Absolute, Irrefutable Evidence of a Creator, page 8

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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Okay, then if you are not saying that the universe came from "nothing" then what happened? Please, I am all ears. Explain it to me.

Alright, but just to be fare I did offer a truce that you are apparently rejecting with such ridiculous questions.

First things first, if I say that the universe did not come from "nothing" then what could it have possibly come from if GOD isn't the answer.

WOW! That is a great question! I love it when you start trying to prove something to someone they just automatically label you as some sort of smart ass. Well I guess since I have put you in this position it's much better than phrasing your words like I do, insinuating that you are a dumb-ass even though your educational record is so far beyond what I have accomplished at 22 years of life.

I am sorry, I got off track with the whole assumption that you thought I was a quantum physics and mechanics expert!

Really though, the answer to your first question is: ITS BEYOND HUMAN COMPREHENSION! Yes that's right, beyond human comprehension! Why? Because man's idea of time cannot be observed at some sort of birthing point, what you're asking for is the impossible! Even if we get to the point where we see beyond when our universe began (to which scientists have been able to look back to less than a second after), THAT'S JUST OUR UNIVERSE!

Oh boy... here comes EGO FULL THROTTLE!

Listen you apparently others to believe that something came from a something called GOD, now lets say we just say # science and let your completely untestable, unobservable, unintelligent hypothesis fly in the global community mmmk. Uh oh, speed bump, now we got god believers asking well where did GOD come from? Obviously since GOD created the universe something must have created god!? OMG ARE WE WORSHIPING THE WRONG SUPER-BEING!? But didn't we hear that he was the "Alpha and the Omega" the "Beginning and the End" but then that must mean god came from nothing if GOD was the BEGINNING!

...MMMK!? Do you see why god is flawed yet? Can I make it any simpler?

Lets delve a little deeper assuming by using the word "universe" you actually meant to say "space and all that we know".

Well I did answer that already with "it's beyond human comprehension" but here's my idea, THERE NEVER WAS A BEGINNING! Why? Because a beginning ultimately means that there is an END and therefore infinity would be impossible and would not exist today! The fact that infinity exists disproves man's concept of a god outright, there may be a planet somewhere where godlike creatures are born or even manufactured. What does that mean? What a completely radical statement! IT MEANS THERE WAS ALWAYS SOMETHING String Theory might be the closest we have to an answer right now and the world of quantum physics blended with a certain spirituality or philosophy (to which I believe Buddhism to be) i.e. the "Law of Attraction", the "Conscious Universe", "Power of the Esoteric Mind", etc.

Now that I have answered that question, lets see if the others are even worth taking my time.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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Atheists on these boards act as though their logic is somehow superior to mine.

...because you don't use logic. Oh wait, wait yes you do LOGIC2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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I graduated at the top of my class in high school, went on to an Ivy League education on scholarship, and even spent four years in research. Please, do not tell me what my argument is. Allow me to speak for myself.

It is not a stretch to say that atheists believe that "nothing" created "something", although my word choice of "create" could have been better.

Wow an Ivy League school!? You know, I would really like my ego to just take this and run with it but I will use a bit of self-restraint for now.

I don't tell you what your argument is Prof. Pompous, I simply reiterate it in my own words rather than take a direct quote from what you said earlier. Can't believe I am arguing with someone who received Ivy League education! Sure there wasn't any cheating involved? No? Help from mommy daddy? No?

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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Correct me if I'm wrong:

1) You do not believe that something sentient was involved in the origins of the multiverse, ergo you believe that "nothing" lit the fuse, so to speak. (Y/N)

Your question is a #ing conundrum or whatever the word is that describes something that CANNOT be answered with a yes or no!

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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2) It is a random sequence of events that mysteriously landed in a path of accidental logic and progression, and lucky us, there is a non-sentient guiding force called "life" that, for a lack of a better word, struggles to continue existence. (Y/N)

3)However, that "life" does not really have a motivation, per say, as that implies something creative and mystical, but just continues to perpetuate upon itself according to quantum physics, math, M-theory, and other "logical", "scientific" theorems that in no way, shape, or form should be mistaken for "intelligence" although it does appear that it might because of the logical approach versus random "luck". (Y/N)

WRONG.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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I am asking if I have the atheist, yours in particular, view correct, because now I want to know why that is superior to believing that something sentient (do not mistake "sentient" for anthropomorphic entity with a name) is responsible. I am careful not to define what that sentient is aside from that it is logical and purposeful.

I am much closer to the idea that an individual's consciousness is responsible for their own reality but that is something that would take whole other mess of exchanges which I rather not be involved in. Its soo much easier if you investigate for your own damn self rather than pose questions to me and act as some sort of time vampire.

reply to post by Copernicus

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Open your eyes, they are all miracles.

Where do you think they come from?

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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As for atheists, what have I done to hurt them or minimize them by defending my own beliefs, or to take up for others that have one? Have I called them names? Have I said they were going to Hell? Have I said they were stupid?

Please tell me what exactly I have said or done that is hurtful to an atheist besides question them, and considering the pride in skepticism I would think they welcome the questioning.

