Genesis was written by biased men.

reply to post by thomasc83


I hear you and I can totally relate as a parent. (Unfortunately you don't really address the omniscience problem, but that's ok.)

The reason God did that was because he wanted people who would follow him because they choose to not because they had to. Until they ate from the tree they didn't know any other way. God wanted them to know they had a choice.

reply to post by calstorm


Don't you mix cause and symptoms? God explicitly forbid to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. So He wasn't pro choice ...

reply to post by Nichiren


still got to choose yes? said this before, will say it again, seems like tree of knowledge isn't exactly what we think it is.

Hey Praetorian Guard—

Where does Moses claim to have written the Torah, including Genesis?
I haven’t seen his name at the bottom of these paleo-Hebrew writings, and it is clear that whoever wrote Genesis chapter 1 is the same school of scribes who wrote the Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Hezekiel who lived in the 6th century BC long after ‘Mosheh’ (compare the syntax, grammar, bad spelling, theological Weltanschauung, sentence lengths, phraseology etc.) And anyone who wrote the ‘book of Deuteronomy’ is the same person/group who wrote Joshua (and the Death of Mosheh is described in both books !) so Mosheh could hardly have written it. And anyone defending the pre-scientific gibberish in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 as ‘factual science’ needs to take a basic Hebrew and Comparative Religions Course.

If you are one of those persons who claims to ‘believe’ every word of the ‘bible’ and yet cannot even read un-pointed paleo-Hebrew (or never bothered to read Genesis chapter 1:1 to Genesis chapter 2:4a CLOSELY EVEN in ENGLISH you might be in for quite a shock to your system.
(NB: it really helps the beginning student to use a highlighter of one colour for the 1st myth and another colour highlighter for the 2nd myth so the different writer’s styles stand out better) and then ADD Genesis chapter 5:1-3 (same writer as 1:1, so use the same colour) then COMPARE line for line the Creation Myth # 2 in Genesis (Chapter 2:4b to 4:26—which you can highlight with another colour highlighter of your choice).

File this under the heading: ‘The Things My Sunday School Teacher (or Rebbe) Never taught Me...’ To get a beginner’s intro to this material (NB: this is not for theological ‘sissies’ but ONLY for persons who REALLY want to get a the truth) a good place to start is a high school level book called WHO WROTE THE BIBILE? By Richard Elliott Friedman, a student of the great Frank Cross of Harvard University. Paperback: 304 pages Publisher: HarperOne (March 21, 1997) Language: English ISBN-10: 0060630353 & ISBN-13: 978-0060630355 Product Dimensions: 7.9

Most newcomers to Genesis (and other Torah) find that they have to read the first 4 chapters of Friedman’s somehwat over-simplified book 3 or 4 times before they ‘get it’ – not that it’s rocket science, but because it’s often brand new info for them and they end up asking : why haven’t their Priests, Ministers or Rabbis never EVER once told them about these things (hint: they don’t want you to know !)

Here are the TWO CONTRADICTORY Creation Myths in the Book of Genesis

Creation Myth # 1 (Gen 1:1 to 2:4a) aka P-Creation Myth v. Creation Myth # 2 (Gen 2:4a to 4:26) aka JE-Creation Myth - Name of the Deity : ELOHIM trans. KJV ‘God’ (plural, governing a singular Heb. verb e.g. ‘bara’, ‘he created from zero’) - ORDER OF CREATION (non scientific, with plants being ‘created’ BEFORE the Stars or the Sun—so much for photosynthesis !) Day 1: the heavens, earth, light, day and night. Day 2: the "Dome" (Heb, Req’iak = ‘bowl’) that separates the waters below from the waters above the Dome Day 3: dry land and vegetation are created Day 4: sun, moon, then the stars (NB: stars according to this Myth were created after the earth, vegetation sun and moon…) - Day 5: water creatures and birds. Day 6: land animals; humankind (both male and female created together see: 5:1-2 ‘and he called THEIR name ADAM in the day they were created). ELOHIM gives to people "every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth for food" (Gen 1:29) -- no prohibitions. Day 7: ELOHIM rests, and blesses the 7th day.

v. Creation Myth # 2 (Gen 2:4a to 4:26) Name of the Deity : YHWH ELOHIM trans. KJV ‘THE LORD God’ the ORDER OF CREATION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT (No ‘7-Days’ specified) -

