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Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

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posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

Also, I was never saying there is no justice. I asked how is Jesus dieing for the sins of others Justice. It's making a whipping boy basically. That is not justice at all.
I don't find in the Old Testament the concept of individual forgiveness of sins. There is a blood atonement, but that is more like a forestalling of judgement than anything else. This is why we have the Book of Hebrews, telling us that, what the Old Testament pointed to, as a taking care of those accumulated sins, was accomplished by the death of Christ. Justice was postponed by the repentance indicated by animal sacrifices. Justice came in a day of Judgement on Calvary to make an end to those sins. There is no other forgiveness taught in the Bible.




[edit on 5-9-2009 by jmdewey60]




posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:30 AM
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The bible is more complicated then how you mention it,
why were the wars foughted for over so many years ?
people did not understand, and most still have difficulties.

Jesus fulfilled not all the offers,
that's why Ezekiels temple was not ready yet.

The bible does not write our sins are taken away by god,
if we do not want to be one with god.

The bible writes a lot more,
the difference between the bronze altar and the golden one,
read revelation, read ezekiel, compare them.
The daily consisted in more then one offer,
there was a morning and evening offer,
rosh hashanah, when the trumpet will blow,
prepares us for yom kippur, when
the final offers are set right, and
the sanctuary cleansed.
It means a lot more offers.
Not all offerings were bloodoffers.
Burnt offerings mean something else. What does fire to us ? it kills our lies.
Jesus did not fullfill all offers yet and when he does, he will do it as us.

read isaiah and leviticus , god is one,
so yes god dies for us, and takes our sins,
but if you want to become one in christ,
you become one in god,
and you take THAT cross.
what does honesty do ?
honesty makes you a coward,
and god takes over and let you act,think,
the right thing at that moment of growth,
that's is god carying your cross,
but it is you who becomes more one.

faith gives cross.
mental cross which includes a practical cross.

'you will do miracles in my name,
but i will not have known you'
means very cleary namecalling can't save.

his name is one, act from one,
and you act in his name.

sorry for my not perfected english.

truth likes to hide, because it allows
all of us to take our cross.
God is One as a team,
and in a team everyone first has to know himself,
before he knows he can become the team.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 07:06 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 




Psalm 40

6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Hosea 6

5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.


And then in hebrews, it changes into a "body", aka Jesus. From knowledge of god, from open ears, into a human sacrifice.



Hebrews 10
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Jesus died because the world was not ready for him.



That's nonsense. Jesus died for the elect. He was the Passover Lamb and His very birth was for one reason.....to die in the manner that He did for the reasons God predestined.


Originally posted by LeoVirgo
If he came today, the one with the mind of God, we would kill him again. We are not ready to bring heaven to earth.



Did you give your comments any thought? Basically your stating that God, being all knowing and Soveriegn over all His creation, goofed by sending Jesus the first time because He didn't know that the world was not ready for Him.


Originally posted by LeoVirgo
If Jesus saves us....why does he tell us to pick up our cross?



Because people can't read things properly. You equate that passage with Jesus meaning that He is not here to save anyone. So you misinterpret a passage by injection your own preconceived notions and ideas into it but ignore all the other passages that say Jesus did in fact come to save sinners?


Matthew 10:38

"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

This passage, when read in its proper context, says nothing about what you want it to but rather it has everything to do with "rejection" and placing Jesus first, even before family but doing so will gain you rejection, perhaps ridicule but if you're unwilling to take that rejection (your cross) then you are unworthy to follow Christ. Notice the passage before 10:38.

Matthew 10:37

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.



I dont learn my wisdom from the Bible or any book. So you will not see things as I do. First...one must learn from the Spirit.

In doing this...I learned God never required anyone to kill any thing or any body. No animals-No man. Ever. Only the Spirit will show such things and its really does no one any good for me to tell them what I have learned from the Spirit because the path in itself is the reason answers like that are not written for the simple man.

Before I learned from the Spirit, which was a love much like Solomon describes with wisdom.....I read the Bible literally and made literal understandings from it. This path serves a purpose in its own right....but there is more to be sought.

