Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

Coincidence you quote Paul? I don't think so.

If Jesus came for that reason - then why does he say he has come to bring sinners to repentance? Wouldn't have have said "I have come to die for your sins" instead?

Wouldn't he have told the rich man - "I am going to die for your sins, just believe in that"? But instead he gave the rich man instruction.

What do I say? I say you must repent for your sins and that his life provides an example of how to do it.

More coincidence that he also says that those who love him will keep his commandments? Is it coincidence he talks of being the "way"?

Do I need to quote the number of times he talks about keeping the commandments, repenting for sins, and things like that?

So, I've found out that blood sacrifice was considered very low in the OT. I've found at it only even atones the sins people didn't know they did, or did unintentionally. But yet in the OT, the highest form of atonement is repenting for sins. As such, it is actually the only form of atonement in the OT.

Then, we have Jesus. Who quotes the OT - I desire mercy, rather than sacrifice. Who says I am not come for the righteous, but to bring sinners to repentance. He says that, not the sacrifice. That which just happens to be the form of atonement for the Jews. He lives in a sinless life - a perfect example of how to properly repent for your sins(repent = fix/change, sin = mistake). He is then kill for it.

But then, here comes Paul - who you will always quote in response to me. Now we are told it's all about the sacrifice. The lowest and limited form of atonement for the Jews, and he says this atones for everything.

Do I need to point out the number of times Paul contradict Jesus - sometimes directly? Where Jesus says call no man your father, because there is one true father, Paul on numerous occasions says - accept me as your father in hopes of adoption.

And then I find out, it is actually the pagans of the time who are big on sacrifice. So, again - coincidence? Especially considering all the known pagan things related with Christianity? Or that it was derived from a place where pagans are plentiful? That the version that is accepted and known by men today is basically only the books and texts/version that was forced onto the people? Where if you didn't go along, you were tortured and killed in public.

So I just fail to see how it is bad telling people they have to walk the path. It is a much more narrow gate.

As long as people think God Theeself left answers in a book....they will continue to cling to ways that are earthly natures....such as practices of blood sacrifices.

There is wisdom to be gained through former mans thoughts...but one must remember, it is MANS thoughts....and one must weigh and measure....that mans nature to know if the thoughts and ways our carnal and earthly....or have evolved into the higher nature of divine and holy.

I cant believe that people still clinge to a book that supports blood letting...and say that it is of God.

I cant believe I ever did.

God needs nothing but your honest ways. How great Thee is for this!

Show me somewhere that Satan should be blamed....and not the person that committed the act.

Sometimes a person needs to separate themselves from all earthly possessions....ALL OF THEM (even the books)....picture yourself on the Earth with only nature....like how it was in the beginnings. Where would you find God? How would you know there was something higher then you?

The mind can be tricked...to the point of even the mind creates what seems to be demons and higher beings. We are creators...the danger of being creators....is ....we actually CAN create things (within our own realm). We dont create out of nothing....we create with the start of a thought....just as the story goes for God creating.....

The part left out about God creating though was that there WAS "Something" before us...it wasnt ever nothing.

Can we both be right and on a different path. Is there more then one way to the Father?

You're old enough to be someones grandmother so you've obviously been here for a while, I dont know you or your daughter but I read your OP and saw this question- of course there are different paths hence so many different religions and schools of thought

The problem with Christianity is Jesus was a control freak- it's his way or the highway! according to him you dont even get to god but through him.
I call bs to that-

Your post is yet more proof to me that about how indoctrinating Christianity is - you are how old and haven't even had the thought until now that other peoples religions or choices might be on the right track too-

Christianity is so elistest making peeps think only they are on the right track and only they will get there- thanks goodness your daughter has made you question your beliefs and see that alot of people are on the road to god, not just Christians

reply to post by lifecitizen


Hi ya life!

There is a huge factor in my mothers beliefs having doubts...and that was NDE she had last summer solstice. The videos of her talking about it are in my signature. You might find it interesting being that you seem to be open minded to more then one path. What confused her was she saw things and was told things that didnt line up exactly with her belief. So after the experience...she started to ask more questions...and she actually started seeking within herself for the first time really.