A Pre-Existent Earth ‘formed’ from pre-existing matter then the Heavens ‘formed’: no rain yet but a spring would well up from the ground, from mud ADAM was ‘formed’ alone ) then animals, then Hayya

reply to post by Nichiren


Thank you. You are very openminded. You seem to be very gracious whether you agree or not. To be honest about the omniance part, I could theorize several different explanations. But I feel that since I am not omnipotent myself, I would have no true way of knowing. All I know is that I've searched deep within myself for these same questions at times. And I don't think God was suprised. He knew that Adam was trying to hide from him and knew that they realized they were naked. He simply asked the questions of them which goes back to the parenting thing I said earlier. Honestly, if something if a supernatural entity that is omnipotent, then God may not see things as setting them up for failure, but a way of teaching them something that they otherwise might not have ever learned. We, as humans term things "Good or Bad". If we were all knowing and all seeing, then we might just see choices as the next step towards a final end result. Maybe that end result isn't good, isn't bad, but just "Is"?

reply to post by thomasc83


Well put!

Just as a side: where is AshleyD when I really need her

reply to post by Nichiren


I just had an idea that maybe God actually meant for them to eat the fruit. He might have even planned everything that happened including lucifer's rebellion. It's the only thing that makes sense seeing as he's omniscient. Look at it this way, if there was no evil to tempt us it wouldn't really be free will. I mean, if there's only one option to choose from we're not really free are we?

reply to post by Nichiren


I just had an idea that maybe God actually meant for them to eat the fruit. He might have even planned everything that happened including lucifer's rebellion. It's the only thing that makes sense seeing as he's omniscient. Look at it this way, if there was no evil to tempt us it wouldn't really be free will. I mean, if there's only one option to choose from we're not really free are we?

reply to post by Nosred


Never thought about it in that way. Interesting take - God creating evil so we can exercise free will.

reply to post by Sigismundus


something like this, perhaps, might help to elucidate what you're saying?
www.jewishchristianlit.com...

Hi Undo--

Yes indeedy...Friedman of course was following his teacher the great Frank Cross of Harvard, who in turn derived his knowledge from his earlier Harvard theological team who had in turn inherited alot of this sourced out material info from Graf-Wellhausen in the late 1880s -

Friedman's book is a good overview for the beginner though, and I would encourage anyone who wants to look at this material intelligently to read his book to get started

A more advanced approach is taken by the Anchor Bible Series The Pentateuch: An Introduction to the First Five Books of the Bible…Yale University Press ISBN 0300140215 - EAN 9780300140217

288 pages reprinted in the year 2000 written by Catholic Ex-Oxford and Univ London (now Notre Dame Professor) Joseph Blenkinsopp who summarises most of the generic textual source material-knowlegde ref: up to the mid 1980s--who does a very admirable job, but unfortunately does not touch enough perhaps on all the very latest Dead Sea Scroll variant copies for some people (like me) !

sigi,

hey while you're here, do you know anything about kabbala?
this quote:

likewise Blind Dragon that is above, in the likeness of a spiritual form, is without eyes, that is to say, without colors....

is that meaning to say that it has eyes but no irises...just whites of the eyes ? this text is very interesting. lilith is riding a dragon in it.

Yep Genesis was written by biased men who loved their God and believed him the only true God. Funny today it is read in mistranslated form by Illiterate fools that don't understand the original language, culture, don't have a clue about the ancient beliefs and start flame bait threads to attract the even lesser intelligent to side with them or start an discussion about a topic which they have no real understanding. Funny that

reply to post by Barkster


Thank you for your insightful post. I have learned a great deal about you.

for the op

This makes me believe that the talking serpent is indeed just a talking serpent.

The Nachash and His Seed
Some Explanatory Notes on Why the Serpent in Genesis 3 Wasn't a Serpent
tiny.cc...

reply to post by undo


Thanks for the link ! I appreciate it.

Originally posted by Nichiren
Here is another conundrum for me. Since God is omnipotent and omniscient He knew that planting the tree of knowledge would result in the serpent making the move. He also knew that Eve wasn't able to resist the temptation.

I asked in my first post: why did God set up his own children for failure and then acts totally surprised?

Free will doesn't apply, because God knew what He set in motion by planting the tree.

You're barking up the wrong tree with me on this point. I'm a Calvinist. I believe the Fall of Adam was predestined by God. I also don't believe He was surprised...since He decreed it, He knew it would happen.

Also, since He's omniscient, He knew it was happening. The interrogation of Adam and Eve is there to move the matter along.

