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Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque

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posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 

you probably never watched Perry Mason. Ok. the way it works, is you won't know why I think the way I do unless you understand what brought me to my conclusion. Since you started a thread about how evil the truthers are, I kind of thought you were interested in a discussion about that particular subject. If you are only interested in hearing your own thoughts, I suggest a quiet dark room where you can hear yourself and no body else. It will cut done on the annoying two way conversations that keep trying to happen.

If the US government was capable of doing evil atrocities to one of it's own navy ships in the past, how can you say smugly that it would never happen again?




posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Pathos
 

you probably never watched Perry Mason. Ok. the way it works, is you won't know why I think the way I do unless you understand what brought me to my conclusion. Since you started a thread about how evil the truthers are, I kind of thought you were interested in a discussion about that particular subject. If you are only interested in hearing your own thoughts, I suggest a quiet dark room where you can hear yourself and no body else. It will cut done on the annoying two way conversations that keep trying to happen.

If the US government was capable of doing evil atrocities to one of it's own navy ships in the past, how can you say smugly that it would never happen again?

How can you say that it did happen again? We can play 50 questions all night; however, the bottom line is that 9/11 conspiracies are foolish theories without merit. I am not interested in a re-examination of false evidence. I am interested in the question about how can people believe in such 'gross' logic. Have you guys ever listen to yourselves? Maybe you guys are correct about one thing. If there was no external influence, you guys have to be nuts to suggest such horrific revelations.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:23 PM
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While we are waiting for the music to stop and everyone grabs a chair, Here is some information on the two USS United States.
the first was a civil war era ship thatwas scrapped December 1865 - January 1866 prematurely due to abuse and neglect.

link

Next we have a wiki link. I know, I hate using wiki too, but it's just so damn easy. The second USS United States was never built. It was to be a large carrier but some budget shortfalls destroyed the project.

link

And here is a bit of info regarding the USS Liberty.

link 1

link 2


Sorry to interject truth into what would become a fantastic bit of fantasy.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


so when you get to the end of your rope and you have been faced with the hard truth that what you believe may not be 100% true, then you resort to calling me crazy? I don't deny that I am a nut. I have been reading about Bigfoot, the Lock Ness Monster, and UFOs since I could read. So yea, I am certifiable. But in all that reading, I have been able to use a little common sense to find a path to reality.

Your turn.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos

How can you say that it did happen again? We can play 50 questions all night; however, the bottom line is that 9/11 conspiracies are foolish theories without merit. I am not interested in a re-examination of false evidence. I am interested in the question about how can people believe in such 'gross' logic. Have you guys ever listen to yourselves? Maybe you guys are correct about one thing. If there was no external influence, you guys have to be nuts to suggest such horrific revelations.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]


If I had been accused, tried, and convicted of bank robbery 5 times,. and 1 week after I got out of prison my local branch of the Bank of bucks was robbed, and the surveillance showed me casing the bank in the days prior, would I not be a prime suspect? Logic. It's a terrible thing when used against you.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by network dudeSorry to interject truth into what would become a fantastic bit of fantasy.

In the words of actor Jack Nicholson. "You can't handle to truth".

You go to bed in the comfort of your own homes. You think the world is safe when you walk out the door. Once you sit down at your desk, you still feel secure knowing your little bubble cannot be broken. What you do not realize is that its a harsh world out there. People are trying to kill our way of life. After you learn about some of the techniques we use to defend ourselves, you stop in shock and awe about what we do to protect your precess bubble. People begin to riot. Sure, some of the things we do are controversial, but they save and protect the rights that you take for granted. You and other theorists like you can't stand the truth, so you create false truth to keep you safe at night.

Terrorist attacked us on 9/11. We let our guard down, and we paid the price for our negligence.

If you want to give a bomb wearing terrorist a hug, I am in no means of stopping you from doing such a foolish act. There are terrors in the real world, which people cannot handle the sight or though of.

Life is not a box of chocolates, and people die to protect our freedoms. 9/11 conspiracy theories defy all logical reasoning. Look around. People are dying to protect your freedoms, and you are telling them that they are an agent of evil.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by Symbiote
 


This thread is huge, thread me and follow the link to source. That interview is a great place to start.