I dont claim her as wrong or me as right...but I share what it is that I have found right for me on my path. Never has my spirit glowed and humbled me before as it has in the last few years of seeking out many paths and finding why it was that man believed that path.

The sad thing is about Jesus is that the writings in the NT might of been written to please Rome more then anything. They were looking for control of a uncontrollable people. I think the best thing to do with the man Jesus for gaining any wisdom's would be to read the parables. They go so deep and pertain to deeper understandings that are mysterious. I believe that Jesus was showing others how to live with a clear conscious...how to live and be one with others....how to be the conduit of bringing Heaven to Earth. There are some writings that are not in the Bible that talk about Jesus learning in many different lands. To me, from what the parables teach...this makes sense. So many times we see people not understand what Jesus was teaching....it must of been a 'new teaching' or at least new to that grouping of people because they didnt seem to accept what he had to say.

On one hand the book teaches God needing a earthly temple that will be built with hands...on the other hand...Jesus talks of a temple that is not built with hands and says the kingdom is within.

One of the biggest issues I have in the Bible though is that is teaches to not use ones own reason sings....I find this misleading many into 'following' and not 'seeking'.

Just to let every one know...mom is reading up on this thread...she hasnt been feeling real great the last couple of days and said she will be answering back on here soon. Most of you already know...she has alot of ups and downs...and I already know....some of you on here hold her in your thoughts....we both appreciate that!

My best
LV

Hiya back LeoV

Hi to your Mm also

I understood where you were coming from when you mentioned guilt- Christianity is big on guilt- is where the term 'recovering Catholic' comes from- very hard to move on from that when you have been brought up indoctrinated so kudos to you for moving on!

And I couldnt agree more with what you said about Christians following and not seeking- they're not required to seek just to follow mindlessly without question- think Catholicism- people were killed for using their intuition, they were called 'witches' and were burnt at the stake

Christianity has infiltrated every corner of our globe- killing millions of people in the name of god- forcing them to abandon their beliefs and follow theirs- where they didnt kill people, they befriended them under the guise of helpfulness then converted them- for the life of me I can't understand how Christians can stand up and proclaim their creator so loving and caring- hellloo- he killed innocent children in cold blood- they all drowned- Christians can argue they were only going to grow up to be 'heathens' anyway but that doesnt wash with me bible god is petty, cruel, and heartless and very immature-
Jesus himself may come across to some as being all about lurve and peace but that couldnt be further from the truth- thats only the case if you believe in him- if you dont you're off to a firey brimstoney death- how is that caring and loving?

I have nothing against Christians, they are free to believe what they want- it's when they start preaching to others on how to live their lives that they tend to annoy me.
When I hear things like JK Rowling and David Attenborough getting endless amounts of hate mail from Christians I shake my head at the hypocrisy- it's certainly not something I would want to be associated with- at the end of the day everyone has a right to believe what they want without harrassment from anyone else.

reply to post by lifecitizen


That's not really true about Jesus. He says - I desire mercy, not sacrifice. The OT says it too. Jesus is an example of what I was shown by the father in my own personal experiences. And it was not presented to me as "go follow Jesus". But instead, it was all the little things he says and such - I was given that understanding. I was pretty amazed what Jesus actually said and did - because it's a bit different than the way Christians present it.

For example, you say Jesus is peace only if you follow "him" and such. Jesus says otherwise.

John 14

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Bet you won't hear many Christians quoting that verse to you. So Jesus is much different than Christianity. He is in fact, against the kinds of things Christianity does and has done.

Gotta be able to separate the 2. Jesus tells/is the truth, no doubt about that. Now if we can just get Christians to recognize and understand what it's really about, rather than accepting things and doing that which is opposite of him.




[edit on 8/28/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by lifecitizen

 

That's not really true about Jesus. He says - I desire mercy, not sacrifice. The OT says it too. Jesus is an example of what I was shown by the father in my own personal experiences. And it was not presented to me as "go follow Jesus". But instead, it was all the little things he says and such - I was given that understanding. I was pretty amazed what Jesus actually said and did - because it's a bit different than the way Christians present it.

For example, you say Jesus is peace only if you follow "him" and such. Jesus says otherwise.

John 14

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Bet you won't hear many Christians quoting that verse to you. So Jesus is much different than Christianity. He is in fact, against the kinds of things Christianity does and has done.