Mmmk, I believe I said Buddhist philosophy not religion. and personally I prefer Thich Nhat Hanh. I don't have to agree to everything they say, I just try to use the teachings to make my life better and bring myself to a higher consciousness, however I am still an immature little 22 y/o who will get in the face of others whom have opposing view points especially when it comes to subjects so sensitive.

NO you don't use blatant words to describe your dissatisfaction, instead its in how you type, like talking down to a three year-old. If you can't deal with blatancy GTFO or act like the supposed adult that you are and not whine about it.

Originally posted by brightlight
reply to post by A Fortiori

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Awesome Contribution with some great points. My rationale is that even if I don't know for 100% sure that there is a Creator because he doesn't show himself (only through his messengers who all gave knowledge on the nature of the universe, and presented a warning to mankind that we are finite, where one must feel the sincerity and make the choice to believe in them and their unified message), I absolutely will not take the risk of leading a life without knowing, fearing, and loving my Creator. Being aware that the Lord of the Worlds is watching me in this life, which is a test for all. Seeking knowledge in a creator sincerely brought great enlightenment into my life. I changed in terms of being more aware of the way I behave and treat others. I am more thoughtful, and weigh my decisions in such a way where I am thinking of always trying to the right/positive thing. And if I find myself in a situation where I made a bad decision, I will take refuge in my Lord, God, Allah, Rabb, knowing that He is all Merciful and Compassionate. It is a win win situation because if I am wrong, and there is no Creator, and when I die, that's it light's out and I have no soul which survuves remotely out of my body, then I haven't lost anything in terms of valuable knowledge in order to nurture my eternal soul and prepare myself for the other side and my judgment.

Go preach to a flippin quire. We're having a discussion/argument, this isn't Sunday School.

reply to post by GenLo

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you did NOT just face palm wtf

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Copernicus

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Open your eyes, they are all miracles.

Where do you think they come from?

Please can you define a miracle, same as this ? -

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at Date: 12th century

1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment

3 Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

If it's (1) Please provide recorded testable proof

If it's (2) well there you go unusual events do occur.

If it's (3) once again please provide recorded testable proof

Hearsay won't do by the way and in relation to number(1) many xtians in response to the yahwhejesus god not healing amputees, that it doesn't actually get involved inhuman affairs. Hmm

reply to post by GenLo

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GenLo,

I was reading your responses and my first thoughts were of a scene in a Jane Austen novel where Mr Darcy and Elizabeth are bantering back and forth.

"And your defect is a propensity to hate every body.''

"And yours,'' he replied with a smile, "is wilfully to misunderstand them.''

At no point did you answer my exact question, you created my argument for me and proceeded to destroy that argument.

Allow me to clear some things up for you. I stated my offense that I am treated like some cousin-marrying troglodyte with a disparate education, when in fact the opposite is true. No, I did not have the luxury like some of going to an Ivy League school on the padded checkbook of my wealthy parents. I had to get one of two scholarships allocated for "my" kind. If I had rejected "science" and plugged my ears in biology whilst someone spoke of evolution I would not have gotten an "A" on the test, not passed biology, and not gotten an academic scholarship.

My issue, Sir, was not with people who politely state their opinion on the non-intelligent design origins of the universe, but with those who find it necessary to label and disparage those that disagree with them.

As for your replies to my questions, once more you are attempting to label me as one who believes in an anthropomorphic deity in white robes creating the universe 6,000 years ago. My suggestion was that there seems to be a sentience, an order that I do not happen to feel is "accidental" and then self-perpetuating. The accident part is what I don't buy, but I do buy the self-perpetuating.

So, your offer of a truce (I suppose I missed that entirely) that you claim to have initiated....I'll accept. Here is my offer:

I will not put words in your mouth, please do me the same favor in return. Let's put aside the ad hominem and reductio ad absurdum fallacies and promise to engage in more kind-hearted exchanges in the future.

Deal?

*holds out hand*

EDIT: As to your comment about my condescending "tone", I apologize. It is very difficult to remain light-hearted and fun when I am being labeled and then ridiculed. I tend to retreat a bit when that happens.

Moocowman completely disagrees with me (I think) and yet he doesn't disparage me. I don't believe I have been condescending with him. I will, however, work on this.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by calihan_12

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Religion is so absolutely corrupt and it needs to be done with imo. Without religion, people would still believe in a higher power. People would still know right from wrong because of human basic insticts. I love how people always say if we didn't have religion then the world would be chaotic and evil. Look around you, is the world not chaotic and evil?

I am not picking on you, but I want to make a point. It needn't be said that religion is so absolutely corrupt and needs to be done away with. Of course it can be said, but it needn't. When you say these things you hurt the feelings of the religious because they love their religion the way a parent loves their child, or a spouse loves their significant other.

People don't take it well because you are disparaging something that someone loves and holds dear.

Have people used religion to do harm? Yes. But not all religious peoples have done harm.

Have socialists like Stalin and Hitler done harm? Yes. But not all socialists have done harm.

The common ingredient is people and yet we keep blaming religion. If there was no religion people would still harm each other because the real reason these things are being perpetrated on mankind is greed. Religion, politics, philosophies are but the scapegoats.

