Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

reply to post by Simplynoone


Hello Simplynoone,

I know your heart is humble and kind and warm...and for those things, I love talking with you and respect you greatly.

I am not trying to get you to change anything about you or your belief...but for one moment...please try to see how Jesus's death was not in vane.

For one moment, enter the life of Jesus and dont consider his death just yet. Think of him being alive and well and totally conscious of what the world needs. What if he saw that the world needed a perfect example of love of the highest form as well as the example ends up being a way to show a darkness of people (the ones who wanted to kill him).

What does Jesus do with his life? He teaches mysterious sayings....many repeatedly asked him what he meant, why he said the things he said, why talk in parables. He shows others how to love the ones that were usually brushed to the way side, he showed others how to keep hope for someone when all hope seemed lost, he showed how to go within for strength when temptations were on the horizon, he showed us what a life would be like when someone tries to live a righteous life....he cared about not blemishing his light.

He gave the most perfect example of walking the walk....part of the walk involved him turning the other cheek and not fighting for this life here. Please read that again!! He gave the most perfect example of walking the walk...part of the walk involved him turning the other cheek and not fighting for this life here.

For Jesus to of fought for his life here....would be unrighteous. For Jesus to of not turned the other cheek when all were smiting him...would of been unrighteous. The understanding involves a deep love that is hard to grasp.

We were given two sides/two natures through the story of Jesus and his death. One, is from the light of Jesus himself, the perfect one showing how to walk the way. The other is the darkness that Jesus USED KNOWINGLY to show how a light can shine through a forest of trees. The understanding here is that this world is not a mistake for us....even Jesus shows us how the dark is USED to teach us a nature. We are to discern what nature we would like to follow, what nature is a part of our core being.

I promise you, Jesus did not die in vane. Jesus' life is where the lessons are. Why do you think so many times he talks about following him?? Following him means to do as I do....AND....understand why it is that I do what I do.

When Jesus saw that others wanted him killed, I am sure he immediately knew...there was no fighting back. Fighting back wasnt ever a option for him. Jesus showed us.....his actions backed his words on how to live and what nature to be. His death was not in vane....it actually shows he wasnt full of hot air about what he taught.

My best to you always
LV

[edit on 30-8-2009 by LeoVirgo]

HI Leo ....the point is that he could not have walked the walk that he did in perfection (heart mind soul and body) UNLESS he was indeed the SON OF GOD (the express image of GOD himself) ......no man ...(just a mere human nature man ) can walk that walk that he did the way that he did ...we make major mistakes we fall constantly from that walk ..And Unless Jesus was killed and rose again from the dead the HOLY SPIRIT of God (Of which dwelt in him fully)(and in us just a mere taste ) could not have been sent to live within us ..That is why it is of the utmost importance for salvation that we accept him as he is THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD and believe that it is only THROUGH HIM BY HIM DWELLING IN US that we can even have access to the LORD GOD OF HEAVEN.We are not just born again by UNDERSTANDING we are born again by BELIEVING that JESUS was and is who he says he is and that he did indeed EXIST and DIED and ROSE AGAIN and is ALIVE FOREVER MORE ....(THE ONLY HEIR to GODS KINGDOM ) (us as joint heirs if we HAVE HIM IN US)
As in POSSESED by the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD through allowing Jesus Christs spirit to DWELL IN US ...this only comes by believing and RECIEVING him into our hearts minds soul and body ..this is the TRUE LIGHT that came into the world (see the book of John) and it is not some light within (awakening) etc ..it is a REAL LIGHT that lights from the inside out (heart mind body and soul) it is the posessing spirit of him in us that helps us walk that same walk ...which we fail miserably doing but THROUGH HIM we will someday be as he is......


Some of you need to study more into the OT and the rituals the Jewish peoples were COMMANDED to do (BY GOD) in thier days ..because it is a SHADOW of what JESUS did and why he did it ...........and will explain alot as to why he had to die ......

If he didnt die the HOLY SPIRIT would not have been sent to live within us (writing his laws in our heart etc) ..and we would all have died in our sinful state (because we cannot possibly serve a HOLY GOD in the sinful state that we are born in ) ..............we are born to DIE ...we can now (by believing and allowing him to be make you reborn from within) be born to LIVE through him and with him for eternity .......................