Gotta be able to separate the 2. Jesus tells/is the truth, no doubt about that. Now if we can just get Christians to recognize and understand what it's really about, rather than accepting things and doing that which is opposite of him.




[edit on 8/28/2009 by badmedia]

Jesus is your truth, but there are lots of other 'truths' and many paths to god-

Not quite sure what you're getting at with that quote, - yes we know Jesus was doing bible gods work?
Jesus is bible gods son- follow Jesus or you don't get to bible god.
He was pretty clear about that- and bible god is pretty clear about who gets into his heaven- people who believe in him, and his son- everyone else will get what's coming to them on judgment day.

reply to post by badmedia

So, I've found out that blood sacrifice was considered very low in the OT. I've found at it only even atones the sins people didn't know they did, or did unintentionally. But yet in the OT, the highest form of atonement is repenting for sins. As such, it is actually the only form of atonement in the OT.

Then, we have Jesus. Who quotes the OT - I desire mercy, rather than sacrifice. . .

In the ceremonial Law, there is a sacrifice that counts toward an individual person, whoever is making the sacrifice. This should teach us that each person is responsible for their own sins. The sins are not completely done away with at the time of the sacrifice, but are transferred onto the Temple until the Day of Atonement.
On the Day of Atonement, the sacrifice is for all Israel and it collects the accumulated sins stored up in the Temple and removes them. (done by the High Priest entering the Most Holy Place in the Temple, before the presence of God) This should teach us that responsibility for the sins of the community are placed onto one person on judgement day.
Judgement day happened at the cross and Jesus took responsibility for all sins that had and would occur, and God provided the sacrifice, just as the priesthood would have provided the special offering on Atonement Day, instead of one offered by the supplicants.
We are free to repent and join the Kingdom of God and be united in a bringing together of believers and Jesus and God because of something that happened a couple thousand years ago.
We do our part as individuals and God does for us what we can not do for ourselves. God is Holy and High above us and we are weak and not capable of attaining the level of holiness to be admitted into the direct presence of God at this time, so we have a Lord who is a god and the only Son of God, who is our god and will be for a long time into the future, until we eventually will be perfect. Then we will see God for Who He is.
Jesus is no stranger to being god and has been from the beginning of creation as the representative of God's will in the material world. When there was smoke and fire and loud noise at Sinai, that was the Word, as it was before the incarnation of an individual person Jesus, who was the bright radiance of the Father, in Heaven.

reply to post by lifecitizen


I understand why you think that. But really that isn't what he is about. In the manner in which you are talking, he is not represented himself or a "man", he is being symbolic of understanding, wisdom, the way, the light and the truth.

What is it that really makes a person? Their name? Or what they do?

So what he is really saying is that you must do and follow those things, and that is based on understanding. That understanding is available to anyone who seeks it regardless of what culture they belong to, even without a bible. I just happen to find alot of wisdom in the bible. The true understandings about these things are as universal as math.

There are many ways to express understanding, and to cling on to the literal is to miss the point. I have the same problem with all religions, they teach acceptance rather than understanding. But within that literal acceptance, there is understanding for "those with ears", I think you misunderstand me. I can find a person with understanding and regardless of any religious context be able to talk about things.

When I find true understanding, I hold onto it. And I find that in Jesus, but not Christianity.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Nice story, wonder why Jesus didn't say that. That's the problem, Jesus doesn't say those things at all, and says things contrary to them. It's only Paul that says those kinds of things.

reply to post by Simplynoone


you scare someone from the truth by fear of loosing salvation ?

that means every salvation is based on selfishness,
me without the others.

maybe truth was not know yet, and jesus loved the lost sheep,
so you can't loose truth if you do not know it yet.

truth is evolving, and sometimes you evolve wrong,
truth is honest.

honesty and love is what brings you to god.
god is one, your scriptures.
so love all.
by understanding = forgiveness.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by badmedia

 

So, I've found out that blood sacrifice was considered very low in the OT. I've found at it only even atones the sins people didn't know they did, or did unintentionally. But yet in the OT, the highest form of atonement is repenting for sins. As such, it is actually the only form of atonement in the OT.