The NT talks about still reaping what you have sown in your life. WHY?

Because you are not 'saved' by anyone. You still must walk in the 'way'.

Jesus will help, and he does comfort, I know this and have experienced it. But what he also shown me, along with what the Spirit shown me....was I must not pass my burden. It is mine and I need to claim that. Jesus made that burden lighter in that he gave a literal example that it can be done. We are not as imperfect as the world believes.

I am sure you are another who thinks it is a mistake we are here....and now we are just this sorry species waiting on God to come save his babes.

But I tell you, and will stand against what I say, we have a higher purpose and its not worshiping God in eternity. God has plenty for us to do.

I do not find that the verse you qouted changes the verse I qouted. You are to sacrafice your Earthly desires....evern so much as your Earthly parents....even in the end....Jesus himself did this.....he gave back to Earth what was Earth....he knew that what was of Spirit was returning to the Spirit.

Something that is not perfect can not be made perfect through something else. This would be defeating the purpose of us being here. Many refuse the 'way'.

You will still reap what you sow. That karmic law never will go away. Jesus showed us....it can be done....there are ways to loosen are shackles that hold us here. Through offering back to Earth what is of the Earth....which includes the flesh of all loved ones.....even our own.

The final question...is taking yourself all through the life of Jesus....and seeing why he did what he did. If you see it as God required for this to happen...that God needed someone to kill his son....then you will not see the offering of love, of choice. To understand that the mind of God comes here as a marker...to see how ready we are....then you see why we will crucify again. The mind of God will not fight you...nor will it fight the world....nor will it bring change by force. Jesus will never come and force a new order here. We must show we are ready for it. Which gets many peoples panties in a bunch because they think they are ready for Christ to return.

They are not.

But yet....it has begun....there are lights being born here who will understand...and they will also...show the 'way'.

My best...even though I know there is not much here that will resonate with you.

It is this simple...if you are still clinging to Earthly things...then you need the Earthly Jesus to die. There are a few that are ready...but they would be more monkish then anything else. They are very solemn souls.

LV



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 10:33 AM
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Let me share something that my mother saw in her visions that was very sad.

She saw Jesus trying to build something. She saw all of these stones laying everywhere and there Jesus was trying to build something.

She said it was so sad....because there was NO ONE....NOT ONE PERSON....helping him build.

Ill leave the understanding to each and their own.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 10:47 AM
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you talk love, because your care does not avoid to be angry,
(which is caring, when we use it to grow)
but always returns in peace ready to forgive.

love is not ingorant, it will hurt us, but afterwards it will come back,
and give us a sorry, if we accept it,
we will find ourselves,
and we will know we chose to loose, to win ourselves as one.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


Ill kindly disagree here pasttheclouds....

There are thousands of more years here to come. The catalysts of pain will teach many more. There may be a renewing...of the Earth...through a natural catalyst.....but the end of it all is not near. From what I see....this is my thoughts only. There is a generation being prepared to not only bring the light...but to hold the light here. This would be souls that have finally found the way and are coming back at will/choice to help their other selves.

You say soon....

Depends on what soon means. On a large scale...soon could mean 12,000 years. On a small scale...it could mean within the next 100-1000 yrs.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 11:10 AM
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life is not going to end, but pain is going to end.

why ? because pain has a function.
If the function falls (the lies fall in logic, lucifer falls, logic which is truth, which is god)
god will automaticly stop pain.

god can not hurt himself when it is not functional.
in this world god lives in a turn-around truth,
because paradox allow truth to be everything,
including what it isn't, but still being what it is.
I know this is russian, but truth is very difficult because it is simple.

it doesn't matter, you are love,
We don't find life by fear but by searching it's love. just like you are doing.

Figtree, When you see the leaves coming out,
time is near, your knowledge is part of this season.


[edit on 5-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


If pain does end...then this physical world will also. For it is the foundation, the garden....of learning from catalysts.

Unless it goes along to where we do bring heaven to Earth...and this is why I say...the end is not near. I believe there will be a time when the beings on this sphere will be able to do this...but I am unsure that there will be a large population on the sphere when this does happen.