NM there it is: www.independent.org...

[edit on 5-9-2009 by jprophet420]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


The only thing that defies logic in this thread is your insistence that nothing happened on 9/11 other than the official story. I don't know who you're attempting to convince with this thread, but it clearly isn't working for most of us.
All of your statements and rhetoric basically amount to: "9/11 conspiracy theorists are crazy/stupid!"

Not exactly the first time that most of us have heard these kinds of things.

Keep rambling if you'd like though, it's a little sad but mostly amusing.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


I think you have me mistaken for someone else. First off, I served this great country and took an oath to defend her from all enemys foreign and domestic. And just because I was honorably discharged in 1995 doesn't mean I get to disregard that oath. I will carry it an others until I die. I understand that some things are done for the good of the country and shouldn't be disclosed. And I don't blindly believe that there were no planes, or there were holograms, or that directed energy weapons took down the towers. I would like nothing more than to go back to sleep and have 911 never have happened. unfortunately I don't have that option. Some of what we (the Public) were told is false. Maybe for good reason, but who gets to decide that for us? You? I have an analytical mind which I use to troubleshoot problems everyday. I can handle the truth. What I can't handle is being lied to with piss poor stories that don't make sense. At least tell me a good one. Don't insult my intelligence. I am alone on a island in thinking that Bush did a fair job as president. I don't think he purposefully did anything to degrade the United States. He, like any president, doesn't have total control to do whatever he wants. His orders were delivered by lobbyists with deep pockets. Tell me Washingon doesn't operate that way, and you are only fooling yourself. I will leave this thread and not disrupt the flow any more than I already have. Sorry to have upset you.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Pathos
 


I think you have me mistaken for someone else. First off, I served this great country and took an oath to defend her from all enemys foreign and domestic. And just because I was honorably discharged in 1995 doesn't mean I get to disregard that oath. I will carry it an others until I die. I understand that some things are done for the good of the country and shouldn't be disclosed. And I don't blindly believe that there were no planes, or there were holograms, or that directed energy weapons took down the towers. I would like nothing more than to go back to sleep and have 911 never have happened. unfortunately I don't have that option. Some of what we (the Public) were told is false. Maybe for good reason, but who gets to decide that for us? You? I have an analytical mind which I use to troubleshoot problems everyday. I can handle the truth. What I can't handle is being lied to with piss poor stories that don't make sense. At least tell me a good one. Don't insult my intelligence. I am alone on a island in thinking that Bush did a fair job as president. I don't think he purposefully did anything to degrade the United States. He, like any president, doesn't have total control to do whatever he wants. His orders were delivered by lobbyists with deep pockets. Tell me Washington doesn't operate that way, and you are only fooling yourself. I will leave this thread and not disrupt the flow any more than I already have. Sorry to have upset you.

Rational. I agree with most of what your say. If you do not mind me asking, can you flesh out the bold section. Is this just a theory, or is there some type of direct proof? If you were referring to Halaburton and Iraq, I can see where the connection was made. I do not see it when measured up with 9/11. Two different wars.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
Originally posted by Orion7911
.......and you've evaded nearly 16 pages of that information, relevant questions to you, challenges, links to evidence, etc etc. Perfect example of the lack of substance or evidence and argument in your response is illustrated in the reply linking the PENTAGON FOOTAGE.
I ignored speculative garbage.


Then why have you failed to offer any intelligent line by line counter-argument showing exactly how and where its "speculative garbage"????????

are you really this inept at presenting even the most basic argument with supporting evidence on what you CLAIM? sheeeeeeeeeesh


Originally posted by Pathos
What you guys have is a theory of unknown origin. It could be politically motivated or it could be foreign motivated. You guys have created the largest 'gross' theory to ever have taken place.


So why is it you STILL can't seem to offer ANY intelligent line by line counter-argument WHATSOEVER showing exactly how and where anything you're claiming is true?


Originally posted by Pathos
What everyone is promoting is that:

Our government staged an attack on innocent people (9/11), so they can go to war with Afghanistan to kill more civilians, so we can justifiably go to war in Iraq to kill even more civilians

This is what went down and it was well documented. If you do not belive me, you can do the research yourself.

