Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

reply to post by Simplynoone


who said that revelation is only spiritual ?
spiritual includes the created,
ofcourse the flood is more then spiritual
pain is spiritual but it's real,
dead too. this world too.

you warned:
Denieth (reject what is offered)
That Jesus (Jehovah is salvation)
is THE (not a christ) Christ (Christ = "anointed)

don't throw this at people who believe
in truth as one, or
jesus is the father as one, and prefer
to call this oneness God or Truth,
then some letters,
you think god is not righteousness and good ?
you think jesus was not one with truth and god ?

because then you are denying it,
then you deny christ to be ONE with his father,
so learn before you judge,
yourself.

people have different names, sweet names,
love names, but they are still the same person,
if god is one, then jesus is another word for
god, and truth another one for jesus

don't think putting gods name on something
that is divided gives you salvation, it doesn't.
and if you deny that salvation comes
by the son that becomes one with the father as father,
then you don't know that the son is the father,
and you deny what you blame others.

our god is love because he is one.

[edit on 2-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

There are many saying from the Bible that lead me to assume the spiritual wisdom is not given straight forward to all. Many say it is obvious what the Bible says through reading it literally. But many times it is said that the spiritual wisdom can not be bestowed on the simple/natural man.

Some say Judaism was a mystic religion. If this is so, then the OT may be a reflection in a spiritual sense. The Law could represent how this world works and how we are to over come this world. The Law does not ever go away.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. " (Gal 6:7)

"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." (Mat. 5:26)

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " (Gen 9:6)

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." (Rev 13:10)

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. " (Mat 5:48)

The new and old talk about keeping the law...if we COULD NOT become perfect, why then are we told to become perfect, why are we told to follow with our own cross, why are we told that we could do better things?

I think the OT tried to symbolizze the spiritual wisdoms that were to come

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Rom 8:13)

Why does Jesus refer to his father as God if he is God?

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

We can be in outer darkness while in the flesh

"let the dead bury their dead" (Matt 8:22)

"for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost , and is found" (Luke 15:24)

The word dead is not always talking about a physical death but more of the fact of one not being awake to their spiritual self, still clinging to Earthly ways and perspectives.


We are in the Earthly (lower) kingdom

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. " (Matt 5:17-18)

"for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God" (Rev 3:2)

How many of us are ready to stand up to every idle word that we speak...

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. " (Matt 12:36)

We are to discern two natures....spirit and flesh...we all have both and are made of both.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." (John 6:63)

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt 19:17)

Would God allow for a book to be written and the word not be clear? Sure, if it serves a spiritual purpose. What good would seeking be if we were given all the answers?

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: " (2Thes 2:11)

What is a natural man?

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

So often we see those of wisdom say they can not speak to others of spiritual things

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. " (1 Cor 3:1)

"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. " (1 Cor 3:2)

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." (2 Cor 12:4)

"For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Heb 5:13-14)

Again we are seeing words used that do not mean their literal meaning.

If it were so OBVIOUS...then why the confussion, why so many are claimed to walk the broad path and not the narrow

"For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]." (Matt 13:17)

I often do not qoute scriptures...for the very reason that I dont think it is to be taken literally all the time and I believe that Rome influenced the NT to some degree. But these are all qoutes that I came across this morning studying some things from this thread. Mabey others will see what I see and mabey not. Still...I felt the need to post them. I have more...continued in next post.

you are right,
except one thing,
glorification is the moment a person becomes one,
the goal.
all the other prophets (= son of man)
went up on that moment, except jesus,
so when he stayed he stayed as a face of god.
the real enlightment.

if jesus talked he didnt talk in his own name,
he talked in the fathers name
which is one

see god in you enemy, in everything,
and you grow god in yourself
that is the son

I do not find in the NT that it is every taught that we are not able to overcome sin...therefor...we do not place our sins onto someone else. Why would Jesus say to pick up our own cross and follow his ways?

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." (John 5:14)

Why is it told to not give the spiriutal mysteries unto the simple man?

"Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. " (Prov 23:9)

Milk of the Gospel and babe is Christ??? Could this not be saying that there are levels of wisdom and understanding? There needs to be purification of the mind and body (the earthly temple) before pure things can enter.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:27)

If everything is written so obvious, why the need to open the mind to understand the scriptures?