Or there may be another sphere that the one's who still need the catylysts will be taken to ( I believe that all lights will return, unlike many thing that some lights will be lost). But I know I am always growing and learning...and this understanding may change, so I am always open to finding new wisdom's from others that are knocking at the door for the Spirit to teach them. This is why I dont quote much scripture...because that shows no one I have learned from the Spirit anything at all.

I think we are in agreement about pain having a function. I very much believe this. Not only our own pain...but others as well. And a soul may incarnate here just for this purpose...to bring a catalysts for another soul in order to awaken it.

I enjoy always reading what you say...for you talk from your Spirit. I will admit I dont always understand....but your words are always noted by me. I thank you for sharing yourself.

pasttheclouds....I would like to ask your thoughts on the wars of the OT. Do you believe God told those men to kill other men?

I like to know where people stand...so I can understand why they have the thoughts they have. I stated earlier in a post about some not understanding the wars....so I ask this question in light of that.

My best to you always
LV



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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you are right, quoting scripture is risky,
because salvation is not in them,
but in our hearts.

sometimes i do it, because i am making a point,
i try to show things, but god does not allow my
languange to be good, because if everybody would
understand, they will loose their choice.
and choice means you share the cross of god.
That's why jesus talked in parables.
Soon i'll stop writing in this manner,
others will take over.

God allowed the wars in the old testament, yes,
not because he is bad, but because he is good.
Everything in the old chapters are literal issues.
Why ? Because truth is from the spirit,
to understand the spirit, logic, you have to associate,
you learn abstract by comparing it to literal.
Kids grow from literal towards abstract thinking.

The thing is his law never changed, his law is
the blessing, not the curse, and the blessing is:
God is one, love everything, how ? by seeing (repenting) and understanding (forgiving).

This world allows a paradox, it allows logic to grow as a structure.
this structure is needed because it releases god from the structure

That structure was grown as evolution, as a plant, so yes, the past
seems evil to us, when it is not.
Absolute truth is free, because it is not a slave of a higher truth,
so it has to be everything, everything includes everything OR
a short-cut to avoid everything, because every potential means
forever god will be in pain in some potential. So source and the splitting
universes give us an everything that is really everything and make
god to be in pain forever. This world cancels out pain in the most functional way.

This is very abstract talking, and for most it is pure stupid.

Look, god is not evil, he made this world to allow himself to make
mistakes and to grow out of them, to avoid worse.
God breaks his legs to avoid them running himself in absolute hell forever.
But god feels every EVIL through us, and he does not like it,
even when he allows it. Some people think god is both bad as good,
he is not, he is only good. When you become one once, you step outside
time and it is you that is looking from above to yourself and allowing
you to take the cross.

Pain had it's function, it will go away.

Take care !


[edit on 5-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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btw, god comes down,
heaven is this place.
your lies are hell, your truths are heaven.
How more you grow, how more you bring god down.
when someone becomes glorified, he becomes one. end of the cross.

I am come in my Father's name, and my father is one,
but you will not receive me
When another comes in his own name,
those that speak divided,
him, them you will receive.

Relgions thinks this speaks about one person, when it talks about all of us,
before we grow. When people will start to shine, religions will condemn them.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 12:36 PM
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So when man thought that God ordered him to kill other men....are you saying this is God doing the killing as well as the suffering. God does all of this experience to itself....for itself?

And I agree...human language distorts what we try to say....so my question itself comes some what distorted.

I see the flesh as not being of the Divine...but yet filled with the Divine, giving life as well as truth. When committing acts that are of flesh...such as killing....I have trouble seeing this as God, but yet God experiences both acts because Thee is within both.

I am really having trouble trying to word what I want here.

The flesh body...that is not of the Spirit body...but the Spirit is within so without....the flesh body makes choices that are not within so without of the Spirit.

Even though God allows all of this...everything...to happen. I would have trouble accepting that the bad things that happen are a choice or order by God. So I guess I see it as we have 2 bodies and 2 minds....each both of carnal and Spirit.