He could have simply said, "Adam, I know what you did so you're banished. Good day to you!" But that wouldn't have been very artful nor relational. He spoke with Adam...gave him the chance to respond to his Creator. He didn't just crush him under His thumb. He treated Adam as a son. Plus, remember...this is a work of literature. The event is described in a way to move the reader through the import of the event.

And, again, free will was involved...Adam ate because he wanted to. He wasn't forced to eat that fruit. He desired it. But it's true...this event...and actually all events, down to the unseen deaths of little sparrows...was predestined before the universe even came to be.

Originally posted by Nichiren

Genesis 1:16

God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

Age of earth 4.54 billion years.

Star found in our galaxy 13.2 billion years.

Also, "Let there be light" came after the earth was created.

Source: www.physorg.com...

Please understand first and foremost that Genesis is NOT intended to be a science book but rather a record describing to an enslaved people that their God is not many but One. The creation did not come from already made matter or from mythical creatures but was spoke into existence from their God, who is Sovereign over all. They are His people, He is their God.

In regards to the stars and their age astronomers are not exact in their age but rather estimate their ages based on color and speed of rotation. There is a theory I had read once and how gravity and also a lack of it can have a effect on age and appearance (this is a very condensed explanation on my part) that I shall try and dig up so I can better reply in regards to stars and their age.

The phrase "Let there be light" was NOT the creation of the sun but rather it was the glory of God. When God spoke creation into being He, in essence, broke through eternity and time/space started, thus what I believe to be the "big bang". There was darkness (chaos) and to correct this God brought forth "light".

Many scholars hold that this is the creation of the sun but it was not highlighted directly until later.

Originally posted by Nichiren

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

But then there is a different account on the creation of the female ...

Genesis 2:22

Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Which way is it?

Many people claim that there are 2 creation accounts within Genesis but that is incorrect. We have one creation account phrased in 2 ways. Look at it as an author that describes an account in a general manner, an overview of happenings and then zooms in for a more detailed explanation. So first it is written that God created male and female in His image and then it goes into a more exact detail, the first mention speaking of mankind in general, the second part going into more detail of the first man and woman.

Originally posted by Nichiren

Genesis 2:18

The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

I really don't think that a divine spirit would describe a woman as a suitable helper ...

The context of this passage is man realizing that there is no mate or helper for him. In all the animal kingdom there is none like him so God created his helpmate, flesh from flesh and the two shall become one. It speaks of a sexual, emotional and spiritual union. Also the better word is "companion".

Originally posted by Nichiren

Genesis 1:25

God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

God created all the animals, including the serpent. And all was good! So how come the serpent turned against God? What made the serpent not good? Many agree that the serpent is a symbol for Satan, but why not state that explicitly in the scripture? Why omit that crucial point?

Also:

Genesis 3:14

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

This makes me believe that the talking serpent is indeed just a talking serpent.

Many times when I teach I begin with the nature and attributes of God. When one has a better grasp of His nature and attributes and applies that understanding to Scripture then we can get a better, deeper understanding of Scripture. God is Sovereign over His creation and His will is always done for it is Perfect. All that God decrees is Good and all thjings are worked together for His Glory, even evil.

So in a nutshell, God was not caught off guard by man and his rebellion nor the serpent but rather God allowed it to happen....or better pre-destined it to take place. Many people claim that man has "free will" and thus choose sin or evil over God and His will but in reality Scripture only alludes to man having "free will", it is never stated that man has free will. If Scripture declares that God is Sovereign then we must ask how Sovereign is He, is it limted or is God Absolutely Sovereign over all His creation? I know that if I build a model I can display it or destroy it thus I am sovereign over it in a finite manner.

Originally posted by Nichiren

Genesis 3:11

And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

God knows everything. So why set up his children for failure and then ask questions he already knows the answer to? This doesn't make sense to me.

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Sounds a bit too macho for 2009.

In sin there is a curse, Christ is the cure of that curse. God took and shed the blood of an inocent animal (innocent of mans sin) to cover the nakedness (sin) of man and women. This is a look forward to the Messiah and how He will shed His innocent blood for the sins of man. The difference between the two is that the animal skins are only a temporary (yet more permanent than leaves) covering of their nakedness. Jesus then is the "once for all" offering. So yes, God knows everything, but even further He has pre-destined all things to take place as they have for again, His Will is Perfect and all that He decrees is Good.

There is also said to be a curse on marriage, that being conflict between man and women. The women seeking to control the man and vice versa but in a Christ centered marriage the two are to understand that the man is to be the spiritual leader of the two but that the woman is to be by his side for she came from his side. The husband is not to lord over his wife as a dictator but rather draw his wife to his "side".