"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, " (Luke 24:45)

I believe the gate of Eden is within us!

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: " (1 Cor 2:7)

We have a spiritual body-this body is tied to the Karmic law of reaping what you sow

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. " (1 Cor 15: 44-47)

Ive yet to hear any logical explanation for certain scriptures from others

"I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. " (Ps 82:6)

In Deut 32:8-9 it seems as if (when translating by the Hebrew words) that Elyown (the most high) and Yahweh (lord) are not one in the same.

"When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance. " (Deut 32:8-9)

The name Jesus represents the Earthly man...the word Christ represents the spiritual man. Logos-mind of God-Christ....and yet we are still told we will go on to do greater things????

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. " (Act 17:28)

So many think we are to build an earthly temple with hands in Israel

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;" (Acts 17:24-25)

How does God reveal something?

"But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. " (1 Cor 2:10)

We are what are thoughts are

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee. " (Prov 23:7)

How literal are Christians following these teachings?

"Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (1 John 2:15-16)

So was it the most high that made this world or something else? The answer is confussing. I for one feel God, the spirit of life...in all life. In the wind even, the water....all things that moveth.

"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." (Mark 4:11-12)

So can we still believe that the Bible has been written to show us a literal message? Is there something below the surface that we see? Why would wisdom's be given to the natural man/simple man...who would shrug wisdom off as foolishness? Wouldnt this be giving ones pearls to the swine?

Some can be believers but not keep the Law (The way)

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)

"And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:23-24)

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. " (Matt 10:38)

What purpose would it serve to place our sins onto someone else? It clearly says to pick up ones own cross and follow (do as he did) Jesus. Why would we have to pick up a cross if his death served that purpose for us? We are still told the Law matters and that we are to try to be perfect.

Just some thoughts I wanted to share in this thread. It is easier to say Jesus is going to pick up our wrongs for us if we believe in him...then it is to really walk the path he walked and face up to our wrongs. Its not easy to face wrongs in our past...it is much easier to blame Satan or pass the wrong off as something that doesnt matter. But I say....it so does matter.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Hello Simplynoone

I quoted some things above and many of them are from Paul.

I think Paul said some great things!

I thought about you and Badmedia while reading Paul this morning. Mabey he will see some things that Paul says that does make sense...and mabey not.

Badmedia....let me know if you disagree with any of pauls sayings I quoted if you get the chance. Do you totally disagree with all of Pauls sayings? Or just certain ones? I discover reasons to not throw the babe out with the bathwater.

Peace to you both...
LV

reply to post by Grandma

I guess the one thing to remember is that there is only one way to the Father and that is thru His son Jesus.Stick with your faith,stick with scripture and prayer. Even when something sounds good,looks good,but does not require you to know Jesus it is taking you down a road your'e not supposed to be going down

reply to post by LeoVirgo Jesus said "I am the way,the truth,and the life. No one comes to the Father except thru Me.......

reply to post by kleah

I went back and read over some of the posts by your Grand daughter Leo Virgo .Grandma it sounds like you know the Lord and have a relationship that spans many years and has provided you a lot of wisdom,peace,love,etc. I just have to say as one who loves The Lord with all my heart soul and mind,above all else to remember that Jesus said "If You know Me,you will also know My Father. And of course again No one comes to The Father except thru Me.There is no way around ,thru or another door that will get you to Heaven. Keep the Faith and of course Keep praying

reply to post by LeoVirgo


My problems with Paul aren't exactly always what is said. Also, we do not even really know if Paul wrote them, people learn as they grow older, maybe some were written during a time when he was gaining understanding and so forth. So it's not really a personal problem with Paul I have, but rather what is attributed to Paul and the way it is understood.

Mostly what I see about Paul is that he is a politician. He does what I see politicians do on a daily basis. He praises the idol/symbolism, but then in practice contradict them. It's about the best dang lip service you could buy.

In the end, he appeals to the authorities of this world, while paying that lip service, just as a politician does. Even promises the free gifts and so forth. If not for his appeal to authority, and desire to be authority he likely wouldn't have had such a problem - something I believe the Jews of the time also said of him, although in a more direct context/event.

So like a politician will praise the people, praise the country, praise the religion. But then in their actual efforts and actions, they work against these things they preach. They will always point to their left hand, look at how I praised these things, but then in practice they manipulate for their own benefits/power.

