Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Pathos
I ignored speculative garbage.

Like the fact the same scenario used in 9/11 was laid out in a plan by the CIA called Operation Northwoods to be used against Cuba?

I guess them terrorists must have had a copy eh?

Personally I suspect you work for 'them' and are here solely to stir the pot to gauge how strong the 'truther' support really is.

I also suspect the next time will involve a small nuke on one of our cities... after that everyone will be so made they will let the PTB do anything they want...

Just not sure which city would be sacrificed... that would still make a strong enough outcry



[edit on 5-9-2009 by zorgon]

Operation Northwoods

Here is the most alarming section of the document.

A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms: a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba. b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

I also think that these threads do get started by operatives for the same reason you outlined. Every so often they need a climate test.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Beefcake]

reply to post by JPhish


Even in my first post you will see that the two images are not the same two different angles... two different positions...

Originally posted by billybob


like the explosions that are visible far below the collapse front. the "squibs".

Just this one statement tells me you know nothing of demolitions and are merely parroting back what you read on a 911 site. Lets get technical what explosives were used? It couldn't have been a squib how was it wired where was the detonator. How did they get it into the wall? Before you try to pretend you understand demolitions take the time to at least learn the basics. I have demolitions training and trust me thats not a blast caused by explosives.In a building with that design the holes would have made lines from the blast almost like a crack. Do you even have a clue how hard it is to fracture a steal beam with explosives!This is why demolition companies weaken a structure and aloow gravity to bend the beam.

[edit on 9/6/09 by dragonridr]

Originally posted by Beefcake
Here is the most alarming section of the document.

You know the most AMAZING thing about that document?

It made MAIN STREAM News

And i just checked... its still there

ABC News

U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War With Cuba
abcnews.go.com...

Now here is the kicker...

LOOK AT THE DATE ABC CARRIED THIS
By David Ruppe
N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001

ABC released the story 5 months before the attack

reply to post by zorgon


Ive all ways been amazed with how far the CIA will go but they very rarely get the support to actually do these operations.Not to many presidents are willing to stick out there neck that far.Last one i can think of was Reagan when he authorized Iran Contra and set up Oliver North to take the fall. I have no doubt terrorists attacked the world trade center i just wonder who was in the background pulling the strings? Id think its unlikely the CIA would knowingly support the attack, but i sometimes wonder if they had an operation blow up in there face and there actions had unintended consequences.

reply to post by Pathos


Are you a disinformation agent or are you just another blind idiot?

Open up your eyes and your mind and go and do some research.

When 911 first happened, i was so angry and i thought that it had been done by Terrorists.

After 6 years of solid research i now have no doubt in my mind that 911 was an inside job that was carried out by the US Government.

911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB! Hopefully the truth will be revealed one day.

Originally posted by dragonridr How did they get it into the wall?

Your forgetting the wiring work that went on for weeks that no one noticed They were running new internet cables

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by billybob


like the explosions that are visible far below the collapse front. the "squibs".

Just this one statement tells me you know nothing of demolitions and are merely parroting back what you read on a 911 site.

really? which site is that?
the FACT is that i come to my own conclusions, and more often than not tend to leave 'facts' hanging in the limbo with shrodinger's cat. i can easily counteraccuse and say you are just parroting debunker bull crap.
i have DISCUSSED this issue at length for YEARS with debunkers you are not fit to shine the shoes of.
the syringe/plunger theory does not cut the mustard.
there is no possible pathway for compressed air to travel down forty to sixty stories ahead of the collapse front and then "choose" to blow out highly localised points in the windows. there is a thing about air pressure, and energy. energy takes the path of least resistance, and air pressure is will be equalised with the larger volume of air around it.
so, if you want to say that the air was "plunged" down ducting, then you must assume the thin, tin ducts are stronger than the skyscraper's windows.
you must also assume that the air not only was pumped through the air ducts faster than the "plunger" that was pushing it (possible by squeezing a large air mass into a small space), but that when the air was finally released sixty stories below the collapse front, that it traveled through thirty or sixty ft. across the room (from the core where all the potential passages were, to the windows) in a concentrated jet that only knocked out two or three windows.