(1) President Bush originally wanted to go into war with Iraq. While making plans to attack Iraq, terrorists from the Middle-East attacked our country. Other words, before Bush had a chance to attack Iraq, terrorist of Saudi-Arabia and Egyptian decent living in Afghanistan attacked us.

(2) We went to war with Afghanistan because of a 'real' terrorist attack. At the end of Bush's first term (2003/2004), he used Mr. Powell's credibility to connect Afghanistan to Iraq. Tenant wanted to stay within the circle, so he cooked the original report to create a connection.

Since Afghanistan was a rational and logical war, Bush tried to use it as a spring board to hit Iraq.

(3) Once everyone got an ear-full of what went down between Dick Chaney and George Tenant, people started to become unsettled with the Iraq war. As more and more information was revealed to be cooked, people started to have small protests.

(4) Our pathetic news media networks started digging into Gitmo, and discovered a few cases of waterboarding. Suddenly, the whole war in Iraq was turned upside down.

What we are seeing is outrage about Iraq tainting the credibility of Afghanistan. They are two different wars. One justified war used to springboard a late (justified) war.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]


You're not very good at this are you pathos?

As I pointed out, You don't even know what you're arguing.

And your "argument" is answering questions and issues I never asked.

Its quite pathetic really... in fact its so pathetic, I don't even need to respond any further. You've made my case for me.

thanks for your participation



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Let me start by saying that the reason people come to these conclusions is not something that can be explained in one thread. In the 9/11 area, people are well informed and very critical of the data they use as evidence.

No one comes to these conclusions lightly. And like other posters have said, it is not without some angst.

I suggest you read through the material, and see how it is people came to these conclusions. There are many discussions and ideas provided. Some good, some not. But some very convincing arguements have been provided.

Which is why www. zeitgeistmovie.com is usually offered, as it puts it in a format that is easy to understand and lays it out.

So to suggest a one size fits all rejections is not fair. People do not come to this judgement lightly. And many have come to ats just because of this subject. And usually with a heavy heart.

I can understand the knee jerk reaction as to why a leader would do something like this. But there are many discprencies to the stories. And the truthers on ats are not alone on this subject. Even many rescue workers question what happened.

It in no way demeans the rescue efforts of valient firefighters, emts, or police and others. On the contrary, most want to see the real murderes brought to justice, no matter who it is. Many are doing this for them. No one should die under false pretenses.

I also believe that if the truth is real, this doesn't reflect on the republican party. I believe that Cheney is the real puppet master. And that Bush may have been strong armed, or planted. I believe that they are a cell, and in no way represent the ambitions of an entire government, but are working for very powerful corporations.

I am one who sits on the fence. I can see information on both sides of the issue. I have never made up my mind.

What brought me to the the subject myself? Well, I didn't draw any conclusions instantly. But when 9/11 happened, there was one picture that did not sit well with me. And bothered me.It wasn't something that could happen naturally within a collapsing building. I didn't understand why it bothered me till I came to this board. There are a few other things as well. But I am not going to waste my time mentioning them.

But here is the picture for you:



It was that column. How could a column in a collapsed building look like that? It is behind the firefighter. And it has come up as evidence on ats many times.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by Orion7911
And your "argument" is answering questions and issues I never asked.

That could be your problem. Your not asking the right questions about 9/11, so you are stuck in a conspiracy must have happened mode.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


So what are the right questions to ask, he-who-is-oh-so-wise?
Let's try a few:
Why was evidence of military-grade thermite[thermate] present at the WTC site?

How do a couple of fellas armed with mere boxcutters hijack a plane? (I would personally have kicked the a** of the fella nearest me)

Why do so many eyewitness accounts from the day in question include statements about possible bombs and explosions going off within the towers?

Why was there minimal wreckage collected from the Pentagon "crash" site? One would have expected at least SOME of the fuselage to have survived the crash. What about the wings, where did they go??


Have fun with those, they are just the tip of the iceberg.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox
But here is the picture for you:



It was that column. How could a column in a collapsed building look like that? It is behind the firefighter. And it has come up as evidence on ats many times.