As such, the politician will always say half the truth.

As I mentioned before, I learned separate of the bible on what to do and what not to do. When I read Jesus, I see what I am shown to do. When I read Paul, I am shown what not to do.

I am not to make myself into any kind of authority figure. There is but 1 true teacher, and but 1 true father. I will not become a political leader, a church leader or anything of the sort. By doing so, I am claiming false authority. If I can help one to find that, then great. But that is all I can do. That is something they must do of their own free will and effort, and the most I can do is plant seeds. If they water it - their choice.

But I see Paul setting up authority, becoming authority. Telling people he is their father and waiting for adoption, while at the same time praising such things. I see him doing what I am shown not to do. And when he does those things, he also contradicts Jesus as well. So I simply do not in general believe him. If he is true, how could it be so?

Either he is wrong, or he is misunderstood. But if we go by the understanding people use for what Paul says then he is wrong. That said, I can take some of what he says and apply it in a symbolic sense and see some truth in it.

Except for the parts where he appeals to worldly authority. Not much wonder to me how so many of his writings made it into the final "official" version.

But then on another level, I understand his purpose as well. The problem with that is it's on the same level where evil ends up serving the purposes of good because it lets us see the difference between good and evil, and to see the manipulation. Once we have learned that lesson, then all is good because we will no longer be subject to that manipulation. But I am the student, and that is not my path. My path is to see and learn the difference.

I'm not much of a doom and gloomer. I just see some people as faster learners than others. It's just a matter of what it will take for each of us to see and understand, and that applies to each of us in different ways, myself included.

So it's like anything else. If someone says something that is true - it doesn't really matter who said it. But how we decide if what is said is true should be based on understanding rather than blind acceptance. It's the understanding and meaning of it that matters. Someone can say "Jesus is truth", and I can agree with that statement. But then when me and that person get into what exactly that means and the understanding, not so much in agreement.

Originally posted by Grandma
I have been a Christian over 30 years and feel very secure in the knowledge and wisdom that I have come to believe from my Bible, from prayer, fellowship with other believers, seeking wisdom and knowledge. studying, and most important my alone time with our Heavenly Father.


I am 60 years old and what I have come to believe, I feel deep in my heart and soul. My faith has always fealt right to me and I have always fealt in a close loving relationship with the Lord, Jesus Christ. I had deep-rooted faith. The key word here, had.

Some of you know that Leo-Virgo is my daughter. If you know that and me then you know we don't quite agree with what we believe. And as of late she has been sharing her faith with me, we all have been there. We are so excited about what wisdom we have come across and want to share it all with others. I must admit it is exciting for me to hear the excitement in her voice and see the love shineing from her eyes as she tells me what she has learned.

The problem is IT all goes away from ALL that I thought I knew and now I am given new ideas to consider and to ponder on. Wisdom that turns mine and what I have come to believe and trust into doubt and confusion.

My question to other Christians is, how do you handle situtions like this? It's not so simple. When the other person bringing this "good news" to you has some truth to it that as a seeker of new wisdom you find you must sift it and weigh it. Then you compare it with your wisdom and find maybe there is truth in what she is bringing to you and it totally rocks you to your core. Who is right? What do you believe now? What wisdom do you fall back on?

Needless to say this has caused me much thinking and researching again. NOT only of the enlightment I have believed all these years and held my faith too but also I must cinsider her enlightment and does this have an impact on my faith and if so am I willing to see those changes and accept them.

How do you handle situtions where others who once believed what you did and now feel God leading them a different way and finding new wisdom, what do you do? Now remember this person is changed in spirit, a sweerter more giving spirit. She has a glow about her and when she shares her heart her eyes light up. The Bible says, "You will know them by their fruits." Can we both be right and on a different path. Is there more then one way to the Father?

This has indeed tested my faith and what and WHY I believe what I do and that is not a bad thing to happen to us. We all must be able to stand and give an account of our faith to others at all times.

Peace to all.
Grandma

Hello Grandma,

You're asking your questions to the wrong people. Look at all the various answers you have recieved about this situation, can they all be right?

If you're a Believer then you know Truth is Absolute and the Author of that Truth is God. So what you should do is ask Him, God. Agree?