The sacrifice was needed because there had to be a payment made for sin (the payment of sin is death ) we were going to our DEATH Jesus now makes a way for us to ESCAPE death (as in eternal death) because Jesus death and resurection swallowed up DEATH in victory .....no one else could have done this or would have done this EXCEPT JESUS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD ........who is OUR GOD and our LORD AND SAVIOUR >

Only GOD himself could do this and it was through his only begotten son that he did it
sa 63:5 And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
Jesus was GODS own arm who brought salvation to us ................


We cannot walk any walk without the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT Of GOD through JESUS (IN US) its impossible ...

it's true what you say
the payment for sin is paid by god,
but your god is one,
so everyone one with that god will pay the full,
it's that what you feel right now,
the care for the truth,
that is part of your cross,
that's why he loves you,
and that's why he loves people outside your version of truth too.

Take your time but put some things in order,
priorities...

how can you read the bible, understand parables that were meant not to be understood ?
by struggle...so don't excpect us to show you everything yet...

then, find out who your god is, what is the god of israel ?
he is one.
So what did Jesus really say when he said he is one with One ?
Why did jesus say salvation is not a namecalling, (you will have done miracles in my name, but you I will not have known you)
When christians say it is.

Why do christians say faith allows us to be in salvation and avoid works, the cross,
when the bible teaches us :
salvation is dying every day again = works = evolution to truth
how do we do this works ? by faith, yes , that's true, we choose before we see,
we choose our god of love before we see, we choose truth before we see it.

allow the doubts, honesty is the biggest commandment when you want
to see your god, which is truth, so to love your god, you have to see him,
if you ignore him, you can not love him.

god will allways pull you through every doubt, but he wants you to know what you believe, and because of that you have to allow doubts and logic to take over you.
only god knows, so stop being perfect and all knowing until you know in logic,
until you understand the bible.

people were not made to be perfect yet, until these days, but to try, to care.

i think i brought my message enough, people have to try to see god,

test every spirit if it comes from god = holy spirit = spirit of truth = god = 1 = ONE
Love God with all your heart = God = 1 = everything
Repent and forgive = see and understand
God = everything , truth, one
search your god = search truth

people who live in doubts, always evolving, they are the believers,
and the saints. they are honest, there is only doubt before you are one with god.

Jesus was perfect, just as you are, and everybody.
Jesus also became angry, he suffered, he loved, he was the most normal human,
we do not become saints by being better, we become saints by seeing ourselves
as we are.



[edit on 30-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
HI Leo ....the point is that he could not have walked the walk that he did in perfection (heart mind soul and body) UNLESS he was indeed the SON OF GOD (the express image of GOD himself) ......no man ...(just a mere human nature man ) can walk that walk that he did the way that he did ...we make major mistakes we fall constantly from that walk ..

But yet, Jesus says otherwise.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Not only does Jesus say you can do the things he did - he said you can do even greater things than he did.

Once again it's taking church doctrine over the words of Jesus.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
That is why it is of the utmost importance for salvation that we accept him as he is THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD and believe that it is only THROUGH HIM BY HIM DWELLING IN US that we can even have access to the LORD GOD OF HEAVEN.We are not just born again by UNDERSTANDING we are born again by BELIEVING that JESUS was and is who he says he is and that he did indeed EXIST and DIED and ROSE AGAIN and is ALIVE FOREVER MORE ....(THE ONLY HEIR to GODS KINGDOM ) (us as joint heirs if we HAVE HIM IN US)

This again Jesus does not say. What you are quoting is church doctrine. The understanding is not being "born again", it comes with being born again, and it(for me atleast) came over time after that point. I recognize that as what you call the holy spirit, but labels and such like that do not exist in understanding, but instead it is what makes the label that you see.

Being born again is expressed in John 14. Verse 20 says - on that day you will know that the father is within and so forth. That was the very first thing I knew and understood. On that day I knew the father was within, that day was followed by a gaining of understanding, which is what Jesus says in Verse 26.

John 14

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Notice verse 21, what does it say. It defines who it is that loves him. And what does he say - those who keep the commandments, those who walk the path.