Then, we have Jesus. Who quotes the OT - I desire mercy, rather than sacrifice. . .

In the ceremonial Law, there is a sacrifice that counts toward an individual person, whoever is making the sacrifice. This should teach us that each person is responsible for their own sins. The sins are not completely done away with at the time of the sacrifice, but are transferred onto the Temple until the Day of Atonement.
On the Day of Atonement, the sacrifice is for all Israel and it collects the accumulated sins stored up in the Temple and removes them. (done by the High Priest entering the Most Holy Place in the Temple, before the presence of God) This should teach us that responsibility for the sins of the community are placed onto one person on judgement day.
Judgement day happened at the cross and Jesus took responsibility for all sins that had and would occur, and God provided the sacrifice, just as the priesthood would have provided the special offering on Atonement Day, instead of one offered by the supplicants.
We are free to repent and join the Kingdom of God and be united in a bringing together of believers and Jesus and God because of something that happened a couple thousand years ago.
We do our part as individuals and God does for us what we can not do for ourselves. God is Holy and High above us and we are weak and not capable of attaining the level of holiness to be admitted into the direct presence of God at this time, so we have a Lord who is a god and the only Son of God, who is our god and will be for a long time into the future, until we eventually will be perfect. Then we will see God for Who He is.
Jesus is no stranger to being god and has been from the beginning of creation as the representative of God's will in the material world. When there was smoke and fire and loud noise at Sinai, that was the Word, as it was before the incarnation of an individual person Jesus, who was the bright radiance of the Father, in Heaven.

Just listen to what you are saying...you are limiting God.

You say that sins were stored up and the priest had to enter and make atonement for those sins being 'stored' in the temple.

In your quite time with God...just ask Thee....Did you ever need a earthly temple for sins to be stored in....did you ever need a priest to be a middle man between people and God.

If you use your own reasoning and intuition things may come out differently. If you only 'follow' then of course you going to see God with limits.

To think that way back then...a man couldnt kneel before Thee in their own personal space and come to God with an honest heart and mind...that there wouldnt be forgiveness.....is limiting God.

well,

the ceremonial law contains things that are for real,
actually everything.

but not in the way they were read before.

to understand it you have to understand spiritual meaning...

man = spriritual
woman = created
child = coming together of both as son,
son is there when you gave god all freedom, so he sets you free from lie.
grows up gets a new child = becoming one with father

woman with a woman = creation with creation = lie
man with a man = seeing part of ONE as bad, spirituals with sprituals

etc etc

offers are real too,
burnt offering = by fire you become one
after water made you repenting...
fire burns your lies away, you end being created, you become created from the spirit
= glorifications.
the fat gets used etc etc

the law is perfectly perfect.
but it speaks only love. as one.







[edit on 29-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by LeoVirgo
I don't see it as limiting. Man is limited. He can only do so much, and God wanted people to use the time and energy that they had (for religious activities), in a way that would be instructive of a higher concept. There was a spiritual model that the earthly tabernacle was patterned after. The yearly calender of ritual was representative of the process of salvation. (Sacrifice without true repentance would have been worthless.)
Early on, since the expulsion from Eden, man was asking for forgiveness and it was granted on a provisional bases, meaning on the condition that a future event would eradicate the sins that were being forgiven. The bill (to quote Paul) for those sins are torn up upon payment.
The daily sacrifice would represent the individual repentance and asking for forgiveness and the end of calender events of the Day of Atonement would represent the final destruction of the existence of those sins, and the penalties associated with them, by Jesus' work, on the cross, on our behalf.


[edit on 29-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


You are limiting the father because you are saying that the father needs those thing in order to forgive sin. That the only way the father could forgive sins was to pay a "bill". But it is to the father that the bill is owed to in the first place.

It's like saying a bank must kill their son in order to forgive money you owe them. As that money is owed to a bank in the first place, the bank can forgive that debt without any other actions than to do that.

Repenting for sins is the only real form of atonement for sins in the OT, Jesus says he has come for that purpose. He doesn't say I am come to die for your sins, he says I am come to bring sinners to repentance. And that actually makes sense because he is showing them how to "pay their bills".