But then again...I try to take the higher thought and view this from the idea of everything that happens is because not we our separate selves needs it to but because the ONE ..and to get to the ONE...needs it to.....but instead of seeing the wars came on as a choice by God literally telling man to go kill man....I have trouble with....I see the killings as a choice by the carnal minds of men...and in the path of their lives eternally that soul or light evolves from that by reaping what it sown and eventually comes to so a good seed.

Would you say that as our lies are hell and our truths are heaven....our lies are our flesh and our truths are our spirits.

Mabey I just need that separation thought for now of spirit and flesh....mabey that will change.

LV



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 12:47 PM
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you have to give yourself time.
You can find god when you always remember he is good.
why ? because what is one does not have sin

and what is free can always be free, so he is not going to hurt himself
for nothing. God made israel as both curse and blessing yes,
but the curse side is still israel and always repents.
it's not from where you come but towards you go.
He had to allow the structure to grow as a plant.
For that reason he needed evolution, so believes
could be believed in their right time.
the structure is made in a structure that is destined,
all the rest moves between it, as having choice.

There will be many more times of anger towards god,
but with your character you will understand them,
and you will forgive god,
and when you forgive god, you will justify him,
and he will justify you,
you will have taken the cross, and come home,
where you for forever will belong.

humans try to understand god from a human perspective,
try to understand god from his perspective.
70 years of pain is nothing compared to forever without.
He even made our choice blind, so by honesty we go step by step.
But this does not mean he loves pain, love is acceptance, it is not taste,
and it is not always fun. God rejects evil, and evil is ignorance.

Buddhism and spiritual religions have many aspects of heaven, people sometimes
understand them as for humans. Reincarnation is Gods play
forever. Humans have one life here, a in between in paradise (millenium),
and an ending with God. Some persons are faster, and bring heaven here
on earth. Remember the twin birth of the bible.





[edit on 5-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo

I dont learn my wisdom from the Bible or any book. So you will not see things as I do. First...one must learn from the Spirit.





First please know that while I do disagree with you I respect your opinions. With that said though I must also state that I am trying to demonstrate to you, and perhaps others, that there is a proper and an improper way to think. When we seek to base our world view or how we perceive the world to be, especially in spiritual matters, based on "feelings" then we get in trouble. Too often we leave behind sound logic, reasoning, deep thought and rationalization and opt in their place emotions and feelings.

Feelings are subjective and come and go like high tide. I am a married man but I do not always FEEL married. Gurus and mystics may say, "Trust your heart, ignore the mind" yet they THOUGHT of that with their mind and not their heart so which are they "trusting"? Many in this thread are basing their answers, in regards to this dilemma which "Grandma" finds herself in, on spiritual feelings or emotions and not a sound Biblical response. Why though does it have to be a Biblical response? Well because she claims that she is wrestling with issues in that area, in regards to her walk with Christ. Now if she had been a Hindu or Buddhist and was struggling then people would seek to give her advice based on such. Now being a Believer I am seeking to give another Believer sound Biblical counsel and then we have non-believers telling me and her what the Bible does or doesn't say in regards to this which I find very odd. This would be like me, a non-Hindu, telling one of them what their scriptures really say after they have studied it for years.

So LeoVirgo I hope to demonstrate here that great freedom comes when one is able to think, and think deeply, upon matters. Look at your above statement. You claim that you "don't learn (your) wisdom from the Bible or any book". Yet how do you then know of God, Jesus, Solomon and the Spirit?

You may reply with your claim that you were once a Bible reader and gained that knowledge from that time or period but that's not my point. You claim that you have now a higher, perhaps more spiritual awakening and this new found wisdom did not come from the Bible, or any other book but directly from the Spirit. Your view also holds that the Bible is then obviously wrong in many areas BUT you still use Biblical terms, such as God, Jesus, Solomon, salvation, blood atonement, Spirit, etc. but if the Bible is wrong in areas then how do you know these areas/words/doctrines are in fact true? How do you know Solomon or Jesus were even real?