Over and over he says it. Why is it ignored?

As in POSSESED by the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD through allowing Jesus Christs spirit to DWELL IN US ...this only comes by believing and RECIEVING him into our hearts minds soul and body ..this is the TRUE LIGHT that came into the world (see the book of John) and it is not some light within (awakening) etc ..it is a REAL LIGHT that lights from the inside out (heart mind body and soul) it is the posessing spirit of him in us that helps us walk that same walk ...which we fail miserably doing but THROUGH HIM we will someday be as he is......

This is the learning process and the gaining of understanding in John 14:26. John 14:20 says directly - "in you". It is that understanding provided which helps walk the walk.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

And through that understanding you can someday walk the path. But also, part of gaining that understanding is finding out what are the laws of god and what are the laws of men. If you look at the commandments, they isn't actually that many of them. And Jesus gives the understanding behind all of them in the law of the prophets. If you just imagine how man would have to treat each other in order to come about a peaceful and heavenly society, each and every one of the commandments will become clear, with the exception of loving the father which is unrelated to society and is a personal matter.

Because if you are a thief, your very presence makes it impossible to live in a society without thieves. Thus why we were removed from the garden to start with.

Just have to walk the path, and you need that understanding to do it. But it's not just about Jesus. Read John 14:24, it says it right there. It is available to anyone who seeks it. Remember, as it also says earlier in John 14 - it is the father who does the works.

Some of you need to study more into the OT and the rituals the Jewish peoples were COMMANDED to do (BY GOD) in thier days ..because it is a SHADOW of what JESUS did and why he did it ...........and will explain alot as to why he had to die ......

Well there was a reason Jesus needed to give people proper understanding. However, when you gain that understanding, then it becomes as clear as knowing 1+2=3 is true and knowing 2+4=1 is false on what is the correct way, and what is not. Notice he did not pay such things much mind? Why? Because he had proper understanding. If those things were really god's law, then he couldn't have properly fulfilled the law without doing them. Jesus also says that the scribes are not the authority.

If he didnt die the HOLY SPIRIT would not have been sent to live within us (writing his laws in our heart etc) ..and we would all have died in our sinful state (because we cannot possibly serve a HOLY GOD in the sinful state that we are born in ) ..............we are born to DIE ...we can now (by believing and allowing him to be make you reborn from within) be born to LIVE through him and with him for eternity .......................

The death being talked about for sins is the death of the soul, not the death of the flesh. Jesus says fear not those who can only kill the body, fear that which can kill the soul and flesh. Did the soul of Jesus die?

So the only death he had was no different than the death you will have(except of course in the manner of which it happens). His grace is that he came and did that and told the truth and gave people understanding despite knowing who's kingdom this was and what would happen to him. He was killed because he threatened the powers of this world. And those powers have stayed in power because of it. His death is what they worship because it is the death of truth so that their lie can live. But 1 day man will know and see that truth and when that happens there isn't a thing they will be able to do about it.

The sacrifice was needed because there had to be a payment made for sin (the payment of sin is death ) we were going to our DEATH Jesus now makes a way for us to ESCAPE death (as in eternal death) because Jesus death and resurection swallowed up DEATH in victory .....no one else could have done this or would have done this EXCEPT JESUS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD ........who is OUR GOD and our LORD AND SAVIOUR >

Well, outside him only dieing in a manner in which all men die, and the actual price being the death of the soul for sin. If he swallowed up all the death - wouldn't we be living forever? If he paid the price for all sin, then wouldn't that mean everyone is saved regardless of what they believe? If only a few people are saved, then he only paid the price for those people, not the entire world.

Which to me only goes further to emphasize what he says over and over - you must keep the commandments, and he fulfills the laws in order to give the proper understanding on how to do that, which allows anyone who chooses to do that to be saved. You are turning that into a ritual of sacrifice. Even to the point where all the emphasis is put on that rather than the path and understanding.

reply to post by badmedia

Well, I am saying one must keep the commandments, so that is hardly anarchy. And it's not even a change from the OT to Jesus, saying he died for your sins and it only matters if you believe that - that is the change. I'm saying nothing changed, the same order is still there, Jesus gives you a proper way of following that.
So I'm not sure why you are saying otherwise.