Since one must actually repent for their sins, then it's not just something the father could just do. Because it requires things on your part. And so you are given a perfect example on how to do that. Jesus is needed in that capacity, and if you believe and follow that example then you are repenting for your sins and so forth.

It is in line with the OT, where as the sacrifice you mention is not. The sacrifice of Jesus bit is a manipulation designed to keep people from actually walking the path. Who benefits from that?

In what you say you are completely ignoring many of the things Jesus says and does. As well as ignoring the fact that Jesus never says anything close to that. You can only ever quote Paul, who came after Jesus, was warned of and contradicts Jesus. He wasn't even in agreement with the disciples.

Why can't you quote Jesus about these things? Why do you ignore where Jesus says the opposite?

Hosea 8

11Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

12I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.

13They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

14For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

Sad that people such as yourself treat Jesus as your own personal whipping boy.


[edit on 8/29/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

You are limiting the father because you are saying that the father needs those thing in order to forgive sin. That the only way the father could forgive sins was to pay a "bill". But it is to the father that the bill is owed to in the first place.

So what if I am? Do you believe in anarchy? Whatever you can get away with, goes? The fact that you have the power to do something justifies you doing it? There is no higher concept than your desire and your ability to satisfy it? I do not mean you, unless you are god. What I mean is god is capricious or He follows an order, let's say for example, the order of the universe.

It's like saying a bank must kill their son in order to forgive money you owe them. As that money is owed to a bank in the first place, the bank can forgive that debt without any other actions than to do that.

You don't think the stockholders would have anything to say about that? Somebody pays. If the bank provided a load and the lender defaults on it, someone is going to have to pay for it. Let's say you are the bank president and you just forgive a debt. The owners of the bank will demand you pay it.

Repenting for sins is the only real form of atonement for sins in the OT, Jesus says he has come for that purpose. He doesn't say I am come to die for your sins, he says I am come to bring sinners to repentance. And that actually makes sense because he is showing them how to "pay their bills".

We do not have magical powers to put our sins on an animal, then kill it and thus do away with the sin. This is not Disney. The only thing we can do is demonstrate our recognition of our own sinning and being sorry for it. The actual sacrifice is a lesson to us how horrible the crime of sin is. The Old Testament practitioner of sacrifice does a ritual that should point to and add significance to the real sacrifice it represents, which was the Son of God.

Since one must actually repent for their sins, then it's not just something the father could just do. Because it requires things on your part. And so you are given a perfect example on how to do that. Jesus is needed in that capacity, and if you believe and follow that example then you are repenting for your sins and so forth.

If you repent, the word would mean that you are turning around. If you are going in one direction, following sin, then to turn around, you need to follow the path of righteousness. Jesus was righteous himself, so we would be on a path that should make us become more like him.
That being said, I can not think of any specifics from the Gospel that I could copy myself. If you can think of an action he did that you would think was good, (that you can do specifically) let me know what that is.
My point is that the purpose for Jesus coming to earth was not to be an example. Not an example for us, anyway, unless it is meant as an example of what God is about.

It is in line with the OT, where as the sacrifice you mention is not. The sacrifice of Jesus bit is a manipulation designed to keep people from actually walking the path. Who benefits from that?

As in the great manipulator, Paul? He wanted people to get away from the habit of thinking there was any further value in sacrificing animals.
I am not sure what you mean about benefiting unless you mean a government subsidized institution calling itself "The Church". They carry the thing too far, so they can pass out pieces of Jesus to who they decide are worthy. It is a marketplace and obviously directly against what Jesus was trying to do.

In what you say you are completely ignoring many of the things Jesus says and does. As well as ignoring the fact that Jesus never says anything close to that. You can only ever quote Paul, who came after Jesus, was warned of and contradicts Jesus. He wasn't even in agreement with the disciples.

Jesus was the reality that the ceremonial law was an inferior image of. So why would Jesus be expounding on the merits of animal sacrifice. There is the conspicuous absence of a lamb in his passover supper. I realize there is a controversy about this with people obsessed with counting days and things. He called it a passover and according to whatever method he used to calculate it, it was to him the passover.

Why can't you quote Jesus about these things? Why do you ignore where Jesus says the opposite?

What? What does he say? I don't know what you mean so I can not be ignoring it. If you have a specific quote, feel free to cite it.

