‘7-Days’ specified) -

It's fair to say that you don't accept an overview in Chapter 1, right? Why not?


A Pre-Existent Earth ‘formed’ from pre-existing matter then the Heavens ‘formed’: no rain yet but a spring would well up from the ground, from mud ADAM was ‘formed’ alone ) then animals, then Hayya


In the beginning there was no space, no time, and no matter. There was God. All was occupied by God. Following this, God created a beginning of time, then opened up a space in that time, and inside that space He placed the Earth. Gen 1:1



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by Praetorian Guard
 





I'm explaining Moses' purpose in writing the creation accounts. It was a counter-claim against the opponents of Israel.


There is no evidence that moses ever existed, what evidence there is points to a mish mash character of Egyptian Pharonic/Priesthood.




I also do not believe Yahweh is imaginary, so I do not believe I am being childish.


And I defend your right to believe whatever you choose to believe, as long as you don't present it as fact without facts.





And so, in light of my belief, I disagree that Yahweh was invented...He is the living God and the one who created everything we see.


This you have no evidence for as Yahweh is the product of the bibles and does not exist outside of these books no reference to this charter is made outside of them.
(Undo will draw the Elnil connection but this will not further your case but confound it)





He existed for an eternity before the universe began, let alone since before the invention of the Egyptian gods. Whether or not groups of men at a certain point in history came to the conclusion that there was only one god doesn't influence God's actual existence one way or another. God exists independent of our conception of Him.


You have at this juncture moved the goal posts slightly, you started out proclaiming your belief that Yahweh was/is very real character without evidence and then proclaim that it created everything without evidence.

Yahweh appears in the bibles in exodus, the claim is this is the same being that appears in Genesis, whether it is or is not there is no evidence for either.

There simply was not any exodus of Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, this event never took place, the Egyptians did not have 2million Hebrew slaves the event did not occur.

As the event did not occur, anything alluding to this imaginary event becomes suspect which includes the alleged creator god yahwhe. As there is no reference to yaweh anywhere other than the bibles around the alleged time period, it is fair to deduce that yawhe sprung into existence then in the biblical oral traditions, or was an amalgam/reworking of other known deities.

So the question then is, why do you not worship Amen (just for Undo Enlil lol) as Amen was worshiped way before yawhe was even thought of. If you're going to worship a being that there is no evidence ever existed, why not pick the one with the greater probability of existing ?



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by amazing
reply to post by Praetorian Guard
 

well if everything is predetermined then what is the use in doing anything?

Often misunderstood, the concept of predestination in scripture does not imply that you are bound and set to do something, whether your will is to do it or not.
Predestination is another means of understanding the omniscience of God. God knows all things, from forever to forever. Before the Earth was made, God knew you and every event in your life. He did not compel the events, but only knew them. He set things in motion, and intervened when called upon in prayer and supplication. However, He knew the prayers and supplications would occur, too.

Because God foreknew, a kind of predestination exists. It is the same kind of predestination you have with your child. You know in advance by perhaps weeks or years that your child will be in school on a certain day at a certain time.

God knows who will be in heaven. To God, those who will be in heaven are already there, as He is outside time.

Additionally, it is a straw man argument to state anything factual about God. It is not science, it is faith. You will not prove God with scientific experiments, peer reviewed and repeatable. You will believe in God or not. "No man cometh unto the Father unless He draw him."

[edit on 21-9-2009 by Jim Scott]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


you mentioned enki only. enki had a father, who was also called LORD OF THE COMMAND. his name was enlil. you got a B on that response cause you deliberately simplified the sumerian histories, left key figures out of your deliberations and then swept the whole thing under the rug based on YOUR personal frame of reference. you also weren't present, i'm assuming, when darwin wrote origin of the species.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by moocowman
 


you mentioned enki only. enki had a father, who was also called LORD OF THE COMMAND. his name was enlil. you got a B on that response cause you deliberately simplified the sumerian histories, left key figures out of your deliberations and then swept the whole thing under the rug based on YOUR personal frame of reference. you also weren't present, i'm assuming, when darwin wrote origin of the species.



Women !!! Aggh

Dear Allah



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 10:59 AM
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Wow, lots of food for thought on page 5. Thank you all for keeping the discussion civil!



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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Genesis is an identical copy of the Sumerian creation tale. It was not biased, just copied and morphed into a new religion. Like humans, religion evolves (but creationists ignore that truth)



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott

Additionally, it is a straw man argument to state anything factual about God. It is not science, it is faith. You will not prove God with scientific experiments, peer reviewed and repeatable. You will believe in God or not. "No man cometh unto the Father unless He draw him."

[edit on 21-9-2009 by Jim Scott]


I couldn't agree more!

Problem is though when the Bible states that the earth is the oldest celestial object (remember God created the stars after He created the earth) then we have a factual problem. Once I find out that an author fabricates one "fact" I tend to be very suspicious of all other accounts. Wouldn't you?