Originally posted by dragonridr
Lets get technical what explosives were used? It couldn't have been a squib how was it wired where was the detonator. How did they get it into the wall?

nice try. typical debunker tactic. i have to know everything that DID happen just because i can see what DID NOT happen. let's not get technical. i do not have to name everyone who planted whatever devices were used, either, nor do i have to know what day they were planted and what the guys on the crew had for lunch. all i need to know is that there is no way for these explosive jets to have been produced so far away from the collapse front. note that some squibs popped out at almost exactly the same time the collapse began, so there wasn't even a plunger, and also, they were BELOW the mechanical floors where all but two or three elevator shafts terminated.

Originally posted by dragonridr
Before you try to pretend you understand demolitions take the time to at least learn the basics. I have demolitions training and trust me thats not a blast caused by explosives.In a building with that design the holes would have made lines from the blast almost like a crack. Do you even have a clue how hard it is to fracture a steal beam with explosives!This is why demolition companies weaken a structure and aloow gravity to bend the beam.

i don't pretend to understand demolitions. just simple science.
i know RDX cuts through steel like a knife through butter. so what? that doesn't mean it was RDX. it does mean it is possible to cut through a steel beam like a knife through butter. the "squibs" only need to blow out windows, they don't need to fracture perimeter columns, if that is what you are suggesting.

i'm not saying i know what the squibs ARE. only what they are NOT. they are NOT air pressure blasts from a giant syringe like apparatus.
it is more likely that these were produced by charges set in the core, perhaps merely placed on the floor in the center of the core. the "funnel" for the air would be the corridors in front of the elevators.

if you look at this floor plan, you will see a nice match between the exit points of the squibs, and the hallways between elevators: typical floor plan

reply to post by dragonridr


why can't you unblock you're mind and just realise that the CIA has NO MORALS. why does it have to be an operation that blew up in their face? why do you NEED to believe that?
they are capable of anything. once you start killing humans for greed and power, all borders and nationalities disappear. there are only bank accounts and personal ladder climbing position that motivate you at that point.

reply to post by Pathos


(This is a repost because I did not get a reply)

First off, I would like to say that I do not consider myself a " Truther", or any other name you would like to put on people's opinions. Also I would like to say I do not believe the entire official story . I have just recently (4 or 5 months ago) started to look into the events that took place before, during , and after 9-11 . So if you don’t mind, may I ask you (Pathos) some questions ? Please answer my questions with respect and common courtesy.

( This is in no way a shot at you, I am only asking because you started this topic and I need some of the things you said explained.)

1. (Pathos) Do you believe the official story 100% line for line?

You said

Once Wikipedia is entered as evidence, the whole logic behind everyone's 9/11 conspiracies are lost.

2. So are you saying that nothing on Wikipedia can be used as logical evidence. Can you not use Wikipedia for logical evidence at all or is it just with 9-11?

3. In your opinion how come they found Saddam in a hole underground and still have not found the person they said planed the whole thing Osama?

4. In your opinion why did Osama plan 9-11 when the bush family and his were good friends in the past ?

5. In your opinion how did the paper passport made it out of the fire that brought down the towers.


You said

So, you are all physics experts with a Doctrine's degree? You know how architecture is affected by an airplane crash?

So, you guys know how an airplane comes apart from hitting a building at high-speeds?

6. If the planes did bring down the north and south tower how would you explain WTC7 falling also?

This is all for now
Thank you








[edit on 6-9-2009 by s14mikeysr20]

Originally posted by Pathos
Here is your missing plane for Flight 77:

Pentagon Camera I
(Frame - 1:27) Visible plane nose.

Pentagon Camera II
(Frames - 0:25 to 0:26) Plane skimming the ground.

Its Pentagon surveillance footage.

Like I previously said. Its grotesque to think that people believe this was a conspiracy.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]

Pathos, you posted the above footage twice, so you are obviously convinced that it was really a Boeing 757 that crashed into the pentagon.
I would really appreciate it if you are willing to tell me your view or version about how that enormous plane could have slashed completely thru the pentagon wall.