Hosea 8
11Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
12I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.
14For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

Last time I checked, Hosea was in the Old Testament.
This was talking about how the cities each built their own temples and alters to the neglect of the "real" temple in Jerusalem.

Sad that people such as yourself treat Jesus as your own personal whipping boy.

We did not invent the crucifixion as a way to avoid being good. I realize people have abused it, like in buying indulgences. Just because the profiteers of Christianity have perverted the belief in a saviour does not mean every Christian is believing out of a perverse desire to continue indulging sick pleasures.
Many Christians are devout believers in the Father and lead good and giving lives. Believing in an external salvation does not prevent real believers from being good but should free us from the bondage of trying to be good for rewards.


[edit on 30-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by badmedia

 

You are limiting the father because you are saying that the father needs those thing in order to forgive sin. That the only way the father could forgive sins was to pay a "bill". But it is to the father that the bill is owed to in the first place.

So what if I am? Do you believe in anarchy? Whatever you can get away with, goes? The fact that you have the power to do something justifies you doing it? There is no higher concept than your desire and your ability to satisfy it? I do not mean you, unless you are god. What I mean is god is capricious or He follows an order, let's say for example, the order of the universe.

Well, I am saying one must keep the commandments, so that is hardly anarchy. And it's not even a change from the OT to Jesus, saying he died for your sins and it only matters if you believe that - that is the change. I'm saying nothing changed, the same order is still there, Jesus gives you a proper way of following that.

So I'm not sure why you are saying otherwise.

You don't think the stockholders would have anything to say about that? Somebody pays. If the bank provided a load and the lender defaults on it, someone is going to have to pay for it. Let's say you are the bank president and you just forgive a debt. The owners of the bank will demand you pay it.

Not sure how that is really valid since we are only talking about the father and there are no stockholders. The father owns the "bank" outright. So really your argument is "bankrupt" and has no collateral.

We do not have magical powers to put our sins on an animal, then kill it and thus do away with the sin. This is not Disney. The only thing we can do is demonstrate our recognition of our own sinning and being sorry for it. The actual sacrifice is a lesson to us how horrible the crime of sin is. The Old Testament practitioner of sacrifice does a ritual that should point to and add significance to the real sacrifice it represents, which was the Son of God.

Well, I do agree there is no value in the sacrifice, and that at best it was about something else. However, there are 3 forms of atonement in the OT according to that Jewish Rabbi(who I think would know, and I did look up the verses he quoted). The least of them is the sacrifice of animals, and it only atoned for the kinds of sins you were unaware of committing. So it did not even atone for breaking the commandments and things like that if you knew you did it.

The whole representing it stuff is just 100% pure bull and you know it. All you are doing is reverse printing Jesus onto things in the OT. That is manipulation, where does the bible even say anything like that?

If you repent, the word would mean that you are turning around. If you are going in one direction, following sin, then to turn around, you need to follow the path of righteousness. Jesus was righteous himself, so we would be on a path that should make us become more like him.

That being said, I can not think of any specifics from the Gospel that I could copy myself. If you can think of an action he did that you would think was good, (that you can do specifically) l let me know what that is.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

You have to seek/follow wisdom and understanding, and then you will know. Those are the 2 things that call out and light up the way. Doing it doesn't mean you have to go and be crucified or anything, it means keep the commandments.

You can believe that stuff about the sacrifice all you want, but you will still have to walk the path, and you need wisdom and understanding to do that(which comes from the father/holy spirit).

My point is that the purpose for Jesus coming to earth was not to be an example. Not an example for us, anyway, unless it is meant as an example of what God is about.

It is an example of how to properly keep the commandments. He gives understanding(parables) in order to show people and so forth. When he says let those with ears hear, he is talking about those looking for understanding. Look at Proverbs 8 and 9 that I quote all the time. Read the entire chapters. Notice the house building, the wine, bread, table and so forth?

He comes to bring understanding as is needed to follow the commandments, repent for sins and from that one is saved. By fulfilling the laws, he provides example and understanding on how one can also do that. Which is why he makes such a big deal about keeping the commandments and following him. Following him on that path.

And he talks about those who just give him lip service, but their heart is far. Because they just praise Jesus but do not walk the path as needed.