I am not an expert on structural design. While looking at the picture you provide, I could not tell you if that is normal or not. From my personal experience and background, I do not see anything wrong in that picture.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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Question 9/11 all you want! But don't you dare say that Obama should have to reveal his birth certificate!


Are there any truthers here that are also birthers? Or is the truther movement just an anti-Bush thing?



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
orders were delivered by lobbyists with deep pockets.

Rational. I agree with most of what your say. If you do not mind me asking, can you flesh out the bold section. Is this just a theory, or is there some type of direct proof? If you were referring to Halaburton and Iraq, I can see where the connection was made. I do not see it when measured up with 9/11. Two different wars.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]


One of the owners of this very site went to Washington and had conversations with many lobbyists during his visit. He wrote a thread about it. I will look for it in a minute and edit this post to link it. Now his word alone is not enough for me to suit up and attack anybody. But thinking logically about why things happen the way they do and then watching them unfold right in front of you helps to solidify that theory. He was severely disillusioned with the whole process because he didn't really believe it was like that. he found out it was. As for my start into believing that particular conspiracy theory, I was very disturbed with the bail out money and the start of that whole fiasco. Everything had to happen in a huge hurry. I talked to my congressman, and listened to another congresswoman who claimed they were viamently against it. then when the second vote came in, both people voted for it. How could that happen? Lobbyists is the only thing that could have influenced that. I am not saying that anybody got cash for a vote. But you get promised a favorable vote on one of your issues at a later date, or help with one of your projects that had been largely ignored.

I don't have a web site to link, or a secret document to show you. I just have the information I was able to learn and cone up with my opinion from. Oh, and that is what all the other nut jobs were saying, so I had a head start.


I apologise for going back on my word to leave this thread, but I was answering your post directly.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by RRconservative
 


It probably depends on who you ask.
Personally, I thought GWB was an awful president, but I also GREATLY disliked Clinton and do not like Obama at all.

While I find the whole "birther" thing intriguing, I by no means am convinced yet. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where this newest birth certificate takes the whole issue.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by mpriebe81
reply to post by Pathos
 


So what are the right questions to ask, he-who-is-oh-so-wise?
Let's try a few:
Why was evidence of military-grade thermite[thermate] present at the WTC site?

I am not ignoring this question. I am doing the necessary research to answer you objectively. Give me a few seconds. I am listening and reading up on this particular evidence. You deserve a rational answer.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
Originally posted by network dude

you probably never watched Perry Mason. Ok. the way it works, is you won't know why I think the way I do unless you understand what brought me to my conclusion. Since you started a thread about how evil the truthers are, I kind of thought you were interested in a discussion about that particular subject. If you are only interested in hearing your own thoughts, I suggest a quiet dark room where you can hear yourself and no body else. It will cut done on the annoying two way conversations that keep trying to happen.

--------
We can play 50 questions all night; however, the bottom line is that 9/11 conspiracies are foolish theories without merit.


Yet you STILL have yet to show any evidence to support your CLAIM that 9/11 conspiracy theories are foolish without merit and false.

What part about PROVING YOUR CLAIMS don't you get?


Originally posted by Pathos
I am not interested in a re-examination of false evidence.


before you can claim something is false evidence, you have to have EVIDENCE to PROVE its false.

So please show me a quote or link or SOMETHING where you've PROVEN or have any argument whatsoever that what you CLAIM is FALSE???


Originally posted by Pathos
I am interested in the question about how can people believe in such 'gross' logic.


I am interested in how someone can be so dumb as to make claims they have no evidence or argument to support that somethings GROSS LOGIC.


Originally posted by Pathos
Have you guys ever listen to yourselves?


have you looked in a mirror pal?

we're now 19 PAGES into this thread and you STILL haven't even presented any argument or evidence to support anything you've stated in the OP and thereafter.



Originally posted by Pathos
Maybe you guys are correct about one thing. If there was no external influence, you guys have to be nuts to suggest such horrific revelations.
[edit on 5-9-2009 by Pathos]


may I suggest you schedule a therapy session for your most bizarre social behaviour? you really need help.

but perhaps its more simple than that... its pretty obvious you're nothing more than a troll.

And I blame myself for feeding this troll.



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