As for the argument that some Christians or Muslims use the "you're going to Hell if you don't believe", my aim again is to point out the key word "some". I posted in defense of homosexuals on another thread and I am a self-proclaimed Christian. When asked about Hell I say "Hell" is earth. I do not fit the stereotype and the statistical probability of me being the only Christian to not conform to type is very slim.

I would appreciate it, and I know others agree, if we didn't say things like "I think that the world would be a better place without religion" or "...atheism" or "...Republicans" or "...Democrats" or "...socialists". Because it just hurts people's feelings and creates tangential debate.

I know that no matter what I say people will continue to view me through a one-dimensional lens. If I say I am a follower of Jesus the majority of people will label me: dumb, homophobic, uneducated, etc. Quite honestly I don't like, and I know minorities don't like, being labeled with characteristics that we as individuals did not earn.

Again, not trying to pick on you, yours was just the last post in a long line of them saying the same thing.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by calihan_12

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Yes, I understand that you do not wish to hurt anyone's feelings, but this is a thread about evidence of a Creator and, once more, religious peoples get to hear that religion is evil.

Having worked in global relief I can tell you that there are far more religious peoples sticking their necks out at checkpoints with men holding AKs than non-religious, and yet I would not think to stereotype the nonreligious with a wide brush and state that atheists are more afraid of dying for a cause they believe in. I don't have enough evidence to support that, nor do I know enough atheists personally to have even the slightest idea as to their feelings. In short, I'm not willing to label them as "bad".

I may be willing to speak to the atheists I have met, but that is it.

I get that it is your opinion, and I am not trying to tell you to change the opinion or not have that opinion. I was pointing out that stating that opinion in a thread about the existence of a "Creator" will inadavertantly hurt peoples feelings.

It is your choice as to what you choose to do with that bit of "evidence". That's all.

And...if you feel I am singling you out, I apologize. I just want to change the nature of this debate because all of us were starting to become heated.

"Words are wise men's playthings".

If you want to move beyond opinion to discover the truth about whether God exists, study the research at
smphillips.8m.com...
(51 downloadable PDFs). It reveals the existence of transcendental intelligence within the sacred geometries of some religions that proves their mathematical connection to current research in theoretical physics. Unbeknown to many physicists, they are stumbling across the divine design.

Science and religion are two sides of the same coin. There is no religion higher than truth and there is no distinction between scientific and religious truth at the highest level far beyond dogmas. Discover what that coin is in these research articles. But be prepared to work hard in order to master this work. The glimpse into divine Unity that they afford is gained only through making the necessary effort.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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GenLo,

I was reading your responses and my first thoughts were of a scene in a Jane Austen novel where Mr Darcy and Elizabeth are bantering back and forth.

Your read my response? Really? I can hardly believe that when followed by the rest of your post.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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At no point did you answer my exact question, you created my argument for me and proceeded to destroy that argument.

Can I quote you on this? Oh wait I already did.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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Okay, then if you are not saying that the universe came from "nothing" then what happened? Please, I am all ears. Explain it to me.

And then I proceeded to answer this question thoroughly since the others were just complete rubbish holding no merit what so ever.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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My issue, Sir, was not with people who politely state their opinion on the non-intelligent design origins of the universe, but with those who find it necessary to label and disparage those that disagree with them.

Oh so THIS was the main issue! THIS was the "exact question" that I missed! No wonder you think I am putting words in your mouth! Apparently I am using mind control because the quotes I used earlier were just something I implanted in your mind to type!

See this is why I use quotes, perfect insurance.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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As for your replies to my questions, once more you are attempting to label me as one who believes in an anthropomorphic deity in white robes creating the universe 6,000 years ago.

Yes, yes I am because when you make statements like:

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by randyvs

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No worries. I just like to profess my faith. I am a happy little camper when it comes to that.I believe in G-D. Absolutely, and I have a hard science background to boot. Nothing else made sense to me. Be forewarned, there are posters who find me holier than thou. I will work on this.
[edit on 5-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

It makes it difficult for me to imagine you aren't unless you would like to further clarify your beliefs for me. When you say something like, "My suggestion was that there seems to be a sentience, an order that I do not happen to feel is "accidental" and then self-perpetuating." I can be a little bit more understanding.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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So, your offer of a truce (I suppose I missed that entirely) that you claim to have initiated....I'll accept. Here is my offer:

I will not put words in your mouth, please do me the same favor in return. Let's put aside the ad hominem and reductio ad absurdum fallacies and promise to engage in more kind-hearted exchanges in the future.
Deal?
*holds out hand*

Would you like me to quote only myself? Anyway its a deal! But it probably won't be this thread since you will be so tempted to mount a rebuttal to my earlier statements and we must both leave this thread to DIE!!!!

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

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EDIT: As to your comment about my condescending "tone", I apologize. It is very difficult to remain light-hearted and fun when I am being labeled and then ridiculed. I tend to retreat a bit when that happens.

You were claiming to be completely innocent of using words to be insulting, however connotations in the phrases you used pointed to otherwise.

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