Seeing as everyone has already sinned, the Law demands that we die. If God decides it is within His power to just change the Law, out of compassion so we do not die, then the universe is thrown into anarchy, whoever has the power to impose his will, should feel free to do so, without restraint.
The first covenant was, "Refrain from eating from this tree, or die". If this was in effect, then we would none of us have ever been born. So another covenant has to be in effect.

Not sure how that is really valid since we are only talking about the father and there are no stockholders. The father owns the "bank" outright. So really your argument is "bankrupt" and has no collateral.

The highest concentration of ownership of a bank that I could find was a partnership between fifty people. If you were one of those fifty, the other forty nine partners would be asking for their share of what you forgave, out of your pocket.


[edit on 31-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

Genesis could be purely allegorical. So far my logical mind says that I havent seen anything come out of nothing...such as a man just apearing out of the dirt. I think we have logic for reasons.

Adam (mankind) and Eve (life) are the perfect one representing duality (the world we are in).

Physical/spiritual

I look at it as our souls are like embryos....much experience and learning must take place for growth of our mind. We must know both good and bad....which is light and dark-physical and spiritual....to discern what we are and where we come from.

We are spiritual beings on a path of growth....over experiences and opportunities.

Just as though mankind (adam) brought the possibility of 'falling' from ones true nature (spirit)....so does Jesus bring the possibility of 'rising' to ones true nature (spirit).

Some choose to read that it is a mistake we are here...all due to one persons wrong choice.

I choose to believe we are meant to be here....it is a part of our path of growing from a soul embryo to a full being of light without blemish.

The law has spiritual meaning.

There is also very good reason to believe that Jesus, John, and James were all vegetarians...and forbade the use of killing animals. There is one text (not of the Bible) that even talks of Judas reporting to the leaders that Jesus refused the lamb at passover but ate only of the bread.

I see the OT trying to use literal instances of the law and literal meanings of building a kingdom for God....but in the new testament....I see much of these meanings taking new form....talking about spiritual things (like the kingdom within).

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Seeing as everyone has already sinned, the Law demands that we die. If God decides it is within His power to just change the Law, out of compassion so we do not die, then the universe is thrown into anarchy, whoever has the power to impose his will, should feel free to do so, without restraint.
The first covenant was, "Refrain from eating from this tree, or die". If this was in effect, then we would none of us have ever been born. So another covenant has to be in effect.

Ummm, if you repent for your sins it means you are fixing your errors and mistakes and then you will no longer commit those sins. As you do this, you are automatically forgiven, because it is no longer an issue. Which is all that has really been asked of you in the first place.

Past sins are forgiven when you fix or change your ways.

The highest concentration of ownership of a bank that I could find was a partnership between fifty people. If you were one of those fifty, the other forty nine partners would be asking for their share of what you forgave, out of your pocket.

Do you realize what you are doing here? You are completely ignoring the entire point, and are implying that there are things higher than the father. What in the world does how a bank work on earth have to do with the father? Nothing is what.

TO GRANDMA

Alot of the replys here sound familiar with the what the serpent in the garden said to Adam and Eve ...
he told them basically that GOD is a liar and that he lied to them...

Here is what God said
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Here is what satan said ..
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

As of that day that they ate of it they were then appointed to DIE >>(according to scripture) now they must eat of the tree of life (JESUS)
in order to LIVE >..that tree was hidden from them until the day JESUS came and died and rose again ...

Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
[ Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