Afterall it is not OUR gospel that you bring into question now. So again if you were to ask about this in prayer I am willing to bet that you would then read Scripture and perhaps read this as the Lord speaking back to you.


Galations 1:6-10 NASB

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.


2 Timothy 4:3 NASB

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

again fear ?

how can you leave the gospel,if you are searching for it ?
if your god is truth, search truth, and you search god.
if your god is one, forgive, and you forgive god.

reply to post by badmedia

badmedia:

You are right in some of what you assume. Some of what Leo Vergo shares with me has made me take another look at what I believe and why. I do see the logic in what we talk about and I have come to be not so steadfast or quick to dismiss her new wisdom and her understanding of the scriptures.

I do see and understand some of what we talk about, but I am still an old warhorse.

I want everyone to know that we do not argue or fight when we do disagree with each other. We agree to disagree.


Peace.
Grandma

reply to post by Simplynoone


Simplynoone:

My foundation of what I believe and follow is still deeply rooted that, Jesus ls the one true Son of God and we have peace with the Father because of his Son taking on our sins at calvary and we are washed in his blood. We are only saved through the Son.

Peace.
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Well, I can only say that of all the people I have meet since my vision and gaining of understanding, Leo is one of the few people I think has some real experience and understanding.

Now I am all about gaining that understanding and I make that very clear. What doesn't get talked about a lot is heart.

Proverbs 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

See, I do think you are foolish in your beliefs - but I do not at all mean that in a bad way, we are all foolish in our own ways. I am the fool many times a day for even responding to things I do. I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't, but I can't help myself from trying to show someone understanding. They can laugh in my face, but I can't help from screaming "flood coming".

But anyway, I think you have a good heart. I think simplynoone does as well. And while in many ways it took understanding before I started to "do better", a good heart will also do that for others. To where it's just plain out your nature to do good things.

In your heart you know when you are doing wrong and when you are doing right. You don't need to understand why, you don't need to understand that the commandments are a requirement for the basis of a decent/heavenly society. You don't need to understand the actual and physical paths we make in creation/universe, and so forth. Maybe you do understand some of those things, but those with good hearts do so out of their own nature regardless. When they don't, it is most likely from deception, and those who deceived bear that burden.

I personally believe it is from always seeing things from the other side. I know for me personally that is when my heart makes the choices. I can't help but think - what if the situation was reversed. What if it was me that was hungry, what if it was me that needed a place to stay, what if it is me that is saying wrong things etc. And at the same time, I know it is when I did not do that in which I made/make selfish and bad choices.

So I think you will be fine no matter what you choose. I could be wrong about your heart I suppose, but that is the feeling I get. If you would like more understanding, then seek it. If it interests you, then seek it.

I personally did not even realize that was what I was looking for. I was agnostic/atheist. I was just able to see the manipulation and evil of this world, and I didn't like it. I've did logic problems as a kid, and I design systems for a living. I understand how a system is working and such, and I seen what kind of system we live in. Beyond "us vs them" kind of GWB evil, but how men treated each other in general and justified their evils falsely. So I was just searching for truth and a way which how the world could act and not do evil things. Where you could have true and real peace and a good life.

And from that it just took off. Now I realize I was literally seeking the truth, the way and I certainly seen the light.

So when I see:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I am dumbstruck. I was like that is exactly right! But now when I talk to christians, they tell only tell me the later part. Only by "Jesus" and therefore the religion, can one come by the father. But I did not come to the father by "Jesus", far from it. But I did come to the father by seeking those things which Jesus says he is.

So I personally don't think I can ever see that is "Jesus" in the way Christianity shows it. The things that happened to me and the manner in which I found those words, the way I understand them is just way to much for me to throw away in favor of what men tell me, or in favor of what a church tells me it means.

I have never meet anyone named "Jesus", or any of the other names. I only know the father and I see the understanding of the father in him. The father shows me to look beyond the labels and beyond the flesh to see.

But if Jesus and the father are 1, then I do know Jesus. But how do I express that in understanding? I do not see this being expressed in the way Christians present it, but I do see it being expressed by Jesus.

So anyway, I think you are fine no matter what you choose. I don't want to trouble your heart. While I disagree with what you believe, that belief in itself is not going to overcome your heart or do you harm. But if you seek understanding then you will see much deeper reason/purpose behind things.

reply to post by badmedia

There is no way to fix the past, and if you do bad things you will still reap what you sow.