Because there are more the one theories about it all.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1bcad79704e1.jpg[/atsimg]

I am especially interested in your view or version on how and where the wings, engines and tail slashed thru the wall before they entered the building, because I cannot find even one picture that clearly shows the damage for that.

Thanks in advance.
]

[edit on 6/9/09 by spacevisitor]

reply to post by Pathos


simply if your only information to the subject is from the main stream media, then you are unfortunately misled about a few things

aside from that, i am one who believes in order to find any real truth, people need to stop saying the government was involved, and just wait for investigations to prove who was involved

however what i find really interesting now is that van jones situation

because he believes there is more to the 9/11 story then meets the eye, and more then we have found out, he has been asked to resign and now he is no longer in the government

this disturbs me, this used to be a free country and a democracy

it is neither anymore, if it was free, he would not have to resign over his beliefs

if it was a true democracy, the millions questioning the official 9/11 explanation would not be ignored and criticized the way they are, they would receive more respect

the fact that a member of the government can not have a belief that goes against the majority really worries me, it proves you cant be a free thinker in the government and that you have to conform if you want to participate

we should be free to feel and think what we wish

this situation is what has me seriously questioning how the government cant be involved now

if they werent involved, they would be open to investigation, they would be open to van jones believing in more in the 9/11 situation

but them forcing him to quit basically over his beliefs of 9/11 pretty much cements in my head that one way or another, the government was involved, whether they were involved in the action itself or whether they were involved in some sort of cover up

simply put the way the government has acted towards those who question things makes me come to no other conclusion then they were in some way involved



[edit on 6-9-2009 by Dramey]

Pathos,just as an insight into your character,could you describe to us how you would feel if you came to the conclusion the Government were involved in 911?

Would it be fair to say that it would shatter your belief in the government,and cause you much pain and stress?

The way you fail to adress the obvious flaws in the official story suggest to me that you are suffering from some kind of psychological denial of even the possibility of Government involvement.

Sort of like how abused children cut out memories of abuse,as it is just too horrible for thier young minds to comprehend.

The human brain has a way of shutting off that which it feels may destabilise its equilibrium-I think you may be suffering from such a predicament.

Once,just once will you tell us all:

How the pools of MOLTEN steel came to be at ground zero?

How did Al quaeda made NORAD stand down?

They are just 2 points of hundreds,which if you look at rationally should lead you to question the official story.
I bet you cannot adress these points with logic,as I believe part of your brain just could not cope with what it would find to be in total opposition with your much cherished official story"security blanket."


Some here think you are a paid up disinfo agent,working for TPTB.

I do not think that is the case,I just think you are unable to handle the thought of your benevolent Government killing its own people,which in fact it has been doing since at least the beginning of the 20th century.
You said you base your opinion on 300 years of American history-I suggest you re read the last 100years or so.

I feel sory for you,but I am also a little envious of someone who believes their government could never kill its own for political or commercial agenda.
I must be a nice world you think you are living in.

If you look at the 'leaders' of this so called 'truther' version, you will notice the person is hawking a book--or BOOKS, and/or videos and other crap.

What's sad is people fall for it, and become followers of something someone invented to PROFIT off of the tragedy that was 9|11. (And it snowballs from there like the supposed 'fake moon landing' lol)

Just disgusting... People like Alex Jones. Seriously, go look at Alex Jones website and count how many ads he is running.

www.prisonplanet.com...

He's making a killing off of ignorance. Amazing..... There's a sucker born every minute.

When you want to follow and/or believe is someones ideals, always look for the hidden agenda first. If they're selling a book or has more that 2000 ads on each webpage, it begins to reek of BS....

And Also look at who's websites they link to.

BTW, WTC7 was downed by massive amounts of iron and debris falling into the lower levels obliterating the supports. View these spec pdfs here:

www.drjudywood.com...
(Her views are incorrect, but she links to the actual data and good photos)


[edit on 9/6/2009 by Pharyax]

[edit on 9/6/2009 by Pharyax]

Pathos:

You seem to pass judgements on things you may not have full knowledge on.