Is it because the "spirit" has told you so? Well that's likely in your case but rather what it is is your taking what you want from this belief and that belief to fit your own preconceived notions or ideas of what ought to be. We call this "cafeteria theology" because it resembles a cafeteria line where the food is replaced with world views and beliefs. You take what you like and want and discard what you don't like. For example a person who holds to flaying saucers and that early people may well in deed be aliens would come to the Bible with the forethought..."I know the Bible must say something about this".... and they then read Ezekiel 1 where it describes God's "chariot" and they say, "There it is! Ezekiel is totally describing an alien craft!"

You read the Scriptures carefully dissecting those things that agree with YOU and your world view and discarding all of it that rebukes your world view.

Scripture declares there is salvation based on Gods perfect will. You deny it.

Scriptures declares that Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Messiah and Savior and through His finished work upon the cross those who are called and believe shall be saved. You deny it.

Scripture declares that Jesus is God in the flesh. You deny it.

Truth is Absolute, God being the Author of it. You deny it.

You hold that Jesus came to early, the world was not ready for Him. Scripture does not support that, you made it up to fit your world view.

You hold that Jesus didn't need or hasn't saved anyone. Scripture does not support that.

You hold that God never required any sacrifices. Scripture does not support that.

You hold to karmic law. Scripture does not support that.



So again you have cast aside what you don't like and only accept what "feels" good or right. You're reading INTO Scripture not reading OUT. Is that how we are to read all things?

We read things to grasp and understand. I bet you read the instructions carefully when setting up a computer item, cooking or driving to a new place because if you misread then you may get lost, have an awful dinner or perhaps have a non functioning computer. I do hope and pray that your mom and you are able to come to a better understanding.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by Grandma
 



The two main issues we disagree on is that Christ was the sacrificial lamb who died and whose blood made atonement for our sins. My daugther does not believe there needed to be blood sacrifices of any nature and they certainly were not approved by God.


Why does she not believe this and what led her to this conclusion? The Bible describes Jesus as the 'Paschal Lamb' who made atonement for the sins of the world. There is also much Biblical foreshadowing of blood atonement for sin. We also have messianic prophecies that claim by His suffering, He will redeem the world. So what is her reason for believing different?


The second one and most important to me is that Jesus is not the one true living son of God.


Does she believe Jesus was a false Messiah? Does she believe He was an impostor and another one is actually the Son of God. Does she believe none exists? Again, what led her to this conclusion?



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by TangoVooDoo
 


You know when it is the Spirit teaching you because things are shown in ways that brings understanding...only what one is ready for.

I know it is the Spirit for the cleansing of the body and mind I had to go through for Thee.

Know thy vine by thy seed....this is to be used throughout every that one uses to seek our truth. Truth will not be laid before you ever....like instructions for a computer set up. Our purpose is to seek out answers...not to find them in our lap.

God is in the flesh in us all...the Holy Spirit gives us our life and breath. I dont deny God was within Jesus.

Even if Jesus didnt exists....certain words will ring true for a humbled soul.

I must go for now...but I I respect you feeling the need to bring the literal Bible for Grandma to know.....even though she probably knows more then any of us about the Bible.

My best to you
LV



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[...]

Now, if you ask "Jesus" to kill someone in your family, will it be done? No, because it is not inline with those 3 things. That which you do which is inline with those things, that is what will be done


That is very nice... in theory.

Are you familiar wit the story of Peter, Ananias and Sephora ?



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia

The religion you know is that which has gotten it's place due to it shutting those up who talked of such things, Jesus included. If people didn't go along with the Christian religion, they were killed, tortured and burned in public - to remind all what should happen if they dare go against that. Christianity as a religion is a continuation of the way things were during the time of Jesus, the pharisees are still there, just different names. And those with understanding are able to see it. Now we live in a time where it can be spoken, and if you want to shut me up, you'll have to impose that on me.



Thats all fine and dandy, except there are people who talk with God even theese days, not just in the days of the OT / NT.

[What Jesus Christ did & why it matters]
www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

And they say Paul is legit.


This is Paul speaking:



1st Corinthians chapter 2 verses 13 and 14 that state, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned."


For example:

The meaning of theese next verses is NOT literal. They are "not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth".



1st Corinthians [14:34-35] writes, Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."


Here is the guy who says he can hear God give you an explanation about the Spiritual meaning of theese verses (hint: husband = Jesus; guess who the women are...):

www.youtube.com...