Since the past can not be fixed, then there must not be any punishment involved in your past actions.

But in the future you can change/fix the error of your way, and from that point on continue on the correct way.

Since there is no negative repercussions involved in you past actions, why concern yourself with any future actions? By doing so, you are fixing your errors and in the future you will not sow bad things, so you will not reap bad things.You don’t reap any bad things, anyway, according to your world view. Apparently you are deserving of good things, such as the ability to become good, despite your past, so why not assume you will get good things regardless of what you do in the future?

Also, there are 2 types of death. Death of the body, and death of the soul. The verse you are referring to is of the body and was instruction for men.

Instruction of principles of justice? Since you seem to not believe Justice exists, what is the point that this commandment is instructing us on?

The point is that the payment is only due to the father. How many people own a bank on earth has no relevance on the topic, as it's not like the payment for sins is due to anyone but the father.

Here are a few verses that show there are more than just one person in heaven.

"Acknowledge the majesty of the LORD’s reputation! Worship the LORD in holy attire!"
"A psalm of David. Acknowledge the LORD, you heavenly beings, acknowledge the LORD’s majesty and power!"
"For who in the skies can compare to the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings, a God who is honored in the great angelic assembly, and more awesome than all who surround him?"
"In a circle around the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on those thrones were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white clothing and had golden crowns on their heads."
"You said to yourself, 'I will climb up to the sky. Above the stars of El I will set up my throne. I will rule on the mountain of assembly on the remote slopes of Zaphon'."
"A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment."
"when the morning stars sang in chorus, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
"He judges the world fairly; he makes just legal decisions for the nations."
"Then he will judge your people fairly, and your oppressed ones equitably.
especially those who indulge their fleshly desires and who despise authority. Brazen and insolent, they are not afraid to insult the glorious ones,"
"Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left."
"You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, along with all their multitude of stars, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You impart life to them all, and the multitudes of heaven worship you."

Revelation shows what looks like a Senate, which is the Assembly of the Elders, composed of two representatives for each of the twelve Tribes of Israel, forming a Government."
God has different heavenly beings operating at different levels, who constitute the “Principalities and Powers”, including ones for overseeing the application of principles, plus the Messenger level beings.

What Justice?

“To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.”
“Zion will be freed by justice, and her returnees by righteousness.”
What restores God’s people, as seems to be indicated by the above verse, is a combination of two things, Justice, and righteousness.
"...serves as a double reference to both divine and human justice and righteousness. If it refers to both sides of the coin, these terms highlight the objective divine work of redemption and the subjective human response of penitence" (J. A. Motyer, The Prophecy of Isaiah, 51)

Since when did having a whipping boy mean Justice is being done?

The Analogy fits, if you look at the one aspect, that the person deserving of punishment should feel pity for the other who takes it for him. The reason for the such thing as a whipping boy goes directly against the proposed circumstances of the perfect sacrifice of Christ. The so-called, Divine Rights of Kings, that would not allow the young princes to be struck by anyone lower in status than the King himself, necessitating a commoner to stand in for the royal.
In the case of Jesus, he is Royal himself, and stands in for the common people.

It's completely the opposite of justice. The innocent person being punished for the crimes of others - that is not justice. By saying Jesus did it for you, then you are actually saying what you speak of and is the "end of it".

In a way it is, and in a way it is not. It is by faith. It comes through belief in a past event that is sufficient for us to be saved, and belief that Jesus and God will carry out the end of Judgment that will create the place for us to live, in the state of righteousness, having been saved. This is the final end of sin, which happens after the sins, transferred to Jesus, and payment paid for our part in playing out the physical acts of those sins, and the evidence for that payment presented in the Heavenly Temple, the guilt for those sins, being instigated by him in the first place, are placed on Satan and he is destroyed forever.

I'm saying there is a much higher and deeper purpose behind it.

What? What is “it”? Jesus? All the stuff about becoming better people is fine. It is true that we can not ignore our self improvement and the conforming of our will with the will of God. We also need to understand the evilness of sin and how destructive it is and how much we have to strive to avoid it and how important it is that we do that. We recognize it in the fact that Jesus had to die because of sin.