Many in these last days have decided that the death of Christ was insignificant (when in fact scripture (OT and NT says otherwise) ...
Many in these days have decided that the apostles etc have all lied to us and nothing in scripture can be the truth etc ....(and yet they think they have found truth in their own ways of thinking and in other ancient texts )
Many today have a pot luck belief picked from many ways and from many texts .........can all be THE TRUTH ? If Jesus said HE is the way the truth and the life then how can any other way also be the way the truth and the life ?
Its either one or the other NOT BOTH and not all (potluck) .
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(that BY ME means THROUGH him (he is OUR mediator) we are not the mediator and neither can we be ..but HE IS the ONLY MEDIATOR between man and God as he NOW SITS at the right hand of the FATHER (is any mangod (man claiming to be mini gods) sitting at the right hand of the father making intercession for us right now ? NO only JESUS CHRIST IS ) ....
Does Buddah or Badmedia or John Lennon or any other etc etc have the authority and have the SONSHIP to be able to MEDIATE between God and us ? Would they ? (Certainly not ..in fact just the opposite ..Badmedia thinks his own salvation will come from HIS OWN WORKS and his own RIGHTOUSNESS) this is phariseeism ...And is exactly what they believed in the days of Jesus ...(which was why they MISSED SEEING HIM FOR WHO HE WAS) >..........


Scripture also says that this would certainly happen in the last days ..
Now our choice is to believe the Apostles or believe mankind of our days who all claim to have found the way without needing the Lord Jesus Christ and making his death and ressurection of none affect (man thinks he can change himself without the power of the Holy Spirit which was offered to everyone upon the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ but only if they BELIEVE and RECIEVE that JESUS is the MEDIATOR and that they NEED THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in them in order to change ) .........(the people of our day believe that all they need is positive thinking to be able to change their lives and live in eternity after death) which is bunk ...positive thinking can only go so far then it is a dead end ....because there are other forces at work here (satan ) spiritual warfare ............

They follow Jesus as they would John Lennon (a revolutionist) not as the SON OF THE LIVING GOD ....they consider him as nothing more than a nice man who did good (by his own power ) (the mangod type thinking ) ...

What is happening is man is thinking that he is Christ (they think we are all mini christs) and so they make the CROSS and the DEATH OF CHRIST as NOT NECESSARY and as NADDA >........

When in fact this is the spirit of antichrist ...this is exactly what satan would want us all to think as he thinks that he is god and we are gods too and has convinced man that he is god too and is in no need of a saviour ....................

If man could do all that man thinks he can do ..you need to ask yourself then why is our world in this mess ? Why hasnt mighty man been able to FIX this mess with their positive thinking etc ? ...Because it is all BS >>..

They ate of that tree (the one they were told not to eat of or touch ) and now they are gonna die just as GOD says they would) ...
They think now they know good from evil (which they do not ) and so now they are as gods and they are enlightened through that knowledge (the knowledge that the world offers) so now they are saved ..BUNK ...

Boy are they gonna be surprised ....

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


Denieth (reject what is offered)
That Jesus (Jehovah is salvation)
is THE (not a christ) Christ (Christ = "anointed)


Every Spirit that CONFESSETH NOT that Jesus Christ IS COME in the FLESH is not of GOD ...I have heard many times on this board that Jesus was not the son of God but just a hippie rebel who did not rise from the dead (LITERALLY ) that it isnt even funny .....(its not allegorical ) HE IS ALIVE and he did rise from the dead (Which NONE OF US CAN DO without HIM )
The messiah came in the flesh (read JOHN)
And they KILLED HIM ..but he didnt die (will we die ? Yes if we do not accept him as our LORD AND SAVIOUR ) that come and follow me doesnt just mean be a nice person like he was (thats impossible anyway without his spirit within you ) ............


If Jesus was just a messiah (a type of Messiah ) then we could follow just about anyone (Buddah,John Lennon or even Badmedia) and find the way ..
And that just isnt TRUE according to the BIBLE >>..................
Do they have the power to RAISE YOU FROM THE DEAD ? do they have the power to DEFEAT satan ? Do they have the power to forgive SINS ? Are they the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD ? NO >.............................

Thats why they are still alive and still in their sins and still do not believe that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD and that it is ONLY THROUGH HIM (his Holy Spirit who he sends to those who believe and recieve him ) that we can be RAISED FROM DEATH TO LIFE >>>>>>>>>....(now spiritually and at the end of the world physically )
Any other way is of antichrist (mangod way of thinking) .........



Sorry if this offends anyone (your problem not mine) .....
Most of you come in here and say STOP PUSHING our beliefs down your throats and yet yall go to great extremes to try and change the beliefs of bible believing christians.....
And most of you say your not trying to make anyone change their beliefs etc and yet constantly your making posts (changing the truth of God into a lie) posting (pushing hard) to the weak in faith,the meek,the humble christians to TRY your darndest to get them to think AS YOU DO >>.
trying to change someones beliefs OF THIRTY YEARS is seriously MESSED UP if you ask me ...