He says he talks to God, you say you hear the Father, yet your "understandings" are different.

Your "understandings" do match on one point thoo (but are different in many, sucjh as original sin and what not). They match in this:



If he gave you an example to follow, a lesson on how to be and an understanding of things beyond the physical





But then, here comes Paul - who you will always quote in response to me. Now we are told it's all about the sacrifice.


It is not "all" about the sacrifice. But Jesus decides who benefits from the sacrifice, this is why he says not everyone who says to me Lord Lord...

Iis explained in the video "what Jesus did".


Also Paul agrees with you on this point:



for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: 14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them ); 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.




[edit on 5-9-2009 by randomguy]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
and that he died and rose again is ESSENTIAL for our salvation through JESUS CHRIST THE LORD ..
If we dont believe this then we cant believe anything else in the word of God because it all centers around that one important thing .

[edit on 30-8-2009 by Simplynoone]


Pardon me...


Romans 2:13-16

for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: 14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them ); 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

I dont learn my wisdom from the Bible or any book. So you will not see things as I do. First...one must learn from the Spirit.





First please know that while I do disagree with you I respect your opinions. With that said though I must also state that I am trying to demonstrate to you, and perhaps others, that there is a proper and an improper way to think. When we seek to base our world view or how we perceive the world to be, especially in spiritual matters, based on "feelings" then we get in trouble. Too often we leave behind sound logic, reasoning, deep thought and rationalization and opt in their place emotions and feelings.

Feelings are subjective and come and go like high tide. I am a married man but I do not always FEEL married. Gurus and mystics may say, "Trust your heart, ignore the mind" yet they THOUGHT of that with their mind and not their heart so which are they "trusting"? Many in this thread are basing their answers, in regards to this dilemma which "Grandma" finds herself in, on spiritual feelings or emotions and not a sound Biblical response. Why though does it have to be a Biblical response? Well because she claims that she is wrestling with issues in that area, in regards to her walk with Christ. Now if she had been a Hindu or Buddhist and was struggling then people would seek to give her advice based on such. Now being a Believer I am seeking to give another Believer sound Biblical counsel and then we have non-believers telling me and her what the Bible does or doesn't say in regards to this which I find very odd. This would be like me, a non-Hindu, telling one of them what their scriptures really say after they have studied it for years.

So LeoVirgo I hope to demonstrate here that great freedom comes when one is able to think, and think deeply, upon matters. Look at your above statement. You claim that you "don't learn (your) wisdom from the Bible or any book". Yet how do you then know of God, Jesus, Solomon and the Spirit?

You may reply with your claim that you were once a Bible reader and gained that knowledge from that time or period but that's not my point. You claim that you have now a higher, perhaps more spiritual awakening and this new found wisdom did not come from the Bible, or any other book but directly from the Spirit. Your view also holds that the Bible is then obviously wrong in many areas BUT you still use Biblical terms, such as God, Jesus, Solomon, salvation, blood atonement, Spirit, etc. but if the Bible is wrong in areas then how do you know these areas/words/doctrines are in fact true? How do you know Solomon or Jesus were even real?

Is it because the "spirit" has told you so? Well that's likely in your case but rather what it is is your taking what you want from this belief and that belief to fit your own preconceived notions or ideas of what ought to be. We call this "cafeteria theology" because it resembles a cafeteria line where the food is replaced with world views and beliefs. You take what you like and want and discard what you don't like. For example a person who holds to flaying saucers and that early people may well in deed be aliens would come to the Bible with the forethought..."I know the Bible must say something about this".... and they then read Ezekiel 1 where it describes God's "chariot" and they say, "There it is! Ezekiel is totally describing an alien craft!"

You read the Scriptures carefully dissecting those things that agree with YOU and your world view and discarding all of it that rebukes your world view.

Scripture declares there is salvation based on Gods perfect will. You deny it.

Scriptures declares that Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Messiah and Savior and through His finished work upon the cross those who are called and believe shall be saved. You deny it.

Scripture declares that Jesus is God in the flesh. You deny it.

Truth is Absolute, God being the Author of it. You deny it.