[edit on 4-9-2009 by jmdewey60]

Jesus died because the world was not ready for him.

If he came today, the one with the mind of God, we would kill him again. We are not ready to bring heaven to earth.

If Jesus saves us....why does he tell us to pick up our cross?

Could it be that those who are clinching the idea that Jesus is 'saving' us with his blood are not ready to let go of their Earthly ways and believe that they can still do wrong things because they believe they cant ever be perfect?

Blood is of Earth, but the blood is filled with life-The Holy Spirit.

The life of all things here is to return to where it came from....which is God.

I still stand by my Spirit....which says God needs nothing of Earth except the life that is within. This is why blood sacrifices were embedded in all minds of all people throughout all lands! The spiritual understanding that there is life in the blood took literal meanings to them and blood sacrifices were practiced everywhere.

Through awareness.....awakenings....consciousness....the life will seek out its origins. The most humbled offering was the Holy Spirit offering life here. Religions reflect this deeper teaching in the virgin birth and the most high God (Christianity was not the first nor the only one).

Even though there is many paths leading to the narrow path, we are like the workers that were given talents for their abilities.

Do to ones farthings they are here to pay and sow....depends on ones ability for understanding. 1 talent represents that one's ability..... 2 talents represents the others abilities....the 3 talents represents the others ability.

Even if one IS saved through Jesus....they still have to do right, they must pick up their cross and follow in the way.

Peace and love to all
LV

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think what Badmedia was saying that if you do not repent for your past doings...and begin to walk a different path then you did then your past actions...you will reap what you sow....the past does affect the future (in a very long term perspective).

Reaping what you sow is Justice in a very personal way that only the individual will ever understand, to each their own farthings to pay.

Even the NT talks of this but does not teach this method of Law for our ways of acting with eachother. For example....Jesus says we are not to act here on an eye for an eye....but yet better ourselves (FIX PAST KARMA) by turning the other cheek. The smiter will pay for their smiting....and the sower with the good seed is fixing their own karma, as well as bringing the light to the darkness all at the same time.

Bringing Heaven to Earth has deep meaning.

My best to you
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Yes, if you put your finger on the stove eye, it will burn you(reap what you sow). As long as you keep your finger on the stove eye it will keep burning you. As soon as you remove your finger from the stove eye, you remove the source of the burning, but the effects of those actions will persist for a time after. By fixing the error(removing the finger) you have stopped and fixed the problem and started on it getting better.

Also, I was never saying there is no justice. I asked how is Jesus dieing for the sins of others Justice. It's making a whipping boy basically. That is not justice at all.

a parable mentioned god pays everyone the same amount,
not connected to the timing when someone joined.

question is, what does a believer joins ?

in the end god is one, if we go to heaven,
we will become one ,
and one pays the same cross, the same amount.

God is very righteouss.
If jesus was one, and we become one in christ which is god,
who paid the price ?
everyone who becomes one in salvation once.

the thing is jesus paid the price when he was glorified,
and did a free offer. His literal cross was a teaching,
he died his self at the timing of glorification,
which was before the literal cross.

Humans have choice so they have to carry less cross,
and it is spread over this reality and paradise.

that's why there are 7 heavens mentioned as symbolism.

And yes, humans will crucify again.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Jesus died because the world was not ready for him.

That's nonsense. Jesus died for the elect. He was the Passover Lamb and His very birth was for one reason.....to die in the manner that He did for the reasons God predestined.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
If he came today, the one with the mind of God, we would kill him again. We are not ready to bring heaven to earth.

Did you give your comments any thought? Basically your stating that God, being all knowing and Soveriegn over all His creation, goofed by sending Jesus the first time because He didn't know that the world was not ready for Him.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
If Jesus saves us....why does he tell us to pick up our cross?

Because people can't read things properly. You equate that passage with Jesus meaning that He is not here to save anyone. So you misinterpret a passage by injection your own preconceived notions and ideas into it but ignore all the other passages that say Jesus did in fact come to save sinners?


Matthew 10:38

"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

This passage, when read in its proper context, says nothing about what you want it to but rather it has everything to do with "rejection" and placing Jesus first, even before family but doing so will gain you rejection, perhaps ridicule but if you're unwilling to take that rejection (your cross) then you are unworthy to follow Christ. Notice the passage before 10:38.

Matthew 10:37

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.