Ok Im outta here ......enough said ....Im not gonna argue the same ole same ole stuff with Badmedia ....
But I truly do care about you Grandma and pray with all of my heart that you do not allow them to persuade you otherwise ..and lose your faith ...





[edit on 1-9-2009 by Simplynoone]

PS >..I am pretty sure that in the days of Noah they all told Noah it would be a a spiritual flood no need to worry when in fact it was a real flood ..I am also pretty sure when John the Baptist told that the MESSIAH was coming that they thought it would be a spiritual coming and not a real one (which was why the Jews didnt believe him and killed him) .....
I am also pretty sure that in our days they believe that the end is all spiritual stuff too and wont happen in real life ..etc etc etc ....

Just think about that for awhile ...............


Jesus made it clear there was no other way ..
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
BY HIM (THROUGH HIM ) and him alone he is THE DOOR (even though there are several doors you have to go THROUGH THAT DOOR through JESUS CHRIST) or you have the WRONG DOOR >.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(NO SALVATION IN ANY OTHER)

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

BY WHO ?? YES JESUS .....THROUGH WHO ? yes JESUS >..through JESUS ONLY do we have access by one spirit unto the father ..we can go through no OTHER BUT JESUS CHRIST .....period ...

How much clearer can that be ?


[edit on 1-9-2009 by Simplynoone]

No one is trying to change any beliefs. Grandma is a grown woman...she can think for herself.

I think its a great thing that I can even talk to my mother about my beliefs....she is a honest rebound for my thoughts. She gives me honest opinions and thoughts that I can think on. Just cause we dont agree on all of our thoughts doesnt mean we shouldnt talk about them. And just because my beliefs are not like hers does not mean I am trying to change hers.

What if she wasnt a Christian all of this time...what if I was the Christian...trying to share my beliefs with the non Christian lady....

I suppose then that would be ok....

I think its messed up that people cling to material objects for truth....

But mabey I shouldnt share opinions like that....since I might sway anothers thoughts towards mine.

People sure of their faith arent gonig to be bothered by others discussing different opinions. No one claimed nothing as facts here....its actually a mature in depth discussion of honest deep thoughts.

My best to you always
LV

reply to post by badmedia

Ummm, if you repent for your sins it means you are fixing your errors and mistakes and then you will no longer commit those sins. As you do this, you are automatically forgiven, because it is no longer an issue. Which is all that has really been asked of you in the first place.

Past sins are forgiven when you fix or change your ways.

If you are dead. you no longer are committing sins. So that is a good remedy. And fixing, If your sin was murdering someone, then the way to fix it is to be killed. Because you are not murdering any new victims, does not blot out the reality of your previous result of sinning is lying cold in his grave. What about his family who demands justice?
Num 35:31 Moreover, you must not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death; he must surely be put to death.

Do you realize what you are doing here? You are completely ignoring the entire point, and are implying that there are things higher than the father. What in the world does how a bank work on earth have to do with the father? Nothing is what.

You brought up the bank analogy. I was saying that any known bank would not forgive a debt unless all the partners agreed to it, or someone agreed to pay it himself.
What is the Higher Point? I might have lost track of which one you mean, but I am not intentionally ignoring it.
To me, the higher point is like a question, "if god is all powerful, why can't he command staus quo ante, and that would be the end of it?"
The short answer is; Justice demands it.
Sorry about not getting to it promptly. I am not blowing it off. In fact I am diligently working on it and would like the answer myself. I only got into the first part of your post. I will have to go back and look at it again.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Adam (mankind) and Eve (life) are the perfect one representing duality (the world we are in).
Physical/spiritual
I look at it as our souls are like embryos....much experience and learning must take place for growth of our mind.