As in the great manipulator, Paul? He wanted people to get away from the habit of thinking there was any further value in sacrificing animals.
I am not sure what you mean about benefiting unless you mean a government subsidized institution calling itself "The Church". They carry the thing too far, so they can pass out pieces of Jesus to who they decide are worthy. It is a marketplace and obviously directly against what Jesus was trying to do.

There is no value in animal sacrifice. It was actually looked down on a good bit in the OT and people were told not to get caught up in that. Both the OT and Jesus say "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". (If you haven't noticed, I've been studying up on the OT and trying to figure out my problems with it).

It's also not just the "church" and such. It's people who manipulate others for their own gains. People who use people like they are a product on the marketplace.

Jesus was the reality that the ceremonial law was an inferior image of. So why would Jesus be expounding on the merits of animal sacrifice. There is the conspicuous absence of a lamb in his passover supper. I realize there is a controversy about this with people obsessed with counting days and things. He called it a passover and according to whatever method he used to calculate it, it was to him the passover.

Read this, notice anything similiar?

Proverbs

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Wisdom/understanding is a carpenter, has wine and bread and tells people to come eat of it. What kind of houses do they build? They build the real churches that are within people, and that is what Jesus does with his life.

What? What does he say? I don't know what you mean so I can not be ignoring it. If you have a specific quote, feel free to cite it.

What I'm saying is there are no quotes of Jesus saying what you say at all. What he does actually say is different than what you are saying. I gave you an example - he doesn't say he came to die for peoples sins, he says he came to bring sinners to repentance.

We did not invent the crucifixion as a way to avoid being good. I realize people have abused it, like in buying indulgences. Just because the profiteers of Christianity have perverted the belief in a saviour does not mean every Christian is believing out of a perverse desire to continue indulging sick pleasures.

Many Christians are devout believers in the Father and lead good and giving lives. Believing in an external salvation does not prevent real believers from being good but should free us from the bondage of trying to be good for rewards.

Only need to deceive the good people, the bad ones could just be told the truth. Look back up to Proverbs 8:5, people with good hearts will in general do good things the majority of time. It's just their nature in general. I know many good people who don't have any understanding but do good things from their heart.

But those people would do that regardless of the bible and what we are talking about, and do so regardless of religion and such. You can find them all around the world.

It's not like I think everyone is going to hell or anything.

reply to post by jmdewey60


to understand everything, everything about jesus,
you have to understand his father he was one with...

read your scriptures and try to find out who the father is...

written is

your father is one. (Deut, Isaiah)

(Mt 12:50)
"Anyone who obeys my Father in heaven is my brother or sister or mother.”

before understanding jesus life and quotes, parables,
understand who he was,
from which perspective he talked...
his perspective was:

my father is one, my father does not judge one father,
the father judges no one,
and what the son does is honoring the father, not doing anything by himself,
judgement is given to the son, but when the son is from the father,
he does not accuse, it is the law we follow when we are not one,
that accuses us.
I came in the name of my father, who is one,
if another comes in his own name, divided,
him you will receive.

Do you receive yourself as one, or yourself as divided ?

he said test the spirits if they talk frome me,
and i am one with my father,
and my father is one, life, truth.

you will fight over texts until you understand the father...
if you pick the wrong father, you pick a lot of contradiction with it.
and you can turn every text to support you, but in the end
you will contrdict yourself.

absolute truth is one, and cannot contradict itself,
anyone who searches truth in the right speed is a believer.
speed means, seeing doubts before security makes you judge.

[edit on 30-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

No bullying going on here ....just making sure Grandma is aware of the fact that ...
Believing that Jesus is the son of GOD and that he was killed for our transgressions (as the high priest who mediates between man and God for us) and that he died and rose again is ESSENTIAL for our salvation through JESUS CHRIST THE LORD ..
If we dont believe this then we cant believe anything else in the word of God because it all centers around that one important thing .
And would also mean that Jesus died in vain ..

[edit on 30-8-2009 by Simplynoone]

he did not die in vain...because he makes us one.
if we become one, we took that cross together with him.

you are remembering her the fear of hell in a way,
by saying salvation doesnt come by god but by jesus,
who is in your logic not one with god.
thats not perfect love although it is care,
so i guess it's good.