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Hi Jim Scott-

You need to understand that the 'torah' was written and edited and re-written and edited from oral sources and finally edited by the school of Ezra in the 5th centiury BCE.

No where in the text does it say that Mosheh wrote the Torah as we read it today, and traditional attributions are just traditional attributions that have no evidentiary weight, in view of the fact that there are at least 6 distinct writing styles in the text (including a lot of editorial passage insertions) which date far later than the alleged time of 'Mosheh'.

Since you are clearly NOT conversant in the material first hand, a good place to start would be to take a beginniner's paleoHebrew course so you can detect the different writing styles (say between Gen chapter 1:1 to 2:4a and from say 2:4b to end of chapter 4) which also can be discerned in American English translations of the Masoretic pointed text of the 10th century CE versions.

Also there is an American High School level book called WHO WROTE THE BIBILE? By Richard Elliott Friedman, a student of the great Frank Cross of Harvard University. Paperback: 304 pages Publisher: HarperOne (March 21, 1997) Language: English ISBN-10: 0060630353 & ISBN-13: 978-0060630355 Product Dimensions: 7.9

Most newcomers to Genesis (and other Torah) find that they have to read the first 4 chapters of Friedman’s somehwat over-simplified book 3 or 4 times before they ‘get it’ – not that it’s rocket science, but because it’s often brand new info for them and they end up asking : why haven’t their Priests, Ministers or Rabbis never EVER once told them about these things (hint: they don’t want you to know !)

Read Friedman's book (then you can graduate on to The Pentateuch: An Introduction to the First Five Books of the Bible (Anchor Bible Reference) by ex-Oxford Professor Joseph Blenkinsopp of Notre Dame University, ori. published by Doubleday in 1991 ISBN 038541207X : 9780385412070 but re-published by the Yale University Press in the year 2000.

Once you've mastered those two books by re-reading them at least twice, you will be well on your way to a more intelligent and fact-based discussion (both are available now in cheaper paperbacks too)

Keep that mind open !



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Pauligirl

That article was actually about anomalous radiocarbon ages.


Radiocarbon dating is carbon 14 dating.



Radiocarbon dating, or carbon dating, is a radiometric dating method that uses the naturally occurring radioisotope carbon-14 (14C) to determine the age of carbonaceous materials up to about 60,000 years.

wikipedia



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by the siren
 


Are you saying that there is no star older than the earth? And if so, are you able to back it up with data? I'm looking forward to reading your reply.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 07:33 PM
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Anyone who reads the Bible expecting it to be a scientific text is going to be disappointed.

If you don't believe it, then don't bother reading it.

If you don't believe it, there's nothing there for you anyway.

You can, however, examine the Old Testament prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled, and the accuracy is astounding.

The Old Testament prophecies concerning the modern-day nation of Israel are fascinating.

I mean, 2,000 years ago, they were a people completely undone, and scattered to the four winds. Even slaughtered during the recent Nazi regime.

And yet, a lot of Biblical scholars knew what the prophecies were, and were even more stunned when they came true.

EXACTLY as prophecied, which is unbelievable.

Ezekial 6:8 reads, "Yet I will leave a remnant, so that you may have some who escape the sword among the nations, when you are scattered among the countries."

Isaiah 66:8 reads, "Who hath heard of such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the Earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Ezekial 34:13 "And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country."

Jeremiah 23: 7-8 "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they no more shall say, 'The LORD liveth which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
(8) But, the LORD liveth which brought up and which led the seed of the House of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."

While until 1948 it was the era of the Gentiles, the promises to Abraham and the sons of Israel have never been forgotten. And one thing we can see throughout the Bible is that God is not slack concerning promises, as men are slack concerning promises.

He keeps His.

Isaiah 43:1, 5-6, Ezekial 36:24, and on and on, it is foretold that His people would be gathered out of other countries and returned to their own land as a nation.

But here's the first stunner:

Amos 9:15 "I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God."

Isaiah 17:1 reads, "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city and it shall be a ruinous heap." The oldest ongoing city in history.

You can read a bit further in the Chapter and see that it's there one day, and gone the next.

You can read of the destruction of the nations that will assail Israel, and I find it uncanny that these are Muslim nations today, each of which have stated a hatred against Israel in recent years.

Whatever.

Now anyone can read as I have, and discern that there's more going on here than a group of authors who put together a book.

And if you can't discern that, that's in the Book too.

But to discount or minimize the Old Testament is just plain dumb. If the entire contents of the Old Testament could be condensed down to one word, I'd say it would be "obedience."

The New Testament would be "grace."

You don't get the grace without the obedience.

People think they really are themselves important.

I drew some diagrams on paper, I created those drawings, and when I was done with them, I didn't even think twice.

I tossed them into the furnace.

You're nothing special. His house, His creation, His rules.

And you don't follow the rules, you get tossed.

Your choice.



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