You hold that Jesus came to early, the world was not ready for Him. Scripture does not support that, you made it up to fit your world view.

You hold that Jesus didn't need or hasn't saved anyone. Scripture does not support that.

You hold that God never required any sacrifices. Scripture does not support that.

You hold to karmic law. Scripture does not support that.



So again you have cast aside what you don't like and only accept what "feels" good or right. You're reading INTO Scripture not reading OUT. Is that how we are to read all things?

We read things to grasp and understand. I bet you read the instructions carefully when setting up a computer item, cooking or driving to a new place because if you misread then you may get lost, have an awful dinner or perhaps have a non functioning computer. I do hope and pray that your mom and you are able to come to a better understanding.



Hello again

Sorry I cut my last post short...

First...I do not take out of the Bible only what I like. There are many things I have come to understand that are very hard to follow and accept...like the fact I have to pick up my cross and do as Jesus would do. This is hard and I have not came close to accomplishing such...nor do I know that I will be able to in this life....but the Spirit comforts me in this struggle.

I dont take the Bible as all literal knowledge. Each and every thing has a spiritual reflection to learn about. This is the seeking of things that are not going to be handed to us...like the pearls to the swine. It would defeat our purpose if that was to happen. That in itself is something that I didnt learn in a day...but was shown in many different ways and times.

One of the first things I learned was God would not order man to kill...for God is the one that gave this law. So then I have to go back and have another look at those stories in this knowing. That in itself teaches other things...like about what nature was of those men that justified the killings.

I never said Jesus came back too early. The son of man can reach the point of Christ...and become begotten by the Spririt....this is the Christ....son of man having hte mind of God. When you see Jesus's actions...such as not fighting for this life here (his Earthly body) and also turning the other cheek....this is proof of him showing us to not only talk of rightous things but also walking in the rightous way.

Scriptures say many things...and many things contridict eachother. To think that the men that chose what books go in the Bible and what not....and to think they were all inspired by God on that choosing...is very risky...too risky.

In knowing that Earthly blood saves no one...I see things reading very different.

I am not one to say....that the Indian woman who embraces her great spirit is not going to heaven because she doesnt know god. God doesnt work like that.

I weigh things with their nature...not my liking. Many accept without asking...well I finally started asking and my life was changed forever.

Are you saying you trust the scribes? Do you not believe the Spirit will show things that are not given to every simple man who may not be ready?

I dont have to follow that God accepted blood sacrifices or required it....but I did follow that carnal belief for a long time.

Blood is of Earth....God needs nothing of the Earth. The symbolism is for us to offer the blood of this body back to where it came. The offering of the physcial body has a deeper lesson on how we are to live and perceive things.

Reaping what you sow is Karmic law....one way of the other...what you do comes back to you and you will have to stand for it.

This is what I have learned....I dont expect others to believe....but me sharing is something I must do.

God is about offerings....not force....sacrifices are forced. Jesus offered. It is a gift. A gift of truth, the light, and the way. But again...even this is misunderstood. We must walk the path.

What is it that you feel Jesus is saving you from? Are you not to own up to your wrongs? Even the NT talks of still having to keep the law and walk the path. How is that saving someone. Now I can say that Jesus helps show me the way, the truth and the light...through how he lived his life and his righteous actions. But I have to carry my wrongs....I cant enter the highest kingdom in blemish. By my walking the way, as Jesus did...I know then I can enter.

I am in no way ready for that....I fooled myself a long time thinking I was. It was easier, it was more comfortable. So by all means...the way I am walking is not easier then what it was before, but yet I now have a comforter along my path with me.

There are things in the Bible that say they are of Gods will...that I now know they are not. How does one show such things to another? They cant....as well as one shouldnt believe another. One should seek their alone time and seek the Divine nature while leaving their Earthly attachments behind them.

Of course one would claim I am mislead if they clinch any book as a literal word of God. But see I have found God in many books...many beliefs...as well as they all hold their own carnal natures too.

Many traditions that are in the Bible was in another belief system before the Bible. Seeing the evolution of mans understandings through many beliefs is beautiful. Its right there for all to see...but then again...will only be found if sought.



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