This post I have no problem with. Souds like Origen.
I have a book in my library that twenty five years ago I thought was madness. It's, On First Principles, by Origen. The original title was, Peri Archon. According to this, archon means, first principles.
There is a Nag Hammadi book called The Hypostasis of the Archons. The Archons made Adam. The Great Archon comes in and intervenes when mischief is afoot. Quoting Mercer dictionary: the Archons determine to annihilate humanity with a flood, but the ruler of the forces commands Noah to build an ark. the rest of the article is at books.google.com... &ei=uLOdSs2gHouf8QaF76GwAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false
It's not in a format where I can just copy it. The point is there is a group of something called the Archons who originated from Sophia wanting to make something herself. I am not sure why they use that term to describe them. I have heard better explanations on what an archon is (on Coast to Coast but I do not remember when it was). To me, it would be better applied to characters like Sophia and the ruler of the forces. Syzygy is a conjunction. ". . .as Sophia to the gnostics was a divine syzygy of Christ, rather than simply a word meaning wisdom."wikipedia
What about Jesus? We know what he was when he was called Jesus. I doubt that anyone understands what it was, that he was, before he "became flesh". It says, The Word. It sounds something akin to Sophia, to me. In the Old Testament, Sophia claims to be the first thing created. Well maybe but someone had to create her. The Word would have to be the one who created her, according to John's Gospel. There is another term thrown about at times, which is an archangel. That would be what? a fist angel? There can only be one, if it is taken literally.
What I am proposing is that there are two female Archons, Justice and Mercy, who are twins. It has to be admitted that there is something odd going on in the Eden story.
Yhwh told Adam, 'At the time that you eat of this tree, you will die and be dead.' They did not immediately die and become dead. Why not? A dispute between Justice and Mercy, a little bit like the ruler of the forces had a dispute with the Archons who were just going to kill everyone. There were the Archons on one side and then there were the Forces, that would have been called in to carry out the plan. The Leader of the forces decided he was going to have some say in it, if he was to be involved.
If Yhwh decided to kill Adam, he had to enlist the help of Justice. When she showed up, she of course brought along her sister, Mercy.
Mercy said, 'I am not allowing my sister to have any part in this killing of Adam without having a say in it.'
Justice said, 'Clearly Adam was in the wrong and I demand retribution, as specified, meaning death.'
Some sort of agreement was made and some other entity would have to get involved. Mercy asks for help and the various angels responded. One by one, Justice turns them all away.
At last, the Word says, 'I would die for Adam.'
Mercy looks at her sister and asks, 'Would that satisfy you?'
Justice said, 'I believe it would.'
Yhwh interjects by saying, 'You do realize this is the archon of all Archons you are talking about here, the one who does the making of things and creating? There must be someone of a lower status who could fill this role.'
Justice said, 'No, none else will do.'
Yhwh said, I hate this and now I wish I never called for Justice.'
Justice said, 'Too bad. You called me and now you will have me. I will not be deprived of satisfaction.'

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Sorry Leo my posts were not directed towards you ..sorry if you thought it was ....I just care about your mom very much and hate the thought of others attempting to sway her when she has been in a very vulnerable state lately (being so sick ) ........when it is her faith in the Lord Jesus that has brought her thus far (in other words if it works for her and inspires her why would anyone want to change that ?) Especially now when she has been so sick .........

reply to post by Simplynoone


Of course you aren't going to reply to me, you can't. The only way you can keep that view you have is to ignore the words of Jesus and other things in the bible because they go against your own church doctrine.

You take things out of context, you quote 1 verse here, you quote 1 verse there. You don't even keep the John 14:6 verse in context, where it defines what "Jesus" is. Which is the entire reason you have to straight out ignore John 14:24-26.

You've now aligned the gaining of wisdom and understanding as being Satanic, despite your own bible saying otherwise. You would tell us that ignorance = strength, but Proverbs directly says - I am strength, I have understanding.

As if you haven't already eaten from the "apple". If you hadn't eaten from the apple, you wouldn't be here already learning good from evil. That evil is around should clue you in to the fact that you've already eaten from the apple. The only thing one can do now is finish the lesson, gain the understanding and make the correct choice(wisdom) towards the good.

Half the things you posted in your response aren't even accurate. Such as saying I am trying to mediate between others and god. What a bunch of crap, I say exactly the opposite of that. There is however a person who does try to do that in the bible, even going so far as telling people he is their father, and that is Paul.