"What type of human being do you have to be in order to believe 9/11 is a conspiracy?"

Who are you to just throw us "truthers" (i guess you would call us), into one huge group, and question our morals, ideas, and beliefs as you did with your opening post? You did infact say by that one line, in effect, that anyone who does not believe in the official story, is wrong on many levels.

I personally do not agree with the Official story. There are so many things wrong with it, it shouldnt even up for debate anymore( WTC 7 Biggest key to the BS story told). By creating a post such as this, you dont think it brings up bad memories for everyone posting? You seem to think we get off or something speaking on this. Thats kinda messed up on your part.

I Wish everyday that I did not know this information, because trying to speak to people like yourself, hurts very much. Seeing someone who believes so much that a government could never do this to their people, and will do anything to prove any fact thrown at them as false, is upsetting.

One thing you should learn to do, is open your mind a little bit. There are many things going on in the world today that are so wrong on so many levels its incredible.

Just one thing that comes to mind..
*The Catholic/Christian Religion is the Richest organization on the planet, yet People are starving to death in south america due to lack of everything needed to survive....(so what they cant spend some $$ and help them out? Nah, everyones Greedy in this world and in it for themselves)

The Healthcare issue going on today in the U.S. You love your governemnt so much, that i guess you also seem to be blindsided by the tricks they are pulling over people as i speak. Obama's Town hall meetings, being staged, only letting people inside that are either part of his administration or people that are not protesting outside of the buidling, just to pass his bill. Open your eyes, Listen and look and question everything going on, Turn off the news and think logically/analytically/philosophically what you just took in. Dont think about things just one way. Check out other means of News information other then mass media, you will see a huge difference in opinion. Learn that Information is Information(neither good or bad) and will always be second hand info being delivered to you unless you were actually there.

Look at your governments History and get yourself more informed. Dont come in here looking for things to debunk to try to make yourself feel better. Knowing the truth is always better then eating BS.

Unless you are willing to be able to think and accept in your mind, that either one of these situations is possible, you are being biased, and will never be able to see the truths to anything in life.
A. Governments Official story was true in every way.
B. Governments Official story was the truth, Mostly.
C. The Governments Story is a complete cover up to what happened.
D. Your Government is Lieing to you every day you hear something new.

Until you are able to Question everything given to you and make rational unbiased opinions, do not make judgment calls on things you seem to not have researched fully on. Dont think you will come here, be spoon-fed some info and have a changed mind in a matter of minutes. I have done Tremendous Hours of research on many different subjects, not just on 9/11, to find truths to many different things in and on life itself. It would be wise for you to do the same. Open your mind and look at both sides of the story instead of making it sound like were all a bunch of wacko/sicko's if we dont believe in the official story.

Originally posted by Pathos
Reposting this again.
Here is your missing plane for Flight 77:

Pentagon Camera I
(Frame - 1:27) Visible plane nose.

Pentagon Camera II
(Frames - 0:25 to 0:26) Plane skimming the ground.

Its Pentagon surveillance footage.

Like I previously said. Its grotesque to think that people believe this was a conspiracy.

I watched those 2 security clips, and I can truelly say visually it looks as much like a harpoon missle as it does a plane. There is a building in the way, ya see a little white streak and boom. 1 second of frame, it could be a plane, it could be a harpoon missle, it could be a ufo

[edit on 6-9-2009 by hisshadow]

Even Dan Rather, notes, that the buildings fall with the same action as a controlled demolition

www.youtube.com...


It isn't that hard to notice.

reply to post by hisshadow


Was that Dan Rather the civil engineer or Dan Rather the physicist? Maybe it was Dan Rather the news reader who has no clue about anything technical. What did Ed Asner think? Surely he's an authority on such matters.

reply to post by Pathos

"We the people "did not gain financially . Cheney, Blaclwater, Silverstein, and many other rich and powerful did however.