The entire reason Grandma is even questioning is because she is starting to see the understanding in a deeper meaning. She is the only one who can make changes for herself.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
If you are dead. you no longer are committing sins. So that is a good remedy. And fixing, If your sin was murdering someone, then the way to fix it is to be killed. Because you are not murdering any new victims, does not blot out the reality of your previous result of sinning is lying cold in his grave. What about his family who demands justice?

Num 35:31 Moreover, you must not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death; he must surely be put to death.

There is no way to fix the past, and if you do bad things you will still reap what you sow. But in the future you can change/fix the error of your way, and from that point on continue on the correct way. By doing so, you are fixing your errors and in the future you will not sow bad things, so you will not reap bad things.

Also, there are 2 types of death. Death of the body, and death of the soul. The verse you are referring to is of the body and was instruction for men.

You brought up the bank analogy. I was saying that any known bank would not forgive a debt unless all the partners agreed to it, or someone agreed to pay it himself.
What is the Higher Point? I might have lost track of which one you mean, but I am not intentionally ignoring it.

The point is that the payment is only due to the father. How many people own a bank on earth has no relevance on the topic, as it's not like the payment for sins is due to anyone but the father.

To me, the higher point is like a question, "if god is all powerful, why can't he command staus quo ante, and that would be the end of it?"
The short answer is; Justice demands it.

What Justice? Since when did having a whipping boy mean Justice is being done? It's completely the opposite of justice. The innocent person being punished for the crimes of others - that is not justice. By saying Jesus did it for you, then you are actually saying what you speak of and is the "end of it".

I'm saying there is a much higher and deeper purpose behind it.

Im not going to reply to you badmedia because your impossible to reason with .
And Im not going there again with you about Paul .

reply to post by Simplynoone


Somehow, I suspect "reasoning" to you means I accept what you say as truth.

Reasoning

1. Use of reason, especially to form conclusions, inferences, or judgments.
2. Evidence or arguments used in thinking or argumentation.

If you can show me a better understanding, then I am all ears. I look for it in your words, and I just don't see it. It was understanding which lead me towards the bible in the first place, as I am a former agnostic etc.

Btw, if the wages for sin is death - is it not talking about the death of the soul? Because if it is the death of the flesh is the penalty, then obviously we still pay that price. So it's talking about the death of the soul.

But if it is the death of the soul that is the price for sin - then Jesus doesn't actually pay that price. All he pays is death of flesh, because his soul doesn't die.

If it is the death of the flesh that is the price, and Jesus paid that price - then why do people still die of the flesh? Does that mean that nobody has really believed in him - not even the disciples?

It doesn't add up. What does add up is he came to give understanding and show people how to not sin so they would be saved from that 2nd death, which is inline with the highest form of atonement in Judaism and so forth.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The second death which comes AFTER ALL are raised from the dead (White throne Judgment)
Those who know the Lord Jesus Christ will not be in this second death .
The second death is when those who are appointed to hell get hell ....
And those who are appointed to life get life (eternal life THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THE LORD)....those who KNOW HIM (Not just say they know him and talk a good talk ) .......................


Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Just for your info again ....I havent seen the inside of a Church for approx 20 years ...I learned what I learned from READING THE ENTIRE BIBLE myself many many many times (still reading over and over again so I get it all straight in my own mind on how it all is ) .........I have not ever been INDOCTRINATED with Church Doctrine.
So please get over that .......

We will either be appointed to death (the second death ) or appointed to life with Christ Jesus (No inbetweens)

reply to post by Simplynoone


Well, I don't know Jesus and I've never meet anyone by the name Jesus, outside once in a dream where I felt the person waving goodbye to me was that.

But I do know the father that is within him, and that is what I see in Jesus. Not "Jesus", but the father. That same father gave me understanding that I should not focus on the person, but instead what they represent, do and the message they give.

You say the 2nd death is what is paid for in sins correct? That is when it is decided, good or bad. But Jesus doesn't die in that manner, so how can he be paying that price for you?

It can only be valid that he paid the price if that 1st death was all that mattered, but it's not. That death we all experience.




[edit on 9/2/2